What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

MakeEmLaugh

I find it exhaustingly repetitive, whenever anyone mentions the fact of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, that many people are quick to jump in and say something along the lines of "If you have any evidence of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, I'd like to hear it".

Exactly what more evidence do these people need?

Let's look at this way.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS IN THE IRA

* The fact that there are photographs of Adams at an IRA funeral in Belfast in 1971, as part of the cortege, wearing an IRA uniform and standing beside Martin Meehan (a man who never denied he was a member of the IRA).



* The fact that Adams flew to England in 1972 to negotiate on behalf of the IRA during a short-lived truce, along with Martin McGuiness, Sean Mac Stiofain Daithi O'Conaill, Seamus Twomey and Ivor Bell, all of whom were in the IRA (why would all these IRA men bring a non-IRA man with them to negotiate on behalf of their organisation?).

* The fact that Adams wrote columns for An Phoblacht, the IRA's newspaper, under the pseudonym 'Brownie', and in 1976 wrote an article stating the following

"Rightly or wrongly, I am an IRA volunteer and, rightly or wrongly, I take a course of action as a means to bringing about a situation in which I believe the people of my country will prosper. The course I take involves the use of physical force, but only if I achieve the situation where my people can genuinely prosper can my course of action be seen, by me, to have been justified . . . I cannot complain if I am hurt, if I am killed or if I am imprisoned. I must consider these things as possible and probable eventualities . . . I have no one to blame but myself."

* The fact that Mario Biaggi, a former US Representative and Roman Catholic of Italian descent, maintains that Gerry Adams refused any suggestions of an IRA truce in 1979, when they met in the Europa Hotel in Belfast in 1979. (Again, why would a man who claims to have never been a member of the IRA refuse any suggestions of an IRA truce? And why would Biaggi, with no dog in the hunt on either side, lie about such an event?)

* The fact that historians and journalists (Ed Moloney, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban, Richard English) have repeatedly stated that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, and not a single one has ever been sued by Adams.

* The fact that former IRA members such as Sean O'Callaghan, Anthony McIntrye, Brendan Hughes, Richard O'Rawe and Sean Mac Stiofain have all said that Adams was in the IRA.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS NOT IN THE IRA

* Adams says he wasn't.


As far as I am concerned, anyone at this stage who asks for evidence of Adams' IRA membership is one of either two things

(1) Obstinate, and refusing to admit that they believe Adams was a member of the IRA because they are glad he got away with it.
(2) Genuinely unintelligent.

Or perhaps someone could suggest what magical, hitherto-unseen evidence we need to prove Adams was in the IRA?

comongethappy

I'm not sure this needs a separate thread?

I wasn't aware anyone on this island genuinely believes Adams was NOT in the IRA!

hatrickpatrick

I've always assumed he was in the IRA, what's news to me is that he was the leader. I always thought Adams was #2 and McGuinness was #1.

Sand

The OP should be stickied in the NI subforum as a reference for the sometimes tiresome topics on the matter. Other than that, a small, hard core element amongst Provo supporters seem to care a great deal about denying Adams was (is?) a member of the PIRA. Everyone else is sure he was. The people in denial aren't really interested in examining the evidence in an objective manner to reach a conclusion - they're not looking for any evidence.

maccored

none of those facts say anything.

your first fact is that he was at a funeral.

your second fact ignore the *actual* fact that it was a meeting with the republican movement, and not solely the IRA.

Fact three thinks you have to be in the IRA to write for an Phoblacht - which wasnt an ira newspaper .. its was an is a republican one. I used to buy it ffs, and Ive never been in the ira. nevermind that you obviously lost the context in which the brownie quote comes from. proof of encouraging IRA members maybe - but he's never denied that.

Next point - i dont know what you are saying. Adams negotiated the IRA position during the peace process too. when did he ever deny having close contact with the ira?

Second last point again doesnt really work with reality. for a start, sinn fein dont tend to sue. anyone. ever. but it'll be interesting if he is released without charge from his current location as after that he could easily sue and use the PSNI interviews as proof of his innocence.

As for the last point ... try and find someone who doesnt hate adams because of the peace process and the idea that sinn fein sold out. all youve done is pointed out people who have issues with adams and SF.

