Saorview Connect

Tony

One Irish company tried this (7 day EPG) in the past and legal action was taken against them.

Johnboy1951

icdg wrote: »

Remember when you talk about bending rules on copyright. You are one person, doing it for yourself in your own room or wherever. Something doesn’t have to be a criminal offence for a legal remedy to be available, which a lot of people don’t get. There may be civil causes of action and remedies available.

I did not suggest bending any 'rule'.
I queried what 'rule' might be applicable, as I have done many times, and to date no such rule has been quoted to me.

If you have this information I would be grateful for a reference, than you.

If you are saying that this data is under some copyright then the owner of that copyright must be known and some proof of ownership (defence of copyright) must also be known.
That info should it be available would also be gratefully received.

If someone wants to sue you, they have to identify you, find you, and decide whether or not it’s worth suing you (do you have sufficent resources to meet a judgement and costs?) That may be a lot of trouble for little prospect of