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What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

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    #152
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    relaxed wrote: »
    So much for innocent until proven guilty, you should be running North Korea.


    If Adams is as innocent of directing terrorism as you and others make out, let him sue Alastair and the hundreds of newspaper articles that have labelled him as a member of the IRA. If he offers to give any winnings to the McConville family as compensation for what the IRA did to them, well then it would be interesting.


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    #153
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    relaxed wrote: »
    Maybe you should furnish us with some evidence of his being a leading member so, before making such matter of fact statements.

    A few photos from the 1970's is far from evidence of him being a leading member of the Ira in the 1980's.

    We all know he may well have been, but it's evidence you need to back up your claims with.

    Why are the 80's more important to you than the 70's?

    The evidence is all over these threads - the photos, the word of a number of his fellow volunteers, his own admission in APRN as 'Brownie', his presence in the IRA delegation to Whitelaw. My question is why do you believe he was a member without evidence?

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/04/23/gerry-adams-i-have-no-recollection-of-that-whatsoever/comment-page-1/


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    #154
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    Regardless of whether he was a member of the ira or not... He did a lot to bring the different communities north and south of the border together. Is it really necessary to jeopardise all of the god this man has done just for him to say he was a member? Only a politician with connections with the ira would have been capable of caring this out, and it didnt bother any of the political partys until Sinn Fein started gaining power both sides of the border. Now they are seen as a threat and it seems some people will go to great lengths to drag them down. Over the last 30 years we have had some right characters running this country. Very few doing anything for the greater good of its citizens. Yet the one man who managed to stop a war and bring some normality to the people north of the border is been hounded. People in this country need to cop on to reality and start seeing through the propaganda we are spoon fed everyday.


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    #155
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭bertieinexile


    alastair wrote: »

    The evidence is all over these threads - the photos, the word of a number of his fellow volunteers, his own admission in APRN as 'Brownie', his presence in the IRA delegation to Whitelaw.

    Thanks for your contribution Alastair, I think you've done a good job of highlighting the stronger pieces of evidence for Adam's IRA membership.

    The republican credentials of Adam's family predated the rejuvenation of the IRA in the seventies. He came to the Troubles with an authority that was independent of the new membership. And he seems, in his own mind, to have stayed somehow independent of the rest of the movement.

    I believe Adams role was that of directing the campaign rather than carrying out any actions himself. As far as I remember, in the novel he wrote, his character lines someone up in the sights of a rifle but doesn't pull the trigger.

    This 'directing rather than doing' is a question of semantics to most people but not, it seems, to Adams.

    It's important because now he wants to think of himself as a statesman and, looking back, wants to be able to put clear water between his own political strategising and the things he directed others to do. I really believe he sees himself as having been more of an adviser or strategist and 'the IRA' as being the ones who got their hands dirty.

    His comrades are entitled to think that this is a bit rich.

    For me the real problem is that the party, by virtue of its decision making structure and the debt it owes to Adams, isn't able to get rid of, or even reign in, a leader behaving in such a self indulgent and detrimental way.


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    #156
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    Regardless of whether he was a member of the ira or not... He did a lot to bring the different communities north and south of the border together. Is it really necessary to jeopardise all of the god this man has done just for him to say he was a member? Only a politician with connections with the ira would have been capable of caring this out, and it didnt bother any of the political partys until Sinn Fein started gaining power both sides of the border. Now they are seen as a threat and it seems some people will go to great lengths to drag them down. Over the last 30 years we have had some right characters running this country. Very few doing anything for the greater good of its citizens. Yet the one man who managed to stop a war and bring some normality to the people north of the border is been hounded. People in this country need to cop on to reality and start seeing through the propaganda we are spoon fed everyday.

    Which propaganda would that be?

    The peace process doesn't require Adams to remain in politics, and nor does avoiding arrest for membership of the IRA require Adams to lie about his membership - he can simply refuse to answer the question. But he's painted himself into the lie now for too many years. The 'greater good' doesn't require that people have t turn a blind eye to unnecessary hypocrisy - that's the choice and responsibility of the hypocrites.