Finally - where is the actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof he was in the IRA? After all those years that the British Government was spying on everyone in the north, I'm sure they'd have proof of such a prominent activist such as Adams had he actually been an actual active IRA volunteer.

maccored

Personally I just like to have proof someone is guilty of something before I believe it. Rather than a lot of people just saying 'other people say its true, so then it must be'. You mustnt mix up justice and gossip.

Sand wrote: »

The OP should be stickied in the NI subforum as a reference for the sometimes tiresome topics on the matter. Other than that, a small, hard core element amongst Provo supporters seem to care a great deal about denying Adams was (is?) a member of the PIRA. Everyone else is sure he was. The people in denial aren't really interested in examining the evidence in an objective manner to reach a conclusion - they're not looking for any evidence.

Villain

Sand wrote: »

The OP should be stickied in the NI subforum as a reference for the sometimes tiresome topics on the matter. Other than that, a small, hard core element amongst Provo supporters seem to care a great deal about denying Adams was (is?) a member of the PIRA. Everyone else is sure he was. The people in denial aren't really interested in examining the evidence in an objective manner to reach a conclusion - they're not looking for any evidence.

I'm not a hardcore Provo supporter and I'm not sure he was so that "Everyone else" you use is incorrect.

MakeEmLaugh

maccored wrote: »

none of those facts say anything.

your first fact is that he was at a funeral.

your second fact ignore the *actual* fact that it was a meeting with the republican movement, and not solely the IRA.

Fact three thinks you have to be in the IRA to write for an Phoblacht - which wasnt an ira newspaper .. its was an is a republican one. I used to buy it ffs, and Ive never been in the ira. nevermind that you obviously lost the context in which the brownie quote comes from. proof of encouraging IRA members maybe - but he's never denied that.

Next point - i dont know what you are saying. Adams negotiated the IRA position during the peace process too. when did he ever deny having close contact with the ira?

Second last point again doesnt really work with reality. for a start, sinn fein dont tend to sue. anyone. ever. but it'll be interesting if he is released without charge from his current location as after that he could easily sue and use the PSNI interviews as proof of his innocence.

As for the last point ... try and find someone who doesnt hate adams because of the peace process and the idea that sinn fein sold out. all youve done is pointed out people who have issues with adams and SF.

Finally - where is the actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof he was in the IRA? After all those years that the British Government was spying on everyone in the north, I'm sure they'd have proof of such a prominent activist such as Adams had he actually been an actual active IRA volunteer.

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

As far as I am concerned, anyone at this stage who asks for evidence of Adams' IRA membership is one of either two things

(1) Obstinate, and refusing to admit that they believe Adams was a member of the IRA because they are glad he got away with it.
(2) Genuinely unintelligent.

Or perhaps someone could suggest what magical, hitherto-unseen evidence we need to prove Adams was in the IRA?

This is exactly the type of person I was talking about.

Not only does he fail to mention what "actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof" would be needed to prove Adams was in the IRA, he also seems unable to read properly.

No one said reading An Phoblacht, or even writing for An Phoblacht, made you an IRA member. However, if you write a column stating "I am an IRA volunteer", erm... yeah, I think that's reason enough to believe that someone might be in the IRA.

Also, there's a big difference between attending a funeral as a ordinarily dressed punter, and standing alongside an IRA member, dressed in an identical IRA uniform.

Tramps Like Us

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I find it exhaustingly repetitive, whenever anyone mentions the fact of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, that many people are quick to jump in and say something along the lines of "If you have any evidence of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, I'd like to hear it".

Exactly what more evidence do these people need?

Let's look at this way.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS IN THE IRA

* The fact that there are photographs of Adams at an IRA funeral in Belfast in 1971, as part of the cortege, wearing an IRA uniform and standing beside Martin Meehan (a man who never denied he was a member of the IRA).

This is not evidence of anything other than Adams being a republican. Many people have been in colour parties over the years, this does not mean that they were in the IRA (in fact most of the time it means they are not!)

* The fact that Adams flew to England in 1972 to negotiate on behalf of the IRA during a short-lived truce, along with Martin McGuiness, Sean Mac Stiofain Daithi O'Conaill, Seamus Twomey and Ivor Bell, all of whom were in the IRA (why would all these IRA men bring a non-IRA man with them to negotiate on behalf of their organisation?).

They went on behalf of the republican movement. Adams presumably went as a rep of Sinn Féin and the younger northern leadersip. Sean Mac Stiofáin was annoyed at the time (as he says in his book) that "non military" people were included.

