Numbers up Gerry

Tramps Like Us

awec wrote: »

I think it's highly unlikely that every single person involved with all of the missing bodies has died.

I also think it's unlikely that anyone has "forgotten" where they put the bodies - unless you are a seriously cold and hardened killer I believe everyone would remember where and when they committed an act like murder, as well as every little detail about the event.

Some of the people who did it may be dead. They may have genuinely forgotten specifically were they buried the person, land changes, might be a new road, buildings, tress cut down (or grown). 40 years is a long time so if they remember in being "near a big tree in a field on the left hand side of x road", somewere where when they were there it was dark, its not hard to see why it is hard to find.

Especially with bogs. They move so you can actually go back to the exact spot and not be able to find something, people lost butter in it all the time, ancient bits of it show up from time to time.

SF and republicans gain nothing from withholding information so I don't think they are.

awec

No

Happyman42 wrote: »

Do you think that sort of thing happens in a normal equal society? My goodness...

You can't try and pin that one on the brits.

fasttalkerchat

No

Buzz84 wrote: »

True but as heinous as it was it stopped the Glennane Gang

Genocide would work well too. Doesn't make it right.
It should never have happened.

Nodin

awec wrote: »

Hadn't heard of that project - got any more details?

I am convinced there are people out there who know. I refuse to believe anyone can just forget - that is like forgetting where you got married, i.e. pull the other one. :pac:

Information seems to come through in drips every few years.

Can't find a link. I think I read it in the Guardian and am sure it referred to a British university though.

Tramps Like Us

Nodin wrote: »

Can't find a link. I think I read it in the Guardian and am sure it referred to a British university though.

Not Boston College, Mackers and Moloneys money-spinner?

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Where they ever free of touts?

I don't think there has been an army since the dawn of time that has been free of touts. It's why the precedent of shooting them was not invented by the IRA.

Busted Flat.

No

I was in Cavan back in the seventies at a funeral, got talking to an old IRA man called Pakie Sheridan ex TD, his brother was a friend of my fathers. We got talking about the north, this man was carrying a few bullets over the war of Independence and later the civil war. He mentioned to me about all the people that disappeared during both wars and after they ended to settled the score. So what is new, according to popular belief the bullet's that killed people in the war of independence and the civil war did not hurt so much as the ones that were fired in the seventies and eighties. Grow up people war is war their no soft bullet's.

Happyman42

awec wrote: »

You can't try and pin that one on the brits.

I pin everything that happened on the circumstances of the time and on those who failed in their responsibilities.
I look around me today and see justification of that view every peaceful day.

Tramps Like Us

awec wrote: »

You can't try and pin that one on the brits.

Kingsmills was an unforgivable reaction to the murder of random catholics in the area. Specifically two families. Anne Cadwalladers new book details the collusion involved in these murders.

It is also believed by many (with reason) that British Agent Robert Nairac (one of the disappeared) was the man with the "english accent" who was at Kingsmill.

Regardless the horrible act was not the product of people waking up one morning and out of the blue deciding to murder some protestants

nacho libre

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are you saying the IRA in the 70's, 80's and 90's where not successful. The could bomb down into the heart of England at will.
There where traitors, of that there is no doubt, but there would have been more if they hadn't established a severe penalty. Armies everywhere did it, look at what happened to deserters.

yes, from their perspective, they were fairly successful through two of those decades, but you obviously dispute that operations were being hindered significantly towards the end due to the activities of senior IRA informants, i can understand the denial of this from a supporter, but from a non supporter it is curious. Some now deceased members spoke bitterly about how so many operations were thwarted due to the suspected activites of high level informants.

ktm

Slightly off topic but seen a picture of Captain Nairac in the end credits, an awful pity he wasn't made disappear before 1974.

delthedriver

No

Current Poll Results

yes 81%

no 18%

Interesting?????;)

LordSutch

No

Happyman42 wrote: »

I pin everything that happened on the circumstances of the time and on those who failed in their responsibilities.

