Numbers up Gerry

Balaclava1991

No

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I was in Cavan back in the seventies at a funeral, got talking to an old IRA man called Pakie Sheridan ex TD, his brother was a friend of my fathers. We got talking about the north, this man was carrying a few bullets over the war of Independence and later the civil war. He mentioned to me about all the people that disappeared during both wars and after they ended to settled the score. So what is new, according to popular belief the bullet's that killed people in the war of independence and the civil war did not hurt so much as the ones that were fired in the seventies and eighties. Grow up people war is war their no soft bullet's.

Dragging a mother of ten naked out of her bath with her kids squealing and hanging on to her and pointing a gun at her son's head before she is bundled into a van, driven away into the night, tortured, shot through the head and lumped into a hole on a beach is a strange way to fight a war.

There is no way that can be defended.

So don't even try.

[-0-]

Deleted User wrote: »

Hiow do you know he was involved in those atrocities from his picture? Not being smart, just genuinely confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Nairac

WoollyRedHat

No

Buzz84 wrote: »

Explain to me how that makes it true then. Price and Hughes hated Adams , they seen him as a sellout. Can you not see how their evidence mightn't be seen as reliable?

Their evidence alone isn't enough, but why did they make the accusations in utter confidentality until their death? Just because they hated him doesn't detract from his possible involvement. If about 10 more people come out on the tapes making similar accusations, it is easy to say they hated him too for various reasons. But it brings the light more and more on Adams. It might help his case just a little bit if he came out and disclosed exactly what his role in the IRA was for a start. This "I was never in the IRA" stuff is not believed by the vast majority of people. Several people have made public allegations that this is a lie and he is constantly confronted with his past. That's a huge problem for Gerry.

Busted Flat.

No

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Dragging a mother of ten naked out of her bath with her kids squealing and hanging on to her and pointing a gun at her son's head before she is bundled into a van, driven away into the night, tortured, shot through the head and lumped into a hole on a beach is a strange way to fight a war.

There is no way that can be defended.

So don't even try.

Were you there, first I have heard of a description like that. Star, Sun or some other journal you live by.

K-9

ktm wrote: »

Miami showband massacre, Dublin/Monaghan bombings reason enough?

We haven't had enough inquiries, the state should be held accountable for despicable acts under it's watch, it should be held to higher account than the IRA.

That doesn't mean the RA was a fine bunch of freedom fighters fighting imperialist powers in a war against the Bourgeoisie.

ktm

Deleted User wrote: »

Hiow do you know he was involved in those atrocities from his picture? Not being smart, just genuinely confused.

I dont just look at pictures of people and attribute crimes to them based on what I see, I actually read alot of books. They are a useful source for information.

( I was tempted to type another reply but though better of it! )

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Did I not clarify enough? I had intended to say 'relatively' free of touts. Sorry master.

I can only go on what you post, I can't read your mind, yet. The IRA was always paranoid about infiltration and with damn good reason, as many did infiltrate it. That isn't a criticism of the IRA, as you say yourself it was a war, and as the programme showed, 17 years old were fair game to intelligence officers, on both sides.

Balaclava1991

No

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Were you there, first I have heard of a description like that. Star, Sun or some other journal you live by.

The McConville family have been interviewed repeatedly over the years. They were in the flat when the IRA arrived and dragged their mother away.

Tramps Like Us

Right K9, I've done some further research. The eldest child was called Ann (since deceased) who was ill in hospital at the time. (aged 20). The second eldest was Robert (Robbie) who was 17/18 and in Long Kesh at the time his mother was abducted. Only six children went into care.

Tramps Like Us

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The McConville family have been interviewed repeatedly over the years. They were in the flat when the IRA arrived and dragged their mother away.

Only some of them were, but you have rather embellished the account haven't you.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

I can only go on what you post, I can't read your mind, yet. The IRA was always paranoid about infiltration and with damn good reason, as many did infiltrate it. That isn't a criticism of the IRA, as you say yourself it was a war, and as the programme showed, 17 years old were fair game to intelligence officers, on both sides.

It's curious you would go back so many posts to make your point and ignore subsequent ones. I can read your mind.