* The fact that Adams wrote columns for An Phoblacht, the IRA's newspaper, under the pseudonym 'Brownie', and in 1976 wrote an article stating the following


"Rightly or wrongly, I am an IRA volunteer and, rightly or wrongly, I take a course of action as a means to bringing about a situation in which I believe the people of my country will prosper. The course I take involves the use of physical force, but only if I achieve the situation where my people can genuinely prosper can my course of action be seen, by me, to have been justified . . . I cannot complain if I am hurt, if I am killed or if I am imprisoned. I must consider these things as possible and probable eventualities . . . I have no one to blame but myself."

I have a couple of coloumns for An Phoblacht. And have sold the damn thing (nowadays you can buy it in every newsagent around the country). You should also be aware that many people wrote under the pseudonym "Brownie" in APRN and articles were a collaborative effort from those in jail.(including Brendan Hughes and others in "Cage 11" in Long Kesh)

* The fact that historians and journalists (Ed Moloney, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban, Richard English) have repeatedly stated that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, and not a single one has ever been sued by Adams.

So if I accuse you of being something and you dont sue me it means its true?

* The fact that former IRA members such as Sean O'Callaghan, Anthony McIntrye, Brendan Hughes, Richard O'Rawe and Sean Mac Stiofain have all said that Adams was in the IRA.

All of whom hated Adams and are/were against the peace process.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS NOT IN THE IRA

* Adams says he wasn't.


As far as I am concerned, anyone at this stage who asks for evidence of Adams' IRA membership is one of either two things

(1) Obstinate, and refusing to admit that they believe Adams was a member of the IRA because they are glad he got away with it.
(2) Genuinely unintelligent.

Or perhaps someone could suggest what magical, hitherto-unseen evidence we need to prove Adams was in the IRA?

Finally I'll ask, does anyone care if he was or not?

alastair

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

This is not evidence of anything other than Adams being a republican. Many people have been in colour parties over the years, this does not mean that they were in the IRA (in fact most of the time it means they are not!)

Of course! Because Republicans typically dress up in paramilitary uniforms and parade about in the company of similar gents who have been proven to be active IRA members. He's probably the odd one out, because they couldn't make the full complement of 'actual' 'ra men. :rolleyes:

Tramps Like Us

alastair wrote: »

Of course! Because Republicans typically dress up in paramilitary uniforms and parade about in the company of similar gents who have been proven to be active IRA members. He's probably the odd one out, because they couldn't make the full complement of 'actual' 'ra men. :rolleyes:

Most republicans will have been in a color party at some time or another. I have been and if you accuse me of being a member of IRA on the back of that you'll be making a generous donation to a charity of my choice pretty quickly. Seen as the IRA was a SECRET army they were rarely so obliging to the RUC as to dress up and parade around bold as brass with their faces exposed for the cops to take some nice pics, note their names and follow them around - ordinary people made up these colour parties not IRA volunteers.

There are colour partys at every republican funeral, march or commemoration and there always has been.

relaxed

Key word for me is Army. Was tony Blair ever in the British army? Never caused a problem with him sending troops to Iraq, attending military funerals and events. Same for thatcher, bush, Churchill, Obama, ADAMS etc.

Unless he was running around with a gun or making Semtex bombs etc. then I don't think it's fair to say he was a in the ira

Obama ordered bin ladins execution directly I think, don't think it makes him a soldier.

BillyBoy13

I'm not a republican, and definitely not a Gerry Adams supporter.... however I would have to say out of the all the points you raised only your first point appears to carry any weight. The rest of the points are a bit wish washy.

alastair

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Most republicans will have been in a color party at some time or another. I have been and if you accuse me of being a member of IRA on the back of that you'll be making a generous donation to a charity of my choice pretty quickly. Seen as the IRA was a SECRET army they were rarely so obliging to the RUC as to dress up and parade around bold as brass with their faces exposed for the cops to take some nice pics, note their names and follow them around - ordinary people made up these colour parties not IRA volunteers.

There are colour partys at every republican funeral, march or commemoration and there always has been.

Given that the rest of this particular colour party were active and subsequently convicted IRA men, I think your theory doesn't hold much value in this case. But glad to hear you get your kicks playing soldier dress-up from time to time.

Karl Stein

If you study that photo carefully you'll note that the beret Adams is wearing is really really really dark blue instead of black.

