Numbers up Gerry

osarusan

Nodin wrote: »

It would be nice if you tried to follow the thread.....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87348758&postcount=430

But why disappear her and deny it? Wouldn't her dead body being found have been a more effective deterrent against future touting?

delthedriver

No

Nodin wrote: »

This was explained to you earlier.

Femme_Fatale

Carlos Roca wrote: »

The Parachute regiment? The BA/UDR/RUC interning thousands of innocent people? The 'loss' of weapons and ammunition to Loyalist murder gangs?

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

A progressive, enlightened Irishman who condemns republican violence (rightly so) but is ok with violence against his own people.

ur so kule nd ntrstn

Tramps Like Us

Busted Flat. wrote: »

It does not bode well for a Moderator on Boards to have such a bigoted view on such a crucial subject, where does any poster stand with a contradictory point of view.

Hardly bigoted... juts wrong :P

awec

No

Why are people getting so hung up on the tout thing?

Whether she was, or wasn't a tout doesn't excuse, detract from or alter the fact that these incidents were abhorrent. They are inexcusable.

The fact there are still families without a body to bury to me is just a complete slap in the face and a huge two fingers up to the victims from the Provisional IRA. Someone out there knows where those bodies are. It's time that these people got closure.

Happyman42

Rabelais wrote: »

The correct one, how? How does taking someone from their home, torturing them and killing them further the course of their cause? How did Kingsmill further the cause of this project?

War isn't pretty, people die in horrible circumstances in all wars and conflicts. SF forced those responsible for change (the British and Irish governments) to the negotiating table and won equality and the right of the people of this entire island to decide their future without outside impediment.Simply put, it is that victory which has secured the peace we have up to now. They are to be thanked for that. As we can sometimes see, what the dissidents offer is a much bloodier way,

Nodin

osarusan wrote: »

But why disappear her and deny it? Wouldn't her dead body being found have been a more effective deterrent against future touting?

Funny enough, that's what yer man on the tapes said.

Presumably they just disappeared her because all but diehards would have a problem with laying a womans body out in the street.

K-9

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

However she then utterly discredits herself by saying that McConville was killed for being a protestant from east Belfast and not "one of them". McConville was the mother of an IRA prisoner. A "pow". And this was widely known to the IRA (obviously). This does not compute, and is, plainly put, utter nonsense.

Ok, just responding to this point atm as I've seen it a few times. The eldest was 16 when Jean was murdered, and she was a girl.

Jean was the mother os this IRA "pow" for that not long in his life. He was moved to a care home, hope he was moved to a good one. So Jean wasn't his mother for long because the IRA brought her to a beach and shot her. God knows where the lad ended up.

Jean McConville's son joining the IRA and later the INLA has little to do with his mother, it's a propaganda point, sounds great but doesn't stand up to much analysis.

Sure some of the most viscious IRA members were Protestant or English, zealots bring a sanctimonius venom to self righteousness.

nacho libre

Happyman42 wrote: »

There where snatches of information about training and recruitment and how they built an organisation free of touts that where quite interesting. .

you can't be serious here. The IRA was full of traitors, some were very high up in the organisation

if, as you claimed earlier, you are not actually a sf supporter, why do you give credence to this piece of information and dismiss others pieces of information as hearsay??

fasttalkerchat

No

osarusan wrote: »

But why disappear her and deny it? Wouldn't her dead body being found have been a more effective deterrent against future touting?

No, that was part of the punishment.
People were killed all the time. Every extended family had someone.
To the IRA, touts were the lowest of the low and were punished even more severely. You went to your grave knowing you would never be buried and your family would never know.

Crooked Jack

osarusan wrote: »

But why disappear her and deny it? Wouldn't her dead body being found have been a more effective deterrent against future touting?

Yes, it would have, but if you read the full transcripts of interviews with hughes and price, not just the bits you like, youll see there were many reasons for disalpearing people. one was to prevent shame or embarassment on the persons family if they were an informer, the most heinous act of all in the eyes of many. given that her son was an IRA POW its certainly one possibility.

