What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

maccored

I think alastair is starting to believe himself at this stage

Happyman42 wrote: »

But they'll arrest and question him for four days in the middle of an election campaign?

You are making eminent sense alright.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

But they'll arrest and question him for four days in the middle of an election campaign?

In relation to a murder investigation - yes.

Dazzler88

alastair wrote: »

In relation to a murder investigation - yes.

And then release him without charge????

Fuzzy Clam

maccored wrote: »

Also if you're at a funeral too. Many people wear white shirts, black ties to funerals.

And berets?

Godge

maccored wrote: »

in your eyes just what is this thread? To me its full of unfounded allegations and gossip, but to you it seems its the Thread of All Truths or something. "but don't pretend to know what you're talking about if you haven't" ... oh my my.

Come up with some provable proof of Adams IRA membership or admit you dont have any.

This is not a court of law, nothing has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Have a read of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Adams#Arrest_and_allegations_of_IRA_membership_and_activities

"Adams has stated repeatedly that he has never been a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA).[28] However, authors such as Ed Moloney, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban and historian Richard English have all named Adams as part of the IRA leadership since the 1970s.[29][30][31][32] Adams has denied Moloney's claims, calling them "libellous".[33] At a dinner for his Fine Gael party on 29 September 2012, Taoiseach Enda Kenny accused Adams of having not only been a member of the IRA, but a member of the Army Council, calling for Adams to "be absolutely truthful about this" in response to Adams' calls for a truth and reconciliation commission in Northern Ireland.[34]

Former IRA member Sean O'Callaghan has claimed he was at an IRA Revolutionary Council meeting in 1983 which was also attended by Adams. O'Callaghan gave his account in testimony to the High Court in Dublin.[35] Former IRA members Anthony McIntyre and Richard O’Rawe have claimed Adams was a key figure in the IRA. Adams said "I’m very, very clear about my denial of IRA membership but I don’t disassociate myself from the IRA.”[36] Former IRA member Peter Rogers has alleged that Adams and his Sinn Féin colleague Martin McGuinness ordered Rogers to transport explosives to Great Britain in 1980. Sinn Féin said Rogers' allegations were untrue. Rogers was jailed for the 1980 killing of Detective Garda Seamus Quaid in the Irish Republic, and was later released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.[37][38] Father Gerry Reynolds, who facilitated secret meetings between SDLP leader John Hume and Adams, has said that asking Adams about his IRA membership “is such a stupid question” as the IRA was “a secret society and the raison d’etre of the secret society is that it is secret”.[39]

In 2003, using parliamentary privilege, the then DUP MP Iris Robinson claimed that Adams was involved in the 1978 IRA La Mon restaurant bombing. Adams denied the allegation and said the remarks were made to deflect attention away from developments in the Stevens Inquiry into collusion.[40]

Former Belfast IRA commander Brendan Hughes has named Adams as ordering the murder and secret burial of Jean McConville in 1972.[41] Jean McConville is one of the 16 "Disappeared" who were abducted and killed by the Provisional IRA during The Troubles.[42] Former republican prisoner Evelyn Gilroy, who was active in Divis where Jean McConville was abducted, says that Adams was the only person in the position to order the murder.[43] Among the abductors of McConville was Dolours Price, who has claimed that she did so on the orders of Adams.[44] Hughes and Price also claimed that Adams was involved in approving IRA bomb attacks in London in the early 1970s.[44][45] Former Garda Detective Superintendent PJ Browne has claimed that Adams was "the leader of the psychotic IRA unit in Belfast in the early 1970s".[46]"


There is certainly enough references there to say that the police are correct to investigate, correct to collect evidence, correct to arrest and question and correct to submit a file for prosecution.

Whether that further amounts to criminal proof remains to be seen. I would certainly be confidence if I was a McConville to note that civil proof requires a level of proof below that of criminal proof and I would sue Gerry Adams if I was in their position.

Son Of A Vidic

alastair wrote: »

It wouldn't. At least not for those who are prepared to throw accusations of 'political policing' at the questioning of a man implicated in a murder. And any case would be based on circumstantial evidence and testimony - there's no physical evidence likely to arise.

