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What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

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    #182
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Rather than posting words that bare no relevance at all to what I asked, shouldn't you have answered me? Im saying you don't actually have a point of view. You saying adams may not be guilty, but yet insinuating that he is. As I say, a handy debating technique.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm clearly not saying anything you want to hear, that's for sure. Some of us feel that it's possible to challenge other people's unsupported-by-any-evidence assertions of "fact" without feeling the need to compound them with unsupported-by-any-evidence assertions of our own.

    If you feel that it's not a debate unless both sides are making stuff up, we'll agree to differ.


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    #183
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    jmayo wrote: »
    Watching mary lou macdonald, someone who has become a pretty able political performer, have to come out in the last week and explain why her party leader was landquishing in a jail cell and police interview room was pretty embarassing.

    Damned embarrassing for the PSNI anyway.


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    #184
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    So he's guilty enough to be questioned, but not guilty enough to be charged (as in he was released). Back to this half guilty theory again alastair?
    alastair wrote: »
    Not that this should need explaining, but...

    He's saying that there's evidence and accusations of his involvement in a murder. That evidence, and those accusations may be accurate or otherwise. You don't need any presumption of guilt to investigate on the evidence and accusations presented - just like you wouldn't in any other police investigation.


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    #185
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    maccored wrote: »
    Damned embarrassing for the PSNI anyway.

    +1

    The Gardai could arrest and detain any one of a number of the previous Fianna Fail government for crimes alleged on the basis of exactly the same type of 'evidence' the PSNI proceeded on.
    Hearsay from former members,
    What has been written in books about them.

    But they wouldn't because quite simply and correctly you need more than the above.


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    #186
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    +1

    The Gardai could arrest and detain any one of a number of the previous Fianna Fail government for crimes alleged on the basis of exactly the same type of 'evidence' the PSNI proceeded on.
    Hearsay from former members,
    What has been written in books about them.

    But they wouldn't because quite simply and correctly you need more than the above.


    Rubbish, complete garbage.

    Can you link me to one law that the FF government broke. All they are guilty of is stupid, ignorant decision-making, it is enough to make me never vote for them again, unfortunately, it was all legal.

    As for Adams, let us see what comes out. what he should be most afraid of is the civil suit from the McConvilles, lesser standard of proof required.


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    #187
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The analysis of historical 'evidence' by some on here is what gets major research and record projects closed down.
    The lack of critical thinking and objectivity and the unconscious (or maybe not) bias evident here is exactly what led to the now useless archive at Boston College being closed down.
    That project has only served to undermine completely any future attempts to record what actually happened during the conflict.
    There has been an attempt to re-write history and thankfully the authors have been spectacularly found out. But the damage they have done is far reaching indeed.
    When it becomes clear (when the PPS adjudicates ) that there isn't any evidence to convict Adams of membership or involvement in Jean McConville's death, as it seems clear they will, is it not high time that this forum and website reviews what posters are allowed to allege about him?

    A decision not to prosecute is not confirmation of innocence, neither is an acquittal.

    The Scottish jurisdiction allows a jury to record a verdict of not proven for cases where the allegation is sound but the evidence is not quite enough to convince. To me that is the very least one can conclude about Adams' IRA membership.


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    #188
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    A decision not to prosecute is not confirmation of innocence, neither is an acquittal.

    The Scottish jurisdiction allows a jury to record a verdict of not proven for cases where the allegation is sound but the evidence is not quite enough to convince. To me that is the very least one can conclude about Adams' IRA membership.

    That is not what I was talking about. What I was asking is, is it okay on Boards.ie to make allegations about somebody, who hasn't been found guilty of those allegations in a a court of law anywhere?
    We aren't in Scotland as far as I have noticed btw.


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    #189
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That is not what I was talking about. What I was asking is, is it okay on Boards.ie to make allegations about somebody, who hasn't been found guilty of those allegations in a a court of law anywhere?
    We aren't in Scotland as far as I have noticed btw.

    On this one, I think we are quite safe. Many newspapers, magazines, radio stations, TV stations, internet boards, blogs and dogs in the street have stated their belief that Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA yet he has yet to take one case against any of them. Has he something to hide?

    Somehow I think a boards.ie poster would be way down his list.