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    #157
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    the propaganda of gerry adams being arrested. or how about the propaganda of fine gael and labour doing a good job and creating jobs? the peace process would have never got off the ground if Gerry Adams wasnt in politics. What good would come of it if he did admit to being a member of the ira? He would no longer be in politics and the only person who made a real effort for peace in this country would be gone. and seeming as we are talking about hypocrites. what about Eamon Gilmore and his election promises? or Enda Kenny and his broken election promisies?


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    #158
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    the propaganda of gerry adams being arrested.
    How is that propaganda? He's a suspect in a murder. What do you expect to happen?
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    or how about the propaganda of fine gael and labour doing a good job and creating jobs?
    Ahh - so anything goes in this rant?

    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    the peace process would have never got off the ground if Gerry Adams wasnt in politics.
    Maybe, maybe not, but either way - if he is guilty of culpability in a murder, does he escape the normal rules of law because of that?
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    What good would come of it if he did admit to being a member of the ira? He would no longer be in politics and the only person who made a real effort for peace in this country would be gone.
    Who said he had to admit to anything? Just not telling lies would remove some of the hypocrisy.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    and seeming as we are talking about hypocrites. what about Eamon Gilmore and his election promises? or Enda Kenny and his broken election promisies?
    And back to the irrelevant rant.


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    #159
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    nothing irrelevant or rantish about my statement

    He was arrested and released without charge which to me means they did not have any evidence against him. Then there is the other matter of membership of the ira. If they wanted to charge him with this they have had plenty of opportunity's to do this, but to wait until just before elections only serves one purpose and that is to try discredit the man.


    you asked about propaganda so i gave you some examples of it in irish politics

    you also ask if he is guilty of culpability in a murder, does he escape the normal rules of law because of that?

    the answer to that is no.... has he been found guilty with any murder?

    because somebody is arrested does not mean they have been found guilty of any crime.. nor does it mean they have committed any crime... so what does your statement have to do with gerry adams getting the peace process off the ground? all i can see it serves is to try discredit the man


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    #160
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    nothing irrelevant or rantish about my statement
    Except for the bonus irrelevance thrown in.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    He was arrested and released without charge which to me means they did not have any evidence against him.
    It might mean that to you, but that's not actually the case. You don't know what evidence they have, nor what they'll send on to the PPS.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    Then there is the other matter of membership of the ira. If they wanted to charge him with this they have had plenty of opportunity's to do this, but to wait until just before elections only serves one purpose and that is to try discredit the man.
    Who says they wanted to charge him with membership? It's a murder case they're investigating.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    you asked about propaganda so i gave you some examples of it in irish politics
    Thanks, but I was asking about the supposed propaganda related to this matter. So far you haven't identified any.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    you also ask if he is guilty of culpability in a murder, does he escape the normal rules of law because of that?

    the answer to that is no.... has he been found guilty with any murder?
    The normal rules of law is that those allegations would be investigated - a scenario you appear to be against. He hasn't been found guilty of murder, but he never could be without an investigation.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    because somebody is arrested does not mean they have been found guilty of any crime.. nor does it mean they have committed any crime... so what does your statement have to do with gerry adams getting the peace process off the ground? all i can see it serves is to try discredit the man
    An investigation into a murder is only there to discredit a man? Really?


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    #161
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    I wonder Alastair have you ever lived in Northern Ireland during the troubles?


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    #162
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    alastair wrote: »

    It might mean that to you, but that's not actually the case. You don't know what evidence they have, not what they'll send on to the PPS.
    was he charged with any crimes? you dont know what evidence they may of had to make the arrest if any!!
    alastair wrote: »
    Who says they wanted to charge him with membership? It's a murder case they're investigating.
    the title of the thread is evidence of gerry adams ira membership...also there was news reports saying he may be charged with membership of the ira
    alastair wrote: »
    Thanks, but I was asking about the supposed propaganda related to this matter. So far you haven't identified any.
    you asked about propaganda i gave examples that we see on a daily basis.
    alastair wrote: »
    The normal rules of law is that those allegations would be investigated - a scenario you appear to be against. He hasn't been found guilty of murder, but he never could be without an investigation.
    re read the post. you said if he was guilty...the facts are he hasnt been found guilty of any crime so far. why jump the gun. there are people falsely arrested everyday of the week... it doesnt mean they are guilty does it?
    alastair wrote: »
    An investigation into a murder is only there to discredit a man? Really?

    re read that post again...i said your statement serves to discredit him. besides who said he was investigated as a murderer ?