No physical evidence which I'll widen to no hard evidence. So of course any attempt would be based on purely speculative, circumstantial evidence. Then again the Judiciary in Northern Ireland have quite a track record, when it comes to obtaining convictions based on dodgy/flimsy evidence. So that would be no impediment.

alastair wrote: »

I'm asking the question. Not claiming you've said anything.

But why are you asking a question based on something I never spoke about?
See here....

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I would imagine the irrefutable kind that would stand up in court. Lots of hot air and wind bagging, yet no one has managed to provide any irrefutable evidence.

Now, note how I spoke only about evidence there (which no one has produced). So again, why are you asking me a question about something I never spoke about?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Still not seeing any evidence tbh. You want to question Robinson about a robbery committed by the UVF?

There is plenty of evidence of the type you are using to convict Adams.


Note 31.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=EYv8AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=peter+robinson+and+ulster+resistance&source=bl&ots=3R8cLPE6-v&sig=ZG-FGwNSLUn_ox-1C0rlzY0NYkA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nwFpU--8Hur07AbKk4GQCQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=peter%20robinson%20and%20ulster%20resistance&f=false

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence of the type you are using to convict Adams.


Note 31.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=EYv8AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=peter+robinson+and+ulster+resistance&source=bl&ots=3R8cLPE6-v&sig=ZG-FGwNSLUn_ox-1C0rlzY0NYkA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nwFpU--8Hur07AbKk4GQCQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=peter%20robinson%20and%20ulster%20resistance&f=false

One small reference in one book? Seriously?

alastair

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

No physical evidence which I'll widen to no hard evidence.

Oh there's hard evidence available - but it's testimony.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

So of course any attempt would be based on purely speculative, circumstantial evidence. Then again the Judiciary in Northern Ireland have quite a track record, when it comes to obtaining convictions based on dodgy/flimsy evidence. So that would be no impediment.

Really? What specific convictions are referring to?

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

But why are you asking a question based on something I never spoke about?
See here....


Now, note how I spoke only about evidence there (which no one has produced). So again, why are you asking me a question about something I never spoke about?

Curiosity. I take you're not prepared to give me an answer?

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence of the type you are using to convict Adams.


Note 31.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=EYv8AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=peter+robinson+and+ulster+resistance&source=bl&ots=3R8cLPE6-v&sig=ZG-FGwNSLUn_ox-1C0rlzY0NYkA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nwFpU--8Hur07AbKk4GQCQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=peter%20robinson%20and%20ulster%20resistance&f=false

That's remarkably devoid of detail, and uncorroborated by supporting evidence - unlike the evidence regarding Adams I posted. I'd love to see more though - only about another dozen or so bits of discreet supporting info and we might be getting somewhere.

maccored

nothing has to be proved? Unless you can prove it, its gossip and hearsay, and nothing more. Wiki - great source. Any actual proof though?

Godge wrote: »

This is not a court of law, nothing has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Have a read of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Adams#Arrest_and_allegations_of_IRA_membership_and_activities

"Adams has stated repeatedly that he has never been a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA).[28] However, authors such as Ed Moloney, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban and historian Richard English have all named Adams as part of the IRA leadership since the 1970s.[29][30][31][32] Adams has denied Moloney's claims, calling them "libellous".[33] At a dinner for his Fine Gael party on 29 September 2012, Taoiseach Enda Kenny accused Adams of having not only been a member of the IRA, but a member of the Army Council, calling for Adams to "be absolutely truthful about this" in response to Adams' calls for a truth and reconciliation commission in Northern Ireland.[34]

Former IRA member Sean O'Callaghan has claimed he was at an IRA Revolutionary Council meeting in 1983 which was also attended by Adams. O'Callaghan gave his account in testimony to the High Court in Dublin.[35] Former IRA members Anthony McIntyre and Richard O’Rawe have claimed Adams was a key figure in the IRA. Adams said "I’m very, very clear about my denial of IRA membership but I don’t disassociate myself from the IRA.”[36] Former IRA member Peter Rogers has alleged that Adams and his Sinn Féin colleague Martin McGuinness ordered Rogers to transport explosives to Great Britain in 1980. Sinn Féin said Rogers' allegations were untrue. Rogers was jailed for the 1980 killing of Detective Garda Seamus Quaid in the Irish Republic, and was later released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.[37][38] Father Gerry Reynolds, who facilitated secret meetings between SDLP leader John Hume and Adams, has said that asking Adams about his IRA membership “is such a stupid question” as the IRA was “a secret society and the raison d’etre of the secret society is that it is secret”.[39]

