Albert Quay - New Development

namloc1980

blindsider wrote: »

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly.

These are EXTRA jobs in town = extra people trying to get to the city centre - 2000 of them.

The bus network doesn't work.

P&R is limited - and near capacity I believe.

There are 2 trains from Midleton to Kent which arrive before 0900 - I have no idea how full they are.

There are 3 trains from Mallow: 0730 0800 0830 - again, no idea about capacity.

I'd be interested to hear from rail users - how good/effective/reliable etc.

Don't get me wrong - the development and the jobs it will bring are vital - we just need to think carefully about transport infrastructure.


This is a help - but we need much much more:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kent-station-revamp-part-of-85m-public-transport-plan-259308.html

Train capacity is not an issue. Additional units can be added to the train as required. I get the train from East Cork and it is very reliable and with the annual tax saver ticket I am saving a fortune versus when I drove.

BUNK1982

lisasimpson wrote: »

With all these developments (this one, the events center, o callaghans revised plan for his albert quay site)going on in the city it will hopefully increase the use of public transport there leading to an improved service if the demand is there. The are some many knock off positive effects for the city hopefully

Yes that's the chicken and egg scenario mentioned earlier - it would be great for the city.

more jobs in the city centre -> more people commuting -> greater demand for and use of public transport -> more money is spent on public transport -> a better public transport service -> more people use it and so on...

Subpopulus

There's a tower crane on site now. Haven't seen one of those in the city centre for a while...

There's one working on the extension to the Brookfield Building in UCC, and there's one up by Cork prison working on some social housing. We'll probably see a good few more of the things popping up over the next year - several for Pairc Ui Chaoimh, one or two at the Beamish Site etc. etc.

AugustusMinimus

BUNK1982 wrote: »

Yes that's the chicken and egg scenario mentioned earlier - it would be great for the city.

more jobs in the city centre -> more people commuting -> greater demand for and use of public transport -> more money is spent on public transport -> a better public transport service -> more people use it and so on...

A sensible solution would be for Cork City and County Council to do sensible planning and have all proposed big deveopments along one corridor. Say Mahon - Docklands - City Centre - UCC - CUH - CIT - Ballincollig. Keep doing all the developments along such a corridor and it would of course open up the opportunity to do something like BRT or even light rail. Would do the world of good to the city.

D'Agger

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A sensible solution would be for Cork City and County Council to do sensible planning and have all proposed big deveopments along one corridor. Say Mahon - Docklands - City Centre - UCC - CUH - CIT - Ballincollig. Keep doing all the developments along such a corridor and it would of course open up the opportunity to do something like BRT or even light rail. Would do the world of good to the city.

You'd imagine that would be the plan

Docks to Mahon & Douglas would be on line

Docks/City Centre to Ballincollig via UCC , CUH, CIT would be the other

That's wishful thinking granted!

Going Strong

I noticed a "Sale Agreed" banner on the Capitol cinema yesterday when I was in town.

Subpopulus

Going Strong wrote: »

I noticed a "Sale Agreed" banner on the Capitol cinema yesterday when I was in town.

Yeah, if that project runs to plan then construction could be happening there by late 2015. There's supposed to be several large retail units going in there, as well as a possible extension/new entrance to the English Market.

ofcork

Subpopulus wrote: »

There's a tower crane on site now. Haven't seen one of those in the city centre for a while...

There's one working on the extension to the Brookfield Building in UCC, and there's one up by Cork prison working on some social housing. We'll probably see a good few more of the things popping up over the next year - several for Pairc Ui Chaoimh, one or two at the Beamish Site etc. etc.

The tower crane up by the prison is building the new prison,long time since there were a few around.

lisasimpson

Subpopulus wrote: »

Yeah, if that project runs to plan then construction could be happening there by late 2015. There's supposed to be several large retail units going in there, as well as a possible extension/new entrance to the English Market.

O id love to see an extention to the English market.
Also saw a number of other buildings with reserved signs on them... hopefully it wont be long till these buildings are occupied

Subpopulus

Passed by Albert Quay this evening, you can see the lift core starting to rise. These rise fast so this should be completed by the end of the month.

Mushy

Subpopulus wrote: »

Passed by Albert Quay this evening, you can see the lift core starting to rise. These rise fast so this should be completed by the end of the month.

Saw them lifting them into place today. It wasn't even started yesterday when I went by. Will go up fast alright now.

mik_da_man

Mushy wrote: »

Saw them lifting them into place today. It wasn't even started yesterday when I went by. Will go up fast alright now.

It's been going up over a week now.
It starts two stories down from the road level.
Tis flying up in fairness.