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    #190
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That is not what I was talking about. What I was asking is, is it okay on Boards.ie to make allegations about somebody, who hasn't been found guilty of those allegations in a a court of law anywhere?
    Of course it is. "The reality hasn't gone away, you know." I'll also keep reminding people that OJ Simpson murdered his wife. Honestly, you really expect people to ignore the obvious on the back of a court case failing?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    We aren't in Scotland as far as I have noticed btw.
    Well spotted.:rolleyes:


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    #191
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    So he's guilty enough to be questioned, but not guilty enough to be charged (as in he was released). Back to this half guilty theory again alastair?

    He's not guilty until proven so in a court of law, but that neither means there wasn't enough evidence to question him, nor does his release mean he won't be charged. Now, outside the legal process - is he culpable in the murder of McConville? Of course he is - he was a senior IRA figure in Belfast when she was murdered by the organisation he helped lead. That's more than enough for me to make up my mind.


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    #192
    gsp119
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭gsp119


    I'd have to see a picture of him in a balaclava to be sure :-)


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    #193
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    alastair wrote: »
    He's not guilty until proven so in a court of law, but that neither means there wasn't enough evidence to question him, nor does his release mean he won't be charged. Now, outside the legal process - is he culpable in the murder of McConville? Of course he is - he was a senior IRA figure in Belfast when she was murdered by the organisation he helped lead. That's more than enough for me to make up my mind.


    He is as culpable in the McConville murder as Sean Fitzpatrick is culpable in the banking mess this country got itself in.

    Anyone who wants to argue for Adams innocence can use Sean Fitzpatrick's acquittal in support of their case.


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    #194
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    He is as culpable in the McConville murder as Sean Fitzpatrick is culpable in the banking mess this country got itself in.

    Anyone who wants to argue for Adams innocence can use Sean Fitzpatrick's acquittal in support of their case.

    And here is the Mod warning on the thread about the trial.
    Mod Note: DO NOT start making accusations against people. It shouldn't have to be said, but several posts have already been deleted. Stick to facts and not conspiracies.

    I have never seen one in relation to Sinn Fein or Gerry Adams on here, which speaks for itself.


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    #195
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I have never seen one in relation to Sinn Fein or Gerry Adams on here, which speaks for itself.

    Thing is - there's no conspiracy suggested here. The facts are that Adams was a senior IRA figure in Belfast, at the exact time that senior IRA figures in Belfast ordered the murder of Jean McConville.

    That's why it speaks for itself. For other instances see OJ Simpson, and Jimmy Saville.


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    #196
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,152 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    timtime wrote: »
    why not go back to the 1920s ,1970s bad IRA 1920s good IRA, yeah?

    Well as far as I know, most of the political leaders of the early part of this state, who were ex IRA, didn't deny they were actually involved in the armed conflict.

    Oh and as far as I know, or anyone else for that matter, neither did they hide paedophiles within their family.
    maccored wrote: »
    Damned embarrassing for the PSNI anyway.

    Yeah it is so embarassing for a police force to bring in a suspect in a murder enquiry in for questioning.
    And yes he is suspected of being involved.
    Oh and to boot he actually asked to be questioned.

    FFS could anyone else see any other party leader in this country being dragged in for questioning in a kindapping and murder enquiry.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    +1

    The Gardai could arrest and detain any one of a number of the previous Fianna Fail government for crimes alleged on the basis of exactly the same type of 'evidence' the PSNI proceeded on.
    Hearsay from former members,
    What has been written in books about them.

    But they wouldn't because quite simply and correctly you need more than the above.

    Bad an all as the likes of bertie and biffo were, as far as I know, neither of them have been implicated in the abduction and murder of a widow with 10 kids.
    And yes I will keep dragging this inconvenient truth up, neither of them has helped harbour a paedophile in their family to the best of my knowledge.

    Lets just face facts the moral and ethical qualifications to be leader of sinn fein are a hell of a lot less than those of any other party.

    I guess that's what you get when you are the leader of a party that spent decades coming out and condoning the slaughter of women and kids in shopping centres and the like.


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    #197
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And here is the Mod warning on the thread about the trial.



    I have never seen one in relation to Sinn Fein or Gerry Adams on here, which speaks for itself.