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    #163
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    there are people falsely arrested everyday of the week... it doesnt mean they are guilty does it?

    There are people released without charge every day of the week. Does that prove them innocent?


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    #164
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    There are people released without charge every day of the week. Does that prove them innocent?

    I thought people in this state enjoyed the presumption of innocence until convicted ???


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    #165
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Villain wrote: »
    I wonder Alastair have you ever lived in Northern Ireland during the troubles?

    Yes I have.


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    #166
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    alastair wrote: »
    Yes I have.

    Do you believe you would be living in a peaceful time now without Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness?


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    #167
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    was he charged with any crimes? you dont know what evidence they may of had to make the arrest if any!!
    What you know or not isn't really relevant.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    the title of the thread is evidence of gerry adams ira membership...also there was news reports saying he may be charged with membership of the ira
    I don't think the PSNI referred to the title of this thread in arresting him. Have the PSNI said they were considering charging him with membership?
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    you asked about propaganda i gave examples that we see on a daily basis.
    I asked about the propaganda relating to this issue.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    re read the post. you said if he was guilty...
    No I did not.
    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    re read that post again...i said your statement serves to discredit him. besides who said he was investigated as a murderer ?
    It's a murder investigation.


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    #168
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Villain wrote: »
    I thought people in this state enjoyed the presumption of innocence until convicted ???

    Yes. In law. I'm not talking about their legal presumption of innocence; I'm talking about whether or not being released without charge is incontrovertible proof that the detainee had no hand, act nor part in whatever they were questioned about.

    Of course, you know perfectly well that that's what I meant, but don't let that hold you back.


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    #169
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Villain wrote: »
    Do you believe you would be living in a peaceful time now without Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness?
    Really? You want to talk about fantasy possible futures?

    I think that the greatest extender of the troubles was the IRA. I thank John Hume for finally talking sense into Adams, long after everyone else figured out that the 'long war' was futile, counter-productive, cruel, and, not that it mattered a whit to SF beforehand, entirely undemocratic.


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    #170
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    alastair wrote: »
    What you know or not isn't really relevant.
    alastair wrote: »
    yes it is you insist that he is a murderer or if you insist he is a member of the ira
    alastair wrote: »
    I don't think the PSNI referred to the title of this thread in arresting him. Have the PSNI said they were considering charging him with membership?
    there was consideration
    alastair wrote: »
    I asked about the propaganda relating to this issue.
    alastair wrote: »
    you asked which propaganda would that be. i didnt see to this issue in your comment
    alastair wrote: »
    No I did not.
    my apologies but you did say" if" ... so you asked a hypothetical question and i reminded you that he was not charged with any crime
    alastair wrote: »
    It's a murder investigation.
    do the cops not interview witnesses or other people who might help them in their inquiries ? if he was released without charge it would suggest that if they did believe he committed murder, then there evidence was extremely weak to do so.


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    #171
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes. In law. I'm not talking about their legal presumption of innocence; I'm talking about whether or not being released without charge is incontrovertible proof that the detainee had no hand, act nor part in whatever they were questioned about.

    Of course, you know perfectly well that that's what I meant, but don't let that hold you back.

    Of course if somebody is released without charge they may still have committed the crime, but unless there is at least enough evidence to charge somebody, never mind find them guilty in a court, then obviously the evidence against them is very weak so there is no reason to presume they have done anything wrong.