Hannibal

another documentary airing the same questions that we all know can't be answered and even if they are some people choose to not believe them. A big build up to this then no substance, it's like something that's usually found gracing the pages of the Sindo around election time.
Adams had it right when he said you're simply rephrasing the same question. And to show Enda Kenny in the Dail critising someone for waffling and not telling the truth is deplorable, Kenny is the master of waffle and not answering a single direct question during Leaders Questions.

I found it strange for the reporter to back up what Hughes and Price said with "sources" that can't be named. If someone else presented a "source" to say Adams wasn't an OC of the IRA would people treat it with the same merit? I thinnk not. It was a weak argument, could the "source" be Slab Murphy? him and his gang seem to have fallen out with Adams since he became a TD in Louth and has backed the closing down of fuel laundering plants in the region, that seems reason enough to follow and join the anti GF agreement republicans into attacks against the SF leadership.

I honestly don't think anyone at high level in the IRA was sanctioning the "disappeared". There was a full scale war going on, this wasn't tit for tat picking isolated individuals out. I'd much rather a documentary revealing the cause of the troubles through social problems and the Orange/Protestant/Apartheid regimes racist attacks against Cahtolics denying them of basic rights. The collusion between loyalist death squads, the RUC, British army and the British intelligence services.

Balaclava1991

No

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Only some of them were, but you have rather embellished the account haven't you.

Did you even watch the documentary tonight? The family describe how their mother was dragged out of the bath and how the kids were squealing as they tried to cling onto their Mammy to stop her killers from taking her away. :mad:

Happyman42

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Did you even watch the documentary tonight? The family describe how their mother was dragged out of the bath and how the kids were squealing as they tried to cling onto their Mammy to stop her killers from taking away. :mad:

Have you read or heard any other stories from families affected at the time...they where in no way unique. They where truly dark days on this island.

awec

No

Can you imagine how it would feel getting a phone call saying they finally found your mother's body 31 years after she had been abducted screaming from your house?

Doesn't even bear thinking about.

Busted Flat.

No

K-9 wrote: »

We haven't had enough inquiries, the state should be held accountable for despicable acts under it's watch, it should be held to higher account than the IRA.

That doesn't mean the RA was a fine bunch of freedom fighters fighting imperialist powers in a war against the Bourgeoisie.

All the men and women who volunteered and who gave their lives for their beliefs and defense of their areas stayed their ground. Some looked for the easy way out and sold out. It was a war for survival and they did not let anyone down when the heave came to push. Look at the brit army are they all saints, can the US claim all their troops are above reproach. Such is war. It seems that a volunteer army who took on the the so called might of the receding empire and held them at bay for thirty years, forcing them to negotiated a settlement. Now the powers that be want to shift the blame onto the shoulders of the people that dared to defend themselves against such a murderous campaign carried out by a country that has such a false regard for civil liberties.

K-9

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Right K9, I've done some further research. The eldest child was called Ann (since deceased) who was ill in hospital at the time. (aged 20). The second eldest was Robert (Robbie) who was 17/18 and in Long Kesh at the time his mother was abducted. Only six children went into care.

I've no reason to doubt your word, but a link would help anybody reading the thread, the BBC can make plenty of mistakes! Internment was a year previously, I don't know if it was ended by then.

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's curious you would go back so many posts to make your point and ignore subsequent ones. I can read your mind.

I was replying to a specific post from you that caught my interest. Seemed odd for anybody to state the IRA was free from informers, particularly from somebody who is such a regular on Republican and SF related threads.

Balaclava1991

No

Happyman42 wrote: »

Have you read or heard any other stories from families affected at the time...they where in no way unique. They where truly dark days on this island.

The horrendous and despicable crimes of the loyalists and the Brits in no way excuses the crimes of the IRA especially the psychopathic murder of a helpless mother of 10.

Numerous PIRA members, journalists, academic historians, police, military and politicians in both the UK and Ireland and around the world are all in agreement that Gerry Adams was a senior member of the PIRA.

Two republicans who are now deceased recorded interviews the contents of which would not be released until after their deaths in which they say Gerry Adams gave the order for Jean McConville to be disappeared.

Adams' denials about his IRA leadership role and his involvement in McConville's murder are utterly ludicrous but no more than you can come to expect from him. Nobody believes them.

Only a psychopath could either commit or condone the PIRA's campaign of mass murder.