Call me old fashioned, but surely the PIRA had a responsibility not to murder people & make them disappear?

awec

No

I'm just about to start watching on iPlayer.

fasttalkerchat

No

delthedriver wrote: »

Current Poll Results

yes 81%

no 18%

Interesting?????;)

I voted yes. It doesn't mean Gerry killed her.
Half of Divis would have expected her to fall into trouble again.

Happyman42

nacho libre wrote: »

. Some now deceased members spoke bitterly about how so many operations were thwarted due to the suspected activites of high level informants.

I never disputed this ^ I was referring to the organisation built that had major military successes through the 70's 80's and early 90's.
Around the time of Loughgall it was obvious there was a problem with high level informants.

Buzz84

No

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Genocide would work well too. Doesn't make it right.
It should never have happened.

Where did I say it did? I was replying to some one who asked how did The Kingsmill Massacre further Irish unity? It wasn't sanctioned by the IRA it wasn't done for Irish Unity but as a reprisal/warning to the Glenanne Gang.

K-9

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

However she then utterly discredits herself by saying that McConville was killed for being a protestant from east Belfast and not "one of them". McConville was the mother of an IRA prisoner. A "pow". And this was widely known to the IRA (obviously). This does not compute, and is, plainly put, utter nonsense.

As I replied earlier, the son was only a kid when taken into care. God knows how he ended up in the IRA and INLA. Would be a fascinating interview.

Both of whom hate SF. Although I was glad to see McKee looking well, especially for his age. (95 I think?) Last I heard of him was that some (complete and utter morons they'd have to be) burgled his house.

McKee was honest though, reminds me of interviews with old Republicans in the 80's about the Civil War. He was in a way a last defender of Republican areas when there was no IRA in 1969 Belfast. The context of his interview was he didn't condone burying the disappeared, but shooting them, no problem! That's pretty honest! I suppose most on this thread wouldn't be aware of McKee and his near single handed defence of Nationalist areas at times, hell, this was a basic reason for the spilt in the IRA that led to the Officials and Provisionals. That's a man I can admire.

Everybody knew the IRA was poorly armed, even the Irish Government and that led to the Arms Trial.

Can these be believed, especially when they say that one of disappeared from Crossmaglen was killed for hanging around a town square? This is south Armagh, Bandit country were the IRA openly operated, they wouldn't have (and didn't) cared if anyone saw them do anything because the vast majority of the
community supported them. Have you ever been there? This "source" seems made up to me especially when they come out with rubbish like that.

Can the "official" sources be believed? We need whistle blowers, what Republicans call touts, a far too convenient term that silences genuinely concerned and courageous individuals from speaking out about authority. Didn't have enough of it in the Celtic Tiger.

Do I believe people disagreed with actions the IRA took? Yes. I believe it takes a very brave individual to contradict the IRA public line in Crossmaglen.

But there was no mention of him(which I heard), which was a bit strange but he was a grade A scumbag whose elimination was o loss to society. But he was one of the disappeared (why I don't know that puzzles me).

If it was a programme about shoot to kill and the RUC and Britsih, I wouldn't expect to hear about people who deserved to be shot at point blank range, and their murder covered up.

We have to come to the conclusion that people either think Adams was in the IRA and don't care, or think he was and are horrified to some degree by the whole thing and wont vote. However there is not one person who would suddenly stop voting for SF or Adams if he said tomorrow that he was in the IRA.

Which begs the question, why does he keep denying it? We all know he was a key IRA member in the ceasefire talks in 72/73. McGuinness persists with saying he left the IRA after Bloody Sunday.

As a republican leader he along with others have a collective responsibility for everything the IRA did so whether or not he specifically ordered x or y doesnt really make a difference unless it was a solo run. However if he was the Belfast commander I find it very doubtful that he was in charge of any independent counter intelligence unit of unknowns. It would be a conflict.

Fair enough.

This is all old news, people can see SF moving beyond violence for years now. The outrage about the IRA is getting quieter and quieter and is coming from less and less people

It's the achilles heel in the South, the Presidential campaign and McGuinness proof of that, that can't be denied!

Happyman42

LordSutch wrote: »

Call me old fashioned, but surely the PIRA had a responsibility not to murder people & make them disappear?