That fact alone absolves him of all accusations of PIRA membership.

maccored

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

This is exactly the type of person I was talking about.

yay! Its another person who thinks being insulting and bullish is going to get them somewhere!

Not only does he fail to mention what "actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof" would be needed to prove Adams was in the IRA, he also seems unable to read properly.

I dont need to tell you what proof is required. What proof has been found? That'll be good enough

No one said reading An Phoblacht, or even writing for An Phoblacht, made you an IRA member. However, if you write a column stating "I am an IRA volunteer", erm... yeah, I think that's reason enough to believe that someone might be in the IRA.

So he couldnt have been writing a piece in order to boost morale? or would everything he would have written have to be absolutely true, and based on himself? Whats next, arresting every author who wrote a crimes story?

Also, there's a big difference between attending a funeral as a ordinarily dressed punter, and standing alongside an IRA member, dressed in an identical IRA uniform.

He never denied mixing with IRA people - thats why you;d find him at an ira funeral near ira people. The IRA didnt have a 'uniform'.

Phoebas

There isn't a person in the country who doesn't believe Adams wasn't in the IRA. Even the people who deny ^^ it do it in a playful way, with the most unbelievable arguments that most normal people would immediately dismiss.

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

Of course! Because Republicans typically dress up in paramilitary uniforms and parade about in the company of similar gents who have been proven to be active IRA members. He's probably the odd one out, because they couldn't make the full complement of 'actual' 'ra men. :rolleyes:

My uncle was buried in Athlone January 2013.
He was a well known member of Sinn Fein, he was not, ever, a member of the IRA. During his funeral he was given a guard of honour by local Sinn Fein members, none of which were members of the IRA, all of who wore colours (beret, sweater, shirt, tie and slacks and black shoes).
Do you think people would march in colours so openly if it was such an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation?
Don't be so daft.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

My uncle was buried in Athlone January 2013.
He was a well known member of Sinn Fein, he was not, ever, a member of the IRA. During his funeral he was given a guard of honour by local Sinn Fein members, none of which were members of the IRA, all of who wore colours (beret, sweater, shirt, tie and slacks and black shoes).
Do you think people would march in colours so openly if it was such an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation?
Don't be so daft.

And yet - of the three men in that photo, two are proven, convicted members of the IRA, and the other is the well known Gerry Adams - a self confessed 'IRA volunteer' according to his piece in AP, who other admitted IRA members state was Indeed an IRA member, and who was understood by Willy Whitelaw to have been part of an IRA delegation he met in '73. Either all of these facts are remarkable coincidental mistaken beliefs, or it's just there's a third IRA man in that particular 'colour party'.

twowheelsgood

Phoebas wrote: »

There isn't a person in the country who doesn't believe Adams wasn't in the IRA. Even the people who deny ^^ it do it in a playful way, with the most unbelievable arguments that most normal people would immediately dismiss.

What's bizarre is that is makes no sense to deny that Adams was in the 'RA if you believe that the activities of the PIRA were, in the main, justified.

If they insist that the actions of the IRA were justified and observe that Adams fully endorsed the actions of the IRA then Adams being in the IRA would be a perfectly acceptable, even noble position for him to take to take.

That there are some republicans, who in heady mix of confusion and hilarity, actual take umbrage at the suggestion that Adams was a "member" and amusingly suggest that to say so might be libellous (:pac:) suggests to me that they don't truly believe that the activities of the IRA were in fact justified, despite their protestations to the contrary.

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

And yet - of the three men in that photo, two are proven, convicted members of the IRA, and the other is the well known Gerry Adams - a self confessed 'IRA volunteer' according to his piece in AP, who other admitted IRA members state was Indeed an IRA member, and who was understood by Willy Whitelaw to have been part of an IRA delegation he met in '73. Either all of these facts are remarkable coincidental mistaken beliefs, or it's just there's a third IRA man in that particular 'colour party'.

So because some members of a funeral colour party are members of the IRA that must mean all members of colour parties are members of the IRA.

Genius logic there, well done.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

So because some members of a funeral colour party are members of the IRA that must mean all members of colour parties are members of the IRA.

Genius logic there, well done.

Who claimed any such thing? All sorts of idiots like playing dress-up in uniform. Just because none of the Shinners wearing berets at your da's funeral may not have been IRA men, doesn't mean that they were not in that photo. They in fact were, and there's ample discreet, independent, evidence that Adams was too.