K-9

Busted Flat. wrote: »

All the men and women who volunteered and who gave their lives for their beliefs and defense of their areas stayed their ground. Some looked for the easy way out and sold out. It was a war for survival and they did not let anyone down when the heave came to push. Look at the brit army are they all saints, can the US claim all their troops are above reproach. Such is war. It seems that a volunteer army who took on the the so called might of the receding empire and held them at bay for thirty years, forcing them to negotiated a settlement. Now the powers that be want to shift the blame onto the shoulders of the people that dared to defend themselves against such a murderous campaign carried out by a country that has such a false regard for civil liberties.

I've no problem in acknowledging IRA bravery, courage and guerilla warfare knowledge. I admire the hunger strikers hugely, which is why I don't dismiss a hunger striker (from the forgotten first hunger strike in 1980) like Brendan Hughes as a liar because it suits. It takes huge courage, conviction and resilience to almost starve to death. I'm not going to dismiss that because it's politically convenient for Adams and his supporters to do it.

[-0-]

awec wrote: »

Can you imagine how it would feel getting a phone call saying they finally found your mother's body 31 years after she had been abducted screaming from your house?

Doesn't even bear thinking about.

If this happened to my mother, I would lose more sleep over her being a tout than being dragged out of the house in front of my eyes.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

I was replying to a specific post from you that caught my interest. Seemed odd for anybody to state the IRA was free from informers, particularly from somebody who is such a regular on Republican and SF related threads.

So you are telling me that you made two unrelated posts where you quoted others then went back 20 odd posts to quote me and ask me a question about something I had already clarified? Yeh...right!

Balaclava1991

No

Busted Flat. wrote: »

All the men and women who volunteered and who gave their lives for their beliefs and defense of their areas stayed their ground. Some looked for the easy way out and sold out. It was a war for survival and they did not let anyone down when the heave came to push. Look at the brit army are they all saints, can the US claim all their troops are above reproach. Such is war. It seems that a volunteer army who took on the the so called might of the receding empire and held them at bay for thirty years, forcing them to negotiated a settlement. Now the powers that be want to shift the blame onto the shoulders of the people that dared to defend themselves against such a murderous campaign carried out by a country that has such a false regard for civil liberties.

Give me a break.

The murderous actions of governments and armies do not justify shooting and bombing and murdering innocent civilians.

What is the difference between the 9/11 attacks and IRA bombings?

The bombing of Iraq civilians in the 1991 Gulf War or the killing of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli Defence Forces did not justify hijacking airliners full of civilians and smashing them into skyscrapers full of civilians or setting off suicide bombs in crowded restaurants or buses or trains full of civilians.

The murder of Catholic men women and children by the loyalists and the Brits did not justify the murder of Protestant or British men women and children.

There is nothing that can possibly justify the murder of a mother of 10 children.

EVER.

The indefensible cannot never be justified.

awec

No

[-0-] wrote: »

If this happened to my mother, I would lose more sleep over her being a tout than being dragged out of the house in front of my eyes.

Wow. I think that's pretty cold.

Happyman42

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The horrendous and despicable crimes of the loyalists and the Brits in no way excuses the crimes of the IRA especially the psychopathic murder of a helpless mother of 10.

Numerous PIRA members, journalists, academic historians, police, military and politicians in both the UK and Ireland and around the world are all in agreement that Gerry Adams was a senior member of the PIRA.

Two republicans who are now deceased recorded interviews the contents of which would not be released until after their deaths in which they say Gerry Adams gave the order for Jean McConville to be disappeared.

Adams' denials about his IRA leadership role and his involvement in McConville's murder are utterly ludicrous but no more than you can come to expect from him. Nobody believes them.

Only a psychopath could either commit or condone the PIRA's campaign of mass murder.

Numerous people say there have been alien landings on earth...is that enough for you to believe they happened? There is no evidence...end of. There is nothing you or I can do about that.
If you cannot see the motive behind this programme and the persistent media obsession with pinning something...ANYTHING at all on Adams then I feel genuinely sorry for you.
Where are these journalists moral superiority in all the other cases of injustice? It's disgusting that Irish people swallow this agenda, because that is what is driving it.

Busted Flat.