BUNK1982

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A sensible solution would be for Cork City and County Council to do sensible planning and have all proposed big deveopments along one corridor. Say Mahon - Docklands - City Centre - UCC - CUH - CIT - Ballincollig. Keep doing all the developments along such a corridor and it would of course open up the opportunity to do something like BRT or even light rail. Would do the world of good to the city.

Well not to jump to the defence of our local authorities - but I do recall hearing something about this before.

The idea being that the city should expand to the east and we would have a corridor of development running out to Midleton. Anywhere along this would then be able to commute to the city with the existing rail links.

Mushy

mik_da_man wrote: »

It's been going up over a week now.
It starts two stories down from the road level.
Tis flying up in fairness.

Oh right, I couldn't see anything on the Saturday. Considering they were working Sunday, it must be aiming for a fast finish.

Pitcairn

They were working away on the site on Saturday lowering sections onto it. I think they put in the elevator shafts first and then build the rest around them. That's what they did with the Elysian if I remember correctly.

ongarboy

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A sensible solution would be for Cork City and County Council to do sensible planning and have all proposed big deveopments along one corridor. Say Mahon - Docklands - City Centre - UCC - CUH - CIT - Ballincollig. Keep doing all the developments along such a corridor and it would of course open up the opportunity to do something like BRT or even light rail. Would do the world of good to the city.

Absolutely! It's all about developing critical mass so such public transport ventures start becoming economically viable. That's why when I heard a few years ago that the county council wanted to develop a new town out beyond Blarney, I thought it was madness. It would just introduce another soulless, deserted by day, car dependent commuter dormitory town when there are so many brownfield sites within the existing Cork urban area that can be developed where you could actually walk or cycle/short commute to work/social outings etc. Sorry, slightly off topic!

Great to see the new development flying up so fast - so many projects get talked about for years before anything happens - this one is rising as we speak! It will really smarten up that corner of the city!

Subpopulus

ongarboy wrote: »

Absolutely! It's all about developing critical mass so such public transport ventures start becoming economically viable. That's why when I heard a few years ago that the county council wanted to develop a new town out beyond Blarney, I thought it was madness. It would just introduce another soulless, deserted by day, car dependent commuter dormitory town when there are so many brownfield sites within the existing Cork urban area that can be developed where you could actually walk or cycle/short commute to work/social outings etc. Sorry, slightly off topic!

That town is called Monard, and it's not as mad as it sounds since it's being built on the Cork-Dublin railway line. A new town on the railway line would allow sufficient critical mass to justify faster and better suburban rail, such as construction of a station at Blarney, and through-running to Midleton and Cobh. Almost all of the future greenfield development around Cork will be next to existing railway lines - at Blarney, Carrraigtwohill, Midleton etc. Monard is part of that, and would feed commuters into the city centre, and presumably docklands office blocks by the time that development rolls about.

While brownfield development is all very good, you must remember that a very large proportion of the populace isn't interested in city centre apartment living. People's desire for a suburban semi-d is very great, and this is fairly major problem for planners and urbanists in Ireland. If planners had their way the'd probably make 60-80% of the new-build housing stock apartments, but the demand for apartments in Cork is something like 30% of the market, and less again in Galway and Limerick. So it's very difficult to tell people 'no, you can't have a suburban semi-d, you must live in a city centre apartment'. They could force development areas to be extremely dense if they really wished, but then the developers would probably refuse to touch it if they knew that they weren't going to be able to sell such a large proportion of apartments.

Housing in the docklands, or any further brownfield development in Cork will be almost all apartments (or duplex style developments), which runs strongly against the market. While I'd be very happy to live in a central well-connected place like you describe, your standard thirty-something couple will be very reluctant to do this. Their desire to live in a dreary suburb is driven by their desire for a safe, middle class place to live with capacious schools, and it isn't helped by the fact that we don't have much of a tradition of urban living in Ireland. I don't particularly like that sort of life, but it's very difficult to deny it to others without being dictatorial and forcing them to live in high-density housing. So, if you're going to develop some soulless dormitory town, then on the existing railway line is the most practical option, since people are likely to use rail if it's fast and reliable.

This is all a bit off topic - might the mods split this to a Cork Spatial Planning type thread?

BUNK1982

Subpopulus wrote: »

People's desire for a suburban semi-d is very great, and this is fairly major problem for planners and urbanists in Ireland.

If Henry Ford had asked people what they wanted - they would have said faster horses

You make a good point and I get that you yourself would have no issue living in/ near the city centre but pandering to the masses is just kicking the can down the road leading to urban sprawl and a hollowed out middle.

cgcsb

What people want and what is sustainable/practical are two different things. The market will adjust. If high quality apartments with communal space and facilities are available and priced competitively, people will make the switch.