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

Just because none of the Shinners wearing berets at your da's funeral may not have been IRA men, doesn't mean that they were not in that photo. They in fact were, and there's ample discreet, independent, evidence that Adams was too.

Do you even bother to read posts. Uncle's funeral.
My father, a retired member of the Permanent Defence Forces, is very much alive.
If you're going to call other people "idiots" I suggest you master the comprehension of the English language first.

Phoebas

Seaneh wrote: »

My uncle was buried in Athlone January 2013.
He was a well known member of Sinn Fein, he was not, ever, a member of the IRA. During his funeral he was given a guard of honour by local Sinn Fein members, none of which were members of the IRA, all of who wore colours (beret, sweater, shirt, tie and slacks and black shoes).
Do you think people would march in colours so openly if it was such an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation?
Don't be so daft.

So the people who weren't members of the secret paramilitary organisation were dressed in the garb normally associated with that organisation at a republican funeral, but, if they were really members of a secret paramilitary organisation they wouldn't be turning up dressed in paramilitary garb because that would be an obvious indicator of membership?

If I'm to understand you, what you say is an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation (turning up at a republican funeral dressed in paramilitary garb) is, in fact, an obvious indicator of not being a member of that organisation, because its just too damn obvious.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

Do you even bother to read posts. Uncle's funeral.
My father, a retired member of the Permanent Defence Forces, is very much alive.

Correction - your uncle's funeral. My point stands however.

As to comprehension of the English language - I'm not the one rolling out misattributed straw man arguments.

Seaneh

Phoebas wrote: »

So the people who weren't members of the secret paramilitary organisation were dressed in the garb normally associated with that organisation at a republican funeral, but, if they were really members of a secret paramilitary organisation they wouldn't be turning up dressed in paramilitary garb because that would be an obvious indicator of membership?

If I'm to understand you, what you say is an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation (turning up at a republican funeral dressed in paramilitary garb) is, in fact, an obvious indicator of not being a member of that organisation, because its just too damn obvious.

I, as a previous poster has also said, am saying that participation in a colour party at a funeral is not an indication of membership of an illegal organisation.

If it was indication of membership of an illegal organisation, it would be an astoundingly stupid thing to do in the centre on a major urban centre, less than 100 meters from a Garda Barracks.

It would be like a drug dealer walking around shouting "look at me, I sell heroin, please monitor my movements Mr. Gardai Man!".

The garbs normally associated with IRA members are khaki fatigues by the way, not shirts, ties and berets.

Phoebas

Seaneh wrote: »

I, as a previous poster has also said, am saying that participation in a colour party at a funeral is not an indication of membership of an illegal organisation.

If it was indication of membership of an illegal organisation, it would be an astoundingly stupid thing to do in the centre on a major urban centre, less than 100 meters from a Garda Barracks.

It would be like a drug dealer walking around shouting "look at me, I sell heroin, please monitor my movements Mr. Gardai Man!".

Of course participation in a colour party at a funeral is an indication of membership of an illegal organisation. Its not concrete proof for sure, but a pretty strong indication.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

I, as a previous poster has also said, am saying that participation in a colour party at a funeral is not an indication of membership of an illegal organisation.

If it was indication of membership of an illegal organisation, it would be an astoundingly stupid thing to do in the centre on a major urban centre, less than 100 meters from a Garda Barracks.

It would be like a drug dealer walking around shouting "look at me, I sell heroin, please monitor my movements Mr. Gardai Man!".

A colour party is a representation of a (para)military organisation. That's the intent. Now not all participants in said representation might be actual members, but rather the kind of idiot that would pass themselves off as a proxy for said organisation, but in some cases - as in the photo with Adams - they are actual members of said (para)military organisation. So your drug dealer analogy makes little sense.

Seaneh

Just to illustrate something that is ridiculously obvious to those without the cognitive ability to figure it out for themselves, here's the difference between members of an illegal organisation at a funeral and members of a colour party at a funeral, note the difference in attire and facial coverings (or lack thereof).

IRA members at a funeral:


Gerry Adams at a funeral:



I hope this helps you get over your mental block.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

IRA members at a funeral:

Edited for accuracy.

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

Edited for accuracy.

Yup, definitely looks like he's dressed as a member of a military organisation.

Blazer, shirt, tie, beret... Next time I see a black rock boy in a beret I'll make sure to be cautious around him.