In 2003, using parliamentary privilege, the then DUP MP Iris Robinson claimed that Adams was involved in the 1978 IRA La Mon restaurant bombing. Adams denied the allegation and said the remarks were made to deflect attention away from developments in the Stevens Inquiry into collusion.[40]

Former Belfast IRA commander Brendan Hughes has named Adams as ordering the murder and secret burial of Jean McConville in 1972.[41] Jean McConville is one of the 16 "Disappeared" who were abducted and killed by the Provisional IRA during The Troubles.[42] Former republican prisoner Evelyn Gilroy, who was active in Divis where Jean McConville was abducted, says that Adams was the only person in the position to order the murder.[43] Among the abductors of McConville was Dolours Price, who has claimed that she did so on the orders of Adams.[44] Hughes and Price also claimed that Adams was involved in approving IRA bomb attacks in London in the early 1970s.[44][45] Former Garda Detective Superintendent PJ Browne has claimed that Adams was "the leader of the psychotic IRA unit in Belfast in the early 1970s".[46]"


There is certainly enough references there to say that the police are correct to investigate, correct to collect evidence, correct to arrest and question and correct to submit a file for prosecution.

Whether that further amounts to criminal proof remains to be seen. I would certainly be confidence if I was a McConville to note that civil proof requires a level of proof below that of criminal proof and I would sue Gerry Adams if I was in their position.

maccored

says the man quoting wiki

Godge wrote: »

One small reference in one book? Seriously?

maccored

Arrest any person wearing a shirt, tie and a beret! they must be in the IRA!! Jaysus .... the mind surely boggles.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

And berets?

alastair

maccored wrote: »

nothing has to be proved? Unless you can prove it, its gossip and hearsay, and nothing more. Wiki - great source. Any actual proof though?

You're not too hot on the distinction between evidence and proof, are you? Feel free to review my evidence, posted earlier, which hasn't been tainted by wiki.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

Arrest any person wearing a shirt, tie and a beret! they must be in the IRA!! Jaysus .... the mind surely boggles.

Clue - If you're in an IRA colour party, with other IRA members, at the funeral of an IRA man, wearing a uniform identical to the rest of the IRA colour party - then chances are - you're an IRA man. Now - add up all the other evidence that you're an IRA member - you can rest assured that no-one is going to doubt what role you play in that IRA colour party.

toxicity234

alastair wrote: »

They do have evidence of the same - as the wikileaks cables make clear. And just as they won't prosecute McGuinness for membership, they won't prosecute Adams.

Ok. If we accept that. what the point of this whole tread.

If Adams was in the IRA in 1972 why is it important to prove it now?
And if he was a member is it worth charging him and cause endless trouble for both Britian and Ireland.
If Mc Guinness was in the IRA why is it important to prove it now? And if he was a member is it worth charging him and cause endless trouble for both Britian and Ireland.
Is it worth charging Ian Paisley with when he resused to help with the search for a 15 year old girl he smuggled illegally to Scotland.
Is it worth Charging Paul Robinson when he and 20 Orange Order men took over a Garda station in Louth in the late 70's.
Are we going to go back and charge everyone who was involved in anything for past crimes.

Now don't get me wrong. if they proof of a major crime being committed go back and charge him but he still innocent until proven guilty.

I don't get this whole debate. For the 1st time in my life northern ireland is not looking like a war zone.
But some people want to drag up the past and start the trouble again.

I understand that the past has to be dealt with.

But with thing like the the Omagh bombing. Bloodly Sunday, the parade and loads of other more important thing to be sorted. If Adams was a member of IRA is the least important thing in the world at the moment.
If they can prove that he did something major charge him otherwise it has to be a case of innocent until proven guilty.

Godge

maccored wrote: »

nothing has to be proved? Unless you can prove it, its gossip and hearsay, and nothing more. Wiki - great source. Any actual proof though?

19 separate references, read them all to get a good picture. Wiki is only as good as the references in it. Anyone can post anything on wikipedia, we all know that, but it is when that material is supported by references elsewhere it has some standing.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

One small reference in one book? Seriously?

alastair wrote: »

That's remarkably devoid of detail, and uncorroborated by supporting evidence - unlike the evidence regarding Adams I posted. I'd love to see more though - only about another dozen or so bits of discreet supporting info and we might be getting somewhere.

Take your pick from any one of scores of sources

https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=cr&ei=SgZpU-jIF4Od7QbUpIFo#q=peter+robinson+and+ulster+resistance

here's a photo (oh my God! a photo) of him on Lebanon - Israeli border handiling an AK47. A shipment of that weapon later arrived in NI from that location.


All the same type of evidence that you are basing your claims on Adams.

alastair

toxicity234 wrote: »

Ok. If we accept that. what the point of this whole tread.

If Adams was in the IRA in 1972 why is it important to prove it now?[/QUOTE]
It's not particularly - in isolation - but in the case of the McConville murder - it becomes very important.

toxicity234 wrote: »

And if he was a member is it worth charging him and cause endless trouble for both Britian and Ireland.

Unless he's shown to have been directly involved in a specific crime - like a murder - probably not. If he has - of course.

toxicity234 wrote: »

If Mc Guinness was in the IRA why is it important to prove it now?

It's not - which is why he hasn't been charged - despite his own admission.

toxicity234 wrote: »

Is it worth charging Ian Paisley with when he resused to help with the search for a 15 year old girl he smuggled illegally to Scotland.

Probably not.

toxicity234 wrote: »

Is it worth Charging Paul Robinson when he and 20 Orange Order men took over a Garda station in Louth in the late 70's.

Trespass? That would be down to the guards. Clearly that's not going to happen.

toxicity234 wrote: »

Are we going to go back and charge everyone who was involved in anything for past crimes.
Now don't get me wrong. if they proof of a major crime being committed go back and charge him but he still innocent until proven guilty.

There's the distinction that matters.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

In relation to a murder investigation - yes.

So you are disputing what he said himself about what he was mainly questioned about and what most, if not all media is saying he was questioned about...membership.

Son Of A Vidic

alastair wrote: »

Oh there's hard evidence available - but it's testimony.

Which is not the irrefutable evidence I hoped for. Testimony does not preclude the possibility of perjury.

alastair wrote: »

Really? What specific convictions are referring to?

You seem to be totally oblivious/ignorant to the miscarriages that occurred in NI during the Troubles? Wait, sorry, I assumed you lived during the Troubles and thus understood what I was referring to. Fortunately a bit of Googling, will help you find some of the scathing condemnations that British 'justice' received from the UN and Human Rights groups during the Troubles.

alastair wrote: »

Curiosity. I take you're not prepared to give me an answer?

There should have been a subtle hint in all my posts. And that hint was irreufatable evidence - I don't have any evidence to make or back up any claims on whom I think is or isn't a member of the IRA, MI6, UVF ect.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Take your pick from any one of scores of sources

https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=cr&ei=SgZpU-jIF4Od7QbUpIFo#q=peter+robinson+and+ulster+resistance

here's a photo (oh my God! a photo) of him on Lebanon - Israeli border handiling an AK47. A shipment of that weapon later arrived in NI from that location.


All the same type of evidence that you are basing your claims on Adams.

That's Peter Robinson in Israel in 1984 - no weapons were sent from Israel to the loyalists - the weapons that did come out of the UVF bank robbery came from South Africa, didn't contain any AK47's and happened three years later. Other than that - It's Peter Robinson playing with a gun in Israel - a incident he's never hidden or disputed.

Now any actual evidence to show?

weisses

maccored wrote: »

Is this more insight into the world of alastair? Im sure if they had the proof they would have used it. Conspiracy forum is thataway ...

Not even enough presented for the ct forum I'm afraid

alastair

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Which is not the irrefutable evidence I hoped for. Testimony does not preclude the possibility of perjury.

Like I said - a court finding would not be irrefutable for some.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

You seem to be totally oblivious/ignorant to the miscarriages that occurred in NI during the Troubles? Wait, sorry, I assumed you lived during the Troubles and thus understood what I was referring to. Fortunately a bit of Googling, will help you find some of the scathing condemnations that British 'justice' received from the UN and Human Rights groups during the Troubles.