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    #172
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭bertieinexile


    I don't buy the argument about the timing of Adams' questioning being political or that it requires any 'dark forces'. A couple of months ago Ivor Bell was picked up and questioned in relation to this inquiry. Spotting an opportunity, Adams offered himself for questioning. The thinking being that if he was questioned about the McConville affair and released without charge he could for ever more refer to this fact whenever he was questioned about his role in her abduction. He seems to have been blindsided when the PSNI chose instead to question him about his IRA membership. But, if the DPP refuses to prosecute, things may still work out as originally planned.

    Alastair is right that in saying that what really rankles with republicans is not Adams' refusal to admit he was in the IRA. No one would expect him to oblige the authorities like that. What's wrong is that traditionally, and for very good reason, republicans have always answered by avoiding the question. You don't straight out deny and lie about the most important thing you stand for. Lying makes it seem there is something unworthy about it. You denigrate everyone's contribution that way.

    On the other hand the press treatment of McGuinness is just weird. The press want to show up Adams by contrasting him with the honest republican, McGuinness, who has admitted his membership. The reality is that McGuinness' position is even more ridiculous.
    He was caught on a BBC interview in the early 70's (now on Youtube) admitting to being the officer commanding the IRA Belfast battalion. To get past that problem McGuinness' official position is that he was a member from 1970-1974 and then he left.

    Since 1974 the IRA have had to do without the services and considerable expertise of both Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams.
    Pity that, with two boys like those around they might never have had to call a ceasefire.


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    #173
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    relaxed wrote: »
    ...there is no reason to presume they have done anything wrong.

    Who has presumed anything of the kind?

    I'm not saying Adams did anything; I'm pointing out that the same people who are pointing to his release without charge as cast-iron proof of his innocence are simultaneously claiming - without a shred of actual evidence other than "it's not completely impossible" - that it's an unquestioned fact that his arrest was politically motivated.

    Why is the burden of proof reasonable when it comes to Adams having committed any criminal acts, but non-existent when it comes to accusing the PSNI of fitting him up?


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    #174
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    So let me get this right - you arent saying anything? You arent saying he is guilty of anything, but you're also pointing that he may be? Great debating strategy as you can never be wrong.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Who has presumed anything of the kind?

    I'm not saying Adams did anything; I'm pointing out that the same people who are pointing to his release without charge as cast-iron proof of his innocence are simultaneously claiming - without a shred of actual evidence other than "it's not completely impossible" - that it's an unquestioned fact that his arrest was politically motivated.

    Why is the burden of proof reasonable when it comes to Adams having committed any criminal acts, but non-existent when it comes to accusing the PSNI of fitting him up?


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    #175
    Tramps Like Us
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Tramps Like Us


    maccored wrote: »
    So let me get this right - you arent saying anything? You arent saying he is guilty of anything, but you're also pointing that he may be? Great debating strategy as you can never be wrong.

    Clutching at straws :)


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    #176
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    So let me get this right - you arent saying anything? You arent saying he is guilty of anything, but you're also pointing that he may be? Great debating strategy as you can never be wrong.

    Not that this should need explaining, but...

    He's saying that there's evidence and accusations of his involvement in a murder. That evidence, and those accusations may be accurate or otherwise. You don't need any presumption of guilt to investigate on the evidence and accusations presented - just like you wouldn't in any other police investigation.


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    #177
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    maccored wrote: »
    So let me get this right - you arent saying anything?
    I'm clearly not saying anything you want to hear, that's for sure. Some of us feel that it's possible to challenge other people's unsupported-by-any-evidence assertions of "fact" without feeling the need to compound them with unsupported-by-any-evidence assertions of our own.

    If you feel that it's not a debate unless both sides are making stuff up, we'll agree to differ.


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    #178
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Villain wrote: »
    Do you believe you would be living in a peaceful time now without Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness?


    Yes, absolutely. There is no doubt that Northern Ireland was a sectarian state in the 1960s. It has evolved beyond that as a result of the Good Friday Agreement. While some can point to the role of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness in the GFA, there is a wider question? Would such progress have been achieved much earlier had the IRA campaign been stopped earlier.

    This in essence is the point about the GFA being Sunningdale for slow learners. There is a view out there to which I suscribe that the IRA campaign rather than hastening progress in Northern Ireland actually retarded it by entrenching positions over a period of 20 years during which the rest of Europe, including the South, saw substantial changes in thinking and more egalitarian ideas, concepts and policies to the fore.

    So not only would we living in a peaceful time now without the two lads, we would have been living in it much earlier.


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    #179
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,152 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    The one thing that really makes me wonder about sinn fein is how do they expect to be taken seriously when they have adams as leader.

    The guy is carrying so much baggage at this stage.

    Consider him for a moment and compare him with all the other current and recent party leaders in this country.
    Lets not start going back to 1923 or 1930 now folks.

    Has any other leader the spectre of membership of a banned terrorist organisation linked to them, nevermind the links to the abduction, murder and concealment of the body of a widowed mother of 10 small children.
    And that doesn't even mention his concealment of the fact his brother was a paedophile who abused his own neice.
    Hell he is not a priest so the last one is not on either.

    If any other party leader had even one of those things linked to them, every shinner would be wailing and jumping up and down demanding their removal from their position of power.

    And to make sinn fein supports position even more ludicrous they compare the charges against adams with current party leaders breaking economic election promises.

    That type of cr** may work in the North where bigotry, tribalism and fundamentalism are power for the course, but down here in the actual Republic most of us play by a different set of grown up rules.
    We have had and have our fair share of bad political leaders, but none have or had the odour of mr adams.

    Watching mary lou macdonald, someone who has become a pretty able political performer, have to come out in the last week and explain why her party leader was landquishing in a jail cell and police interview room was pretty embarassing.

    Please give us a bloody break from the bullsh**.
    It is time for sinn fein to start growing up and ditch the old diehards.


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    #180
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    The analysis of historical 'evidence' by some on here is what gets major research and record projects closed down.
    The lack of critical thinking and objectivity and the unconscious (or maybe not) bias evident here is exactly what led to the now useless archive at Boston College being closed down.
    That project has only served to undermine completely any future attempts to record what actually happened during the conflict.
    There has been an attempt to re-write history and thankfully the authors have been spectacularly found out. But the damage they have done is far reaching indeed.
    When it becomes clear (when the PPS adjudicates ) that there isn't any evidence to convict Adams of membership or involvement in Jean McConville's death, as it seems clear they will, is it not high time that this forum and website reviews what posters are allowed to allege about him?


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    #181
    timtime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 56 ✭✭timtime


    jmayo wrote: »
    The one thing that really makes me wonder about sinn fein is how do they expect to be taken seriously when they have adams as leader.

    The guy is carrying so much baggage at this stage.

    Consider him for a moment and compare him with all the other current and recent party leaders in this country.
    Lets not start going back to 1923 or 1930 now folks.

    Has any other leader the spectre of membership of a banned terrorist organisation linked to them, nevermind the links to the abduction, murder and concealment of the body of a widowed mother of 10 small children.
    And that doesn't even mention his concealment of the fact his brother was a paedophile who abused his own neice.
    Hell he is not a priest so the last one is not on either.

    If any other party leader had even one of those things linked to them, every shinner would be wailing and jumping up and down demanding their removal from their position of power.

    And to make sinn fein supports position even more ludicrous they compare the charges against adams with current party leaders breaking economic election promises.

    That type of cr** may work in the North where bigotry, tribalism and fundamentalism are power for the course, but down here in the actual Republic most of us play by a different set of grown up rules.
    We have had and have our fair share of bad political leaders, but none have or had the odour of mr adams.

    Watching mary lou macdonald, someone who has become a pretty able political performer, have to come out in the last week and explain why her party leader was landquishing in a jail cell and police interview room was pretty embarassing.

    Please give us a bloody break from the bullsh**.
    It is time for sinn fein to start growing up and ditch the old diehards.
    why not go back to the 1920s ,1970s bad IRA 1920s good IRA, yeah?


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