:rolleyes:

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

A colour party is a representation of a (para)military organisation. That's the intent.

Anything to back that up? Because, to be honest, you're pulling that squarely out of the orifice most of your posts in this thread read like they are coming from.

Phoebas

Seaneh wrote: »

Just to illustrate something that is ridiculously obvious to those without the cognitive ability to figure it out for themselves, here's the difference between members of an illegal organisation at a funeral and members of a colour party at a funeral, note the difference in attire and facial coverings (or lack thereof).

IRA members at a funeral:


Gerry Adams at a funeral:



I hope this helps you get over your mental block.

(Ignoring the insults - I don't understand what you think they add), the photo posted earlier (is it the same funeral?) of Adams in a 'colour party' includes confirmed IRA members in the same party.
Nobody is saying that membership of a colour party == membership of the IRA; only that it is an indication in that direction.

Crooked Jack

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

This is not evidence of anything other than Adams being a republican. Many people have been in colour parties over the years, this does not mean that they were in the IRA (in fact most of the time it means they are not!)


They went on behalf of the republican movement. Adams presumably went as a rep of Sinn Féin and the younger northern leadersip. Sean Mac Stiofáin was annoyed at the time (as he says in his book) that "non military" people were included.


I have a couple of coloumns for An Phoblacht. And have sold the damn thing (nowadays you can buy it in every newsagent around the country). You should also be aware that many people wrote under the pseudonym "Brownie" in APRN and articles were a collaborative effort from those in jail.(including Brendan Hughes and others in "Cage 11" in Long Kesh)


So if I accuse you of being something and you dont sue me it means its true?

All of whom hated Adams and are/were against the peace process.


Finally I'll ask, does anyone care if he was or not?

Exactly. The question isnt if Adams was or wasnt in the IRA, the question is who cares and what difference does it make?

Seaneh

By the way, the insinuation that my uncle, a play-write, social advocate, respected member of the local community and management level asset at a multi-billion euro international communications company, was a member of an Illegal organisation or that his friends from the local branch of a political party were members of an illegal organisation, is more than a little insulting to his memory and his legacy and I'd greatly appreciate if both of you would apologize for your idiotic attempts to further your failed argument.

Phoebas

Seaneh wrote: »

By the way, the insinuation that my uncle, a play-write, social advocate, respected member of the local community and management level asset at a multi-billion euro international communications company, was a member of an Illegal organisation or that his friends from the local branch of a political party were members of an illegal organisation, is more than a little insulting to his memory and his legacy and I'd greatly appreciate if both of you would apologize for your idiotic attempts to further your failed argument.

I think you're mistaking an indication - that may, or not, be true with an insinuation.

I don't think anyone is doubting your word that your uncle wasn't a terrorist - just that wearing the garb often associated with a terrorist organisation at a republican funeral might be an indicator that he was a member of the terrorist organisation.

Seaneh

Phoebas wrote: »

Nobody is saying that membership of a colour party == membership of the IRA; only that it is an indication in that direction.

Nobody is offering any evidence of this being reality beyond their own say so.
A man who has been involved in them himself and I myself have offered our personal knowledge to the contrary.
We can't prove a negative, if you're going to continue to insist that partaking in a funeral colour party implies membership of an illegal paramilitary organisation then the ownness is on you to prove it.

Pointing out that some members of a specific colour party were members of an illegal organisation does not imply any of the following:
That all members of that specific colour party were also members of illegal organisations
That members of all colour parties are likely members of illegal organisations
That membership of a colour party is an indication of possible membership of an illegal organisation.
It only proves that some members of a specific colour party were members of an illegal organisation.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

Yup, definitely looks like he's dressed as a member of a military organisation.

Blazer, shirt, tie, beret... Next time I see a black rock boy in a beret I'll make sure to be cautious around him.

:rolleyes:

The funeral is of IRA man Michael Kane - killed by his own bomb. Colour party includes Martin Meehan; convicted member of the IRA, and Paddy McAdorey 3rd battalion PIRA member. Also included is Gerry Adams - stated by a number of IRA members, to have been a member of the IRA. So - yeah the evidence is entirely down to headwear fashion choices. :rolleyes:

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

The funeral is of IRA man Michael Kane - killed by his own bomb. Colour party includes Martin Meehan; convicted member of the IRA, and Paddy McAdorey 3rd battalion PIRA member. Also included is Gerry Adams - stated by a number of IRA members, to have been a member of the IRA. So - yeah the evidence is entirely down to headwear fashion choices. :rolleyes:

Members of the republican movement, some of whom were members of the IRA, involved in the colour party at the funeral of another member of the Republican movement who was a member of the IRA.