So - no specific convictions to offer?

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

There should have been a subtle hint in all my posts. And that hint was irreufatable evidence - I don't have any evidence to make or back up any claims on whom I think is or isn't a member of the IRA, MI6, UVF ect.

I note you're still not answering the question I asked. Remarkably coy tbh.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

So you are disputing what he said himself about what he was mainly questioned about and what most, if not all media is saying he was questioned about...membership.

I believe Adams is a well practiced liar and distorter of the truth - so no, I won't take his word for it.

toxicity234

alastair wrote: »

Trespass? That would be down to the guards. Clearly that's not going to happen.

Nah. They held the Two Garda for a half an hour or so. So it would be kidnapping and false imprisonment. Two Major Crimes.
It would be a rubbish charge but he did do it.

alastair wrote: »

If Adams was in the IRA in 1972 why is it important to prove it now?
It's not particularly - in isolation - but in the case of the McConville murder - it becomes very important.

Again. Its innocent until proven guilty. which make this whole debate a bit pointless. Like the Photo above doesn't prove anything about Paul Robinson holding a gun that may or may not have turned up in NI.

On the otherside of this i think the PSNI had to Question him if he was link to the McConville case. It doesn't mean he had anything to do with it.
He a high profile man and like other high profile men he is easy to remember and its easy to throw around his name.

Again its come back to the simple thing of Its innocent until proven guilty not Guilty until proven innocent.

alastair

toxicity234 wrote: »

Again. Its innocent until proven guilty.

In court - sure.

toxicity234 wrote: »

which make this whole debate a bit pointless.

Not really. People will make their own judgements.

toxicity234 wrote: »

Like the Photo above doesn't prove anything about Paul Robinson holding a gun that may or may not have turned up in NI.

It's not a photo that implicates Robinson in anything other than looking like a plonker though. It's not a gun that ever turned up in NI, he's not in the company of anyone convicted of a crime, the photo is taken years before the actual Loyalist importation of guns from SA. It's about as incriminating as that photo of Willy O'Dea with the pistol. The Gerry Adams photo however puts him in uniform with other IRA men - and when combined with the other, ample, evidence of his membership of that organisation - rather undermines his claim not to have been a member. Robinson has never disputed his involvement with UR.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

That's Peter Robinson in Israel in 1984 - no weapons were sent from Israel to the loyalists - the weapons that did come out of the UVF bank robbery came from South Africa, didn't contain any AK47's and happened three years later. Other than that - It's Peter Robinson playing with a gun in Israel - a incident he's never hidden or disputed.

Now any actual evidence to show?

The 'evidence' in relation to Peter Robinson is exactly the same type of 'evidence' you are using to convict Adams. That is the point.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

I believe Adams is a well practiced liar and distorter of the truth - so no, I won't take his word for it.

And the media reports? Are you just going to pick and choose what you want to believe?

Son Of A Vidic

alastair wrote: »

Like I said - a court finding would not be irrefutable for some.

Perhaps in another jurisdiction, but in NI? Well you'd have to take it with a pinch of salt. Especially when you consider some of the dodgy convictions in the past. Convictions that affected both sides of the community there.

alastair wrote: »

So - no specific convictions to offer?

Your apparent ignorance to the miscarriages of justice in Northern Ireland speaks volumes. I initially gave you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you were genuine and perhaps not old enough to remember them. I thus invited you to do a quick Google for yourself to find them. Which you obviously couldn't be bothered to do. And why is that I ask myself? Maybe it's because you know you will find the many and well documented condemnations of British 'justice' in NI. But that said, I don't tend engage in time wasting on this site nor hand holding. And that is what our exchange has apparently now come to. So I won't be holding your hand. Do your own homework and enlighten yourself accordingly.

alastair wrote: »

note you're still not answering the question I asked. Remarkably coy tbh.

Sorry, having an understanding of the law and possessing the cop on not to make unfounded allegations, does not make one 'coy'? And what a ridiculous assertion to make imo.

But if you do have evidence to prove that Mr. Adams was/is a member of the IRA? Then I invite you to give it to me now and I will forward it to the Gardaí, The PSNI and the legal presentation of Mr. Adams.