CHealy

Mr. Cleary with another development at Mahon. He's doing fantastic work for the city at the moment, however, surely with this being granted a revision of the road layout in Mahon needs to be addressed. 6 office blocks means approx 1000 new workers which mean perhaps 2/300 new cars coming and going from Mahon at rush hour.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/cork-news/2015/02/04/go-ahead-granted-for-another-mahon-office-development/

D'Agger

CHealy wrote: »

Mr. Cleary with another development at Mahon. He's doing fantastic work for the city at the moment, however, surely with this being granted a revision of the road layout in Mahon needs to be addressed. 6 office blocks means approx 1000 new workers which mean perhaps 2/300 new cars coming and going from Mahon at rush hour.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/cork-news/2015/02/04/go-ahead-granted-for-another-mahon-office-development/

I agree that Cleary is one of a few that seem to be driving a new dawn in Cork with regard to development....however, you can be absolutely certain that Mr.Cleary is doing this for Mr.Cleary...not Cork :pac:

I absolutely agree on the road layout point - that area is already congested a huge amount and can't handle that increase.

For me, a quicker way of getting onto the link road from Blackrock/Douglas is what's required here. An improvement on the well rd. route through Douglas would allow more people from Blackrock to avoid going towards Mahon point to get on the link, which for me is something that causes a large amount of the congestion

rebs23

Probably time to bite the bullet on the issue and start planning for a light rail system from City Centre (from existing railway station/new bridge across Lee below Custom House building) through Docklands past PUC and down the old railway track to City Gate, Mahon Point, Rochestown and out to Passage West.
Mush as I use and love the old railway track in Blackrock there are surely ways (it seems wide enough) to accomodate a pedestrian walkway and light rail?

CHealy

rebs23 wrote: »

Probably time to bite the bullet on the issue and start planning for a light rail system from City Centre through Docklands past PUC and down the old railway track to City Gate, Mahon Point, Rochestown and out to Passage West.
Mush as I use and love the old railway track in Blackrock there are surely ways (it seems wide enough) to accomodate a pedestrian walkway and light rail?

Should have been done years ago seeing as the line is already there waiting to be built on but it won't happen in our lifetime.

D'Agger

CHealy wrote: »

Should have been done years ago seeing as the line is already there waiting to be built on but it won't happen in our lifetime.

Depends on how old your are! :pac:

Could happen in the next 10 years but even then that'd be an announcement - the feasibility study done on it stated that the docks would need to be developed before it was feasible - Alberts Quay is currently starting to develop so mightn't be as far away as we think, but still, imo, a long way off

Pitcairn

rebs23 wrote: »

Probably time to bite the bullet on the issue and start planning for a light rail system from City Centre (from existing railway station/new bridge across Lee below Custom House building) through Docklands past PUC and down the old railway track to City Gate, Mahon Point, Rochestown and out to Passage West.
Mush as I use and love the old railway track in Blackrock there are surely ways (it seems wide enough) to accomodate a pedestrian walkway and light rail?

I agree. People in Blackrock are very possessive of it and saying it must stay as a public walkway but if there is a chance at a light rail system that should take precedence.

KCAccidental

they can't build light rail on the blackrock greenway. The mains sewerage pipes are directly under the pah.

namloc1980

KCAccidental wrote: »

they can't build light rail on the blackrock greenway. The mains sewerage pipes are directly under the pah.

Nothing a bit of engineering can't overcome. Having said that unlikely it will happen as a light rail system. The best we could expect is a grade separated BRT.

ofcork

John cleary is taking on a lot with albert quay,the Cineplex development and now this mahon project.

D'Agger

ofcork wrote: »

John cleary is taking on a lot with albert quay,the Cineplex development and now this mahon project.

Bigger the gamble, bigger the reward and now is as good a time as any to gamble - property prices etc. are only going one direction so far as I can see

Subpopulus

BUNK1982 wrote: »

If Henry Ford had asked people what they wanted - they would have said faster horses

You make a good point and I get that you yourself would have no issue living in/ near the city centre but pandering to the masses is just kicking the can down the road leading to urban sprawl and a hollowed out middle.

I'm not in favour of pandering to the masses myself, and I'm not suggesting that there's no point in trying to change things and that we carry on as we always have done. I'm just making the point that suburban housing does make up a large part of the housing market, and that it's foolish to dismiss it out of hand. Sure, the results haven't been great so far, but places like Carraigline and Ballincollig are the result of planning decisions stretching back to the 70s and 80s. I don't think it would be done the same way nowadays. I've seen large tracts of low-rise urban-sprawl-type development in places like the Netherlands and Denmark, but it's quite pleasant, because the houses are built at a high density, have good permeability for walkers and cyclists, and the transport links are excellent. Suburban housing is doesn't have to be soulless and car-dependent, and the fact that most planning policies for Cork from the past decade all recommend building along the existing rail line shows that the planners are aware of this.