That's all the photo you have posted shows, nothing more, nothing less.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

By the way, the insinuation that my uncle, a play-write, social advocate, respected member of the local community and management level asset at a multi-billion euro international communications company, was a member of an Illegal organisation or that his friends from the local branch of a political party were members of an illegal organisation, is more than a little insulting to his memory and his legacy and I'd greatly appreciate if both of you would apologize for your idiotic attempts to further your failed argument.

Was he wearing paramilitary garb at a funeral? The point is that the wearing of such garb places them in one of two positions - proxy representation of said illegal organisation (the idiot camp) or actual membership of an illegal organisation ( the culpable). But you can't be held accountable for your friends, so it's no reflection on anyone but those who chose to wear the garb.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

Members of the republican movement, some of whom were members of the IRA, involved in the colour party at the funeral of another member of the Republican movement who was a member of the IRA.

That's all the photo you have posted shows, nothing more, nothing less.

Well - we're making progress. Because a moment ago you claimed it wasn't a photo of IRA men at a funeral, and that it was nonsensical to suggest IRA men would show their faces in colour party uniforms.

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

Was he wearing paramilitary garb at a funeral? The point is that the wearing of ugh garden places in in one of two positions - proxy representation of said illegal organisation (the idiot camp) or actual membership of an illegal organisation ( the culpable). But you can't be held accountable for your friends, so it's no reflection on anyone but those who chose to wear the garb.

That is not, as I have pointed out, "garb" associated with membership of the IRA. The IRA wear military fatigues, not blazers, shirts and ties. The only thing in that outfit with even remote military connections if the beret.

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

Well - we're making progress. Because a moment ago you claimed it wasn't a photo of IRA men at a funeral, and that it was nonsensical to suggest IRA men would show their faces in colour party uniforms.

No, never claimed anything of the sort, please quote where you got that from?
I said that if being a member of a colour party was indicative of membership of the IRA, no members of the IRA would take part in a colour party.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

That is not, as I have pointed out, "garb" associated with membership of the IRA. The IRA wear military fatigues, not blazers, shirts and ties. The only thing in that outfit with even remote military connections if the beret.

It's a uniform, of a colour party - which by definition, is a (para)military representation. I'm pretty sure the only time an active service IRA member wore fatigues was for press purposes or funerals and other propaganda purses. Fatigues aren't much use in planting bombs or urban shootings.

Phoebas

Seaneh wrote: »

No, never claimed anything of the sort, please quote where you got that from?

Ah, for God's sake Seaneh - are ye just playing games now?

Seaneh wrote: »

Do you think people would march in colours so openly if it was such an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation?
Don't be so daft.

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

It's a uniform, of a colour party - which by definition, is a (para)military representation. I

That's your definition, which you are asserting as fact without any source, care to back that up?

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

No, never claimed anything of the sort, please quote where you got that from

here's the difference between members of an illegal organisation at a funeral and members of a colour party at a funeral, note the difference in attire and facial coverings (or lack thereof).

Seaneh wrote: »

I said that if being a member of a colour party was indicative of membership of the IRA, no members of the IRA would take part in a colour party.

A colour party is a representation of the IRA. That's the point of it.

alastair

Seaneh wrote: »

That's your definition, which you are asserting as fact without any source, care to back that up?

It's the very definition of a colour party!

Seaneh

Phoebas wrote: »

Ah, for God's sake Seaneh - are ye just playing games now?

So What I said was people wouldn't partake in a colour party if it was such a clear indication of membership of an illegal organisation.

What you you claim I said was it would be "nonsensical to suggest IRA men would show their faces in colour party uniforms".

Now, either you are so tied up in your own will to read something I never wrote, or you genuinely can't tell the difference between what I said and what you interrupted and to be frank, there comes a time when that stops being my problem.

See, I don't know what to tell you... Can you really not tell the difference between what I actually said and what you claim I said?

Really?

Seaneh

alastair wrote: »

It's the very definition of a colour party!

Where?
From who?

Should be easy for you to back up.

The brownies and scouts have colour parties, are the brownies and scouts a para-military organisation?

Kermit.de.frog

What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

Can we at least have a membership card?