I always look to see why somebody would want to murder and make somebody disappear and what led them to do that and then I would look at why they have stopped doing those things. Then you arrive at a greater truth and understanding. Try it sometime.

delthedriver

No

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I voted yes. It doesn't mean Gerry killed her.
Half of Divis would have expected her to fall into trouble again.

The question in the poll was as follows

Do you believe Adams had knowledge of McConville's adduction & murder?

Tramps Like Us

The Disappeared: IRA secret killings and burials 'cruel and unjustified' says Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness
Deputy First Minister said killings were "absolutely wrong"

The Diabolical Monocle

delthedriver wrote: »

The question in the poll was as follows

Do you believe Adams had knowledge of McConville's adduction & murder?

How can we know.

nacho libre

Happyman42 wrote: »

There where traitors, of that there is no doubt, but there would have been more if they hadn't established a severe penalty.

well, you don't really need more, when you have high level traitors,who knew the severe penalty never would be carried out on them , but you do have a point that it discouraged many others lowered rank members from informing that otherwise would have.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't think there has been an army since the dawn of time that has been free of touts. It's why the precedent of shooting them was not invented by the IRA.

So why say they were free of touts?

Jaysus, Soviet Russia propaganda. Say they were free of touts, then when asked where they actually free of touts?

Say no army ever was free of touts. I'd call it misdirection but it isn't even that clever.

ktm

ktm wrote: »

Slightly off topic but seen a picture of Captain Nairac in the end credits, an awful pity he wasn't made disappear before 1974.

What? Why?

ktm

Deleted User wrote: »

What? Why?

Miami showband massacre, Dublin/Monaghan bombings reason enough?

ktm

ktm wrote: »

Miami showband massacre, Dublin/Monaghan bombings reason enough?

Hiow do you know he was involved in those atrocities from his picture? Not being smart, just genuinely confused.

Tramps Like Us

K-9 wrote: »

As I replied earlier, the son was only a kid when taken into care. God knows how he ended up in the IRA and INLA. Would be a fascinating interview.

You were wrong when you said it.

What dont you understand about him being IN THE IRA AND IN LONG KESH when his mother was abducted? He was never in care. He joined the INLA in 1974 while (still) in Long Kesh.

McKee was honest though, reminds me of interviews with old Republicans in the 80's about the Civil War. He was in a way a last defender of Republican areas when there was no IRA in 1969 Belfast. The context of his interview was he didn't condone burying the disappeared, but shooting them, no problem! That's pretty honest! I suppose most on this thread wouldn't be aware of McKee and his near single handed defence of Nationalist areas at times, hell, this was a basic reason for the spilt in the IRA that led to the Officials and Provisionals. That's a man I can admire.

Yeah he said the same as Hughes, and is coming from a similar political position.

Can the "official" sources be believed? We need whistle blowers, what Republicans call touts, a far too convenient term that silences genuinely concerned and courageous individuals from speaking out about authority. Didn't have enough of it in the Celtic Tiger.

Do I believe people disagreed with actions the IRA took? Yes. I believe it takes a very brave individual to contradict the IRA public line in Crossmaglen.

A source that says that a lad from crossmaglen was executed and secretly buried for seeing IRA members while in a town square is talking sh!te, it is simply not believable. If that gets you killed in South Armagh there would be no one left.

Which begs the question, why does he keep denying it? We all know he was a key IRA member in the ceasefire talks in 72/73. McGuinness persists with saying he left the IRA after Bloody Sunday.



Fair enough.



It's the achilles heel in the South, the Presidential campaign and McGuinness proof of that, that can't be denied!

If Adams were to say he was in the IRA (if he was) he would be sent to jail. Same with McGuinness.

Theres a reason why SF have long called for a truth and reconciliation forum (with associated amnesty)

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

So why say they were free of touts?

Jaysus, Soviet Russia propaganda. Say they were free of touts, then when asked where they actually free of touts?

Say no army ever was free of touts. I'd call it misdirection but it isn't even that clever.

Did I not clarify enough? I had intended to say 'relatively' free of touts. Sorry master.

Busted Flat.

No

Deleted User wrote: »

Hiow do you know he was involved in those atrocities from his picture? Not being smart, just genuinely confused.

This site is like pre school.