Nodin

awec wrote: »

Why are people getting so hung up on the tout thing?

Whether she was, or wasn't a tout doesn't excuse, detract from or alter the fact that these incidents were abhorrent. They are inexcusable.

The fact there are still families without a body to bury to me is just a complete slap in the face and a huge two fingers up to the victims from the Provisional IRA. Someone out there knows where those bodies are. It's time that these people got closure.

What makes you think that? Between PIRA members killed and those dead due to passage of years, there may be no-one who knows where they are.

Rabelais

No

Happyman42 wrote: »

War isn't pretty, people die in horrible circumstances in all wars and conflicts. SF forced those responsible for change (the British and Irish governments) to the negotiating table and won equality and the right of the people of this entire island to decide their future without outside impediment.Simply put, it is that victory which has secured the peace we have up to now. They are to be thanked for that. As we can sometimes see, what the dissidents offer is a much bloodier way,

How did stopping a bus, getting on it with guns and balaclavas, asking people their religious persuasion, singling people out, and shooting them in the head advance the cause of national unity?

Crooked Jack

awec wrote: »

Why are people getting so hung up on the tout thing?

Whether she was, or wasn't a tout doesn't excuse, detract from or alter the fact that these incidents were abhorrent. They are inexcusable.

The fact there are still families without a body to bury to me is just a complete slap in the face and a huge two fingers up to the victims from the Provisional IRA. Someone out there knows where those bodies are. It's time that these people got closure.

this type of accusation is just preposterous. how do you know somebody knows where they are. people die. memories fade. why would someone with information still be keeping it to themselves?

awec

No

Nodin wrote: »

What makes you think that? Between PIRA members killed and those dead due to passage of years, there may be no-one who knows where they are.

I think it's highly unlikely that every single person involved with all of the missing bodies has died.

I also think it's unlikely that anyone has "forgotten" where they put the bodies - unless you are a seriously cold and hardened killer I believe everyone would remember where and when they committed an act like murder, as well as every little detail about the event.

rockatansky

No

awec wrote: »

Why are people getting so hung up on the tout thing?

Whether she was, or wasn't a tout doesn't excuse, detract from or alter the fact that these incidents were abhorrent. They are inexcusable.

.

I think it's fair to say that it does make a difference, especially if your living in Divis in 1972.

The penalty for collaboration has always been the same and is known by every one.

Just to point out I am in no way suggesting that Jean McConville was an informant.

fasttalkerchat

No

Nodin wrote: »

What makes you think that? Between PIRA members killed and those dead due to passage of years, there may be no-one who knows where they are.

Looking at how previous information was fed in bits and pieces I think there are people who know. I understand why certain people were killed but I see no justification in still holding back on the information now.

Crooked Jack

Rabelais wrote: »

How did stopping a bus, getting on it with guns and balaclavas, asking people their religious persuasion, singling people out, and shooting them in the head advance the cause of national unity?

Already been covered numerous times. you clearly dont want an answer, you just like saying it over and over

fasttalkerchat

No

Rabelais wrote: »

How did stopping a bus, getting on it with guns and balaclavas, asking people their religious persuasion, singling people out, and shooting them in the head advance the cause of national unity?

Who did that?
You previously referred to Kingsmill which was never sanctioned nor supported. It was a reprisal for sectarian killings. A reprisal carried out against innocent men based on religion.

Happyman42

nacho libre wrote: »

you can't be serious here. The IRA was full of traitors, some were very high up in the organisation

if, as you claimed earlier you are not actually a sf supporter, why do you give credence to this piece of information and dismiss others pieces of information as hearsay??

Are you saying the IRA in the 70's, 80's and 90's where not successful. The could bomb down into the heart of England at will.
There where traitors, of that there is no doubt, but there would have been more if they hadn't established a severe penalty. Armies everywhere did it, look at what happened to deserters.

Nodin

awec wrote: »

I think it's highly unlikely that every single person involved with all of the missing bodies has died.

I also think it's unlikely that anyone has "forgotten" where they put the bodies - unless you are a seriously cold and hardened killer I believe everyone would remember where and when they committed an act like murder, as well as every little detail about the event.

I didn't say anyone had forgotten, I'm saying that there are possibly very very few left, if any.

I might add that there was a project going on involving a British university collecting information on the history of the conflict. Participants were from BA intelligence, RUC, IRA etc. When the court case to release these tapes ended, the project collapsed, as anonymity could no longer be guaranteed.

Nodin

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Looking at how previous information was fed in bits and pieces I think there are people who know. I understand why certain people were killed but I see no justification in still holding back on the information now.

O I don't think there is either.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

There where snatches of information about training and recruitment and how they built an organisation free of touts that where quite interesting.

Where they ever free of touts?

Tramps Like Us

K-9 wrote: »

Ok, just responding to this point atm as I've seen it a few times. The eldest was 16 when Jean was murdered, and she was a girl.

Jean was the mother os this IRA "pow" for that not long in his life. He was moved to a care home, hope he was moved to a good one. So Jean wasn't his mother for long because the IRA brought her to a beach and shot her. God knows where the lad ended up.

Jean McConville's son joining the IRA and later the INLA has little to do with his mother, it's a propaganda point, sounds great but doesn't stand up to much analysis.

Sure some of the most viscious IRA members were Protestant or English, zealots bring a sanctimonius venom to self righteousness.

You are wrong, she had ten kids, nine who she lived with. The oldest(I assume seen as he was in jail I havent been able to find a DOB), Robbie McConville (who is never mentioned in these programs) was in jail when she was abducted. In 1974 he joined the INLA. (while still in jail). This is detailed in The Lost Revolution (well, mentioned).

Its not a propaganda point, its a central point which destroys the narrative that she was killed for being a protestant (she was actually a catholic at this point).The lie used to be that she was killed for comforting a Brit soldier. It has now seemingly changed to it being because she was a "protestant outsider" which is obviously nonsense. You probably know how the families of IRA prisoners were treated, certainly not as outsiders.

The IRA would not kill the mother of a "pow" for no reason and it may be this may be part of the reason why they his the body.

My name is URL

K-9 wrote: »

You're area asking for evidence about the most successful secretive private army in 1970/80's Europe, and there was a few. The programme tonight had a few ex IRA sources, you're looking for the impossible, the Holy Grail.

I'm genuinely not asking for anything other than evidence. If asking for that while others espouse conjectures, is the Holy Grail; then what the fcuk does that make those spilling their guts to appease an audience?

awec

No

Nodin wrote: »

I didn't say anyone had forgotten, I'm saying that there are possibly very very few left, if any.

I might add that there was a project going on involving a British university collecting information on the history of the conflict. Participants were from BA intelligence, RUC, IRA etc. When the court case to release these tapes ended, the project collapsed, as anonymity could no longer be guaranteed.

Hadn't heard of that project - got any more details?

I am convinced there are people out there who know. I refuse to believe anyone can just forget - that is like forgetting where you got married, i.e. pull the other one. :pac:

Information seems to come through in drips every few years.

Buzz84

No

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Touts were punished severely to make sure no one would do it again lightly.

What happened at Kingsmill was a tit for tat killing that did nothing to further the political cause.

True but as heinous as it was it stopped the Glennane Gang

Happyman42

Rabelais wrote: »

How did stopping a bus, getting on it with guns and balaclavas, asking people their religious persuasion, singling people out, and shooting them in the head advance the cause of national unity?

All those acts of terror carried out because those responsible allowed the situation go up in flames pressured them to eventually do something about it. Negotiate. That is the sad truth of NI.

What do you think changed the British mindset?

awec

No

Happyman42 wrote: »

All those acts of terror carried out because those responsible allowed the situation go up in flames pressured them to eventually do something about it. Negotiate. That is the sad truth of NI.

What do you think changed the British mindset?

You even try to blame someone else for Kingsmill. My goodness...

Happyman42

awec wrote: »

You even try to blame someone else for Kingsmill. My goodness...

Do you think that sort of thing happens in a normal equal society? My goodness...