No

K-9 wrote: »

I've no problem in acknowledging IRA bravery, courage and guerilla warfare knowledge. I admire the hunger strikers hugely, which is why I don't dismiss a hunger striker (from the forgotten first hunger strike in 1980) like Brendan Hughes as a liar because it suits. It takes huge courage, conviction and resilience to almost starve to death. I'm not going to dismiss that because it's politically convenient for Adams and his supporters to do it.

If Gerry Adams were to admit to being the Chief Of Staff of the IRA, he would spend the rest of his life in court defending himself and the actions of his men.
Anyone with a bit of cop on knows what the situation is about. Get a grip.

K-9

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm genuinely not asking for anything other than evidence. If asking for that while others espouse conjectures, is the Holy Grail; then what the fcuk does that make those spilling their guts to appease an audience?

Lad, you're looking for evidence about the IRA, and not alone that, from such a secretive section within it, according to Gerry Adams, he can't even get that much evidence from. You're seeking evidence that is harder than the Holy Grail to find.

The IRA section that dealt with suspected touts was a carefully selected group, the elite of the organisation. The organisation that outed the touters aren't going to tout themselves!

Balaclava1991

No

K-9 wrote: »

I've no problem in acknowledging IRA bravery, courage and guerilla warfare knowledge. I admire the hunger strikers hugely, which is why I don't dismiss a hunger striker (from the forgotten first hunger strike in 1980) like Brendan Hughes as a liar because it suits. It takes huge courage, conviction and resilience to almost starve to death. I'm not going to dismiss that because it's politically convenient for Adams and his supporters to do it.

The IRA and the loyalist paramilitaries and the British security forces were all the same.

Murdering scum.

You cannot defend the mass murders committed by fanatical psychopaths on all sides.

In the case of the hunger strikers - terrorists and murderers who committed suicide because they wanted to usurp the democratic will of the Irish people north and south.

The conflict was only brought to an end when the mad men and women were forced to listen to the peaceful democratic will of right thinking decent people who were ignored for decades will militarists on all sides engaged in a pitiless nihilistic games in which the victims were innocent people.

It is outrageous that terrorists and murderers and scum on both sides would be praised as you have.

That is moral idiocy of the highest order.

Tramps Like Us

K-9 wrote: »

I've no reason to doubt your word, but a link would help anybody reading the thread, the BBC can make plenty of mistakes! Internment was a year previously, I don't know if it was ended by then.




I was replying to a specific post from you that caught my interest. Seemed odd for anybody to state the IRA was free from informers, particularly from somebody who is such a regular on Republican and SF related threads.

The police ombudsmans report (in which the author, who featured in the show, is very clear when she states that the Brit govt never confirms or denies that someone is an agent, it makes no judgment on whether or not she was an informer). This does not say that Robbie was in Long Kesh or in the IRA, in fact his only mention is that he exists. He is not named as being in the house nor mentioned besides once as being her son. However Brian Hanlys "The Lost Revolution" tells us that he was in the IRA and in Long Kesh at the time, and later joined the INLA in 1974. I'm inclined (but not 100% sure) that he was charged and maybe convicted with something rather than interned but I cant remember exactly and dont have the book with me(never lend anything)

I had the report on a disk from ages ago when I was working on something to do with this but I imagine it is online somewhere, if not if you give me your email I'll send it to you.

Busted Flat.

No

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Give me a break.

The murderous actions of governments and armies do not justify shooting and bombing and murdering innocent civilians.

What is the difference between the 9/11 attacks and IRA bombings?

The bombing of Iraq civilians in the 1991 Gulf War or the killing of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli Defence Forces did not justify hijacking airliners full of civilians and smashing them into skyscrapers full of civilians or setting off suicide bombs in crowded restaurants or buses or trains full of civilians.

The murder of Catholic men women and children by the loyalists and the Brits did not justify the murder of Protestant or British men women and children.

There is nothing that can possibly justify the murder of a mother of 10 children.

EVER.

The indefensible cannot never be justified.

I am 64 years of age what age are you, as a matter of interest.

Tramps Like Us

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Did you even watch the documentary tonight? The family describe how their mother was dragged out of the bath and how the kids were squealing as they tried to cling onto their Mammy to stop her killers from taking her away. :mad:

Strange, he says nothing about her being puled out of a bath naked in his official statements to the PSNI ombudsman. Or are you just embellishing, or is he?

The whole thing is tragic enough without exaggeration.