    I am still waiting for an explanation as to why Gerry Adams has never sued any of the many TV stations and newspapers that have accused him of IRA membership?


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    #198
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Thing is - there's no conspiracy suggested here. The facts are that Adams was a senior IRA figure in Belfast, at the exact time that senior IRA figures in Belfast ordered the murder of Jean McConville.

    That's why it speaks for itself. For other instances see OJ Simpson, and Jimmy Saville.

    Would I be allowed to accuse Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson of being members of a paramilitary organisation on the basis of the same evidence you have?


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    #199
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    jmayo wrote: »
    Yeah it is so embarassing for a police force to bring in a suspect in a murder enquiry in for questioning.
    And yes he is suspected of being involved.
    Oh and to boot he actually asked to be questioned.

    He did not asked to be questioned in the middle of an election. 96 hours and they hadnt a thing to throw at him - thats embarrassing.


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    #200
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    I am still waiting for an explanation as to why Gerry Adams has never sued any of the many TV stations and newspapers that have accused him of IRA membership?

    Because imo he values the peace process more than personal gain. You really need to listen, actually listen to what he said on his release. Rather than incriminate or be angry, he spoke about his place in the process and about the future.
    A campaign in the courts would only damage what is (as we seen quite clearly) fragile peace.


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    #201
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    alastair wrote: »
    He's not guilty until proven so in a court of law, but that neither means there wasn't enough evidence to question him, nor does his release mean he won't be charged. Now, outside the legal process - is he culpable in the murder of McConville?

    here we go again. Hes not guilty but he's not innocent. Seems to be lost on you that there isnt enough to even get him onto a court.
    Of course he is - he was a senior IRA figure in Belfast when she was murdered by the organisation he helped lead. That's more than enough for me to make up my mind.

    Of course he was? SHouldnt you have given the facts you use to make that decision to the PSNI last week? As far as I can tell, they would have loved you if you could prove any of the waffle you are currently cooking.


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    #202
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Would I be allowed to accuse Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson of being members of a paramilitary organisation on the basis of the same evidence you have?

    If you had the same evidence - of course. Feel free to throw up anything Ulster Resistance you have, but neither Paisley or Robinson dispute their involvement in that organisation, so I'm not sure what surprise that would be to anyone.


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    #203
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Because imo he values the peace process more than personal gain.
    LOL. Quite how does him standing over his good name impede the peace process?


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    #204
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    So you have evidence of Adams being in the IRA? What world are you living in?
    alastair wrote: »
    If you had the same evidence - of course. Feel free to throw up anything Ulster Resistance you have, but neither Paisley or Robinson dispute their involvement in that organisation, so I'm not sure what surprise that would be to anyone.


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    #205
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    He did not asked to be questioned in the middle of an election. 96 hours and they hadnt a thing to throw at him - thats embarrassing.

    You don't know what they might have to throw at him.


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    #206
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    So you have evidence of Adams being in the IRA? What world are you living in?

    The real world - feel free to review the thread for the evidence.


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    #207
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Hey, I could be like some on here and pretend I know things - like that Adams was in the IRA etc. My brain tell me that if they could have charged him with anything to do with the case or IRA membership, they would have.
    alastair wrote: »
    You don't know what they might have to throw at him.


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    #208
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    Of course he was? SHouldnt you have given the facts you use to make that decision to the PSNI last week? As far as I can tell, they would have loved you if you could prove any of the waffle you are currently cooking.

    No waffle needed. He's implicated himself, as has Seán Mac Stíofáin.


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    #209
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    You mean gossip? Sorry. Thats just not how law, order and justice works.
    alastair wrote: »
    The real world - feel free to review the thread for the evidence.


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    #210
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Adams implicated himself? Man, you get better every post. As I say - you should go to the PSNI with your gossip ... I mean information, or Adams' IRA membership. Whats that? You cant as you have absolutely no proof? Well .... I never ...
    alastair wrote: »
    No waffle needed. He's implicated himself, as has Seán Mac Stíofáin.


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    #211
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    Hey, I could be like some on here and pretend I know things - like that Adams was in the IRA etc. My brain tell me that if they could have charged him with anything to do with the case or IRA membership, they would have.

    Why would they? Everyone knows he was in the IRA - as was McGuinness post '74. There's nothing to be gained by dragging that farce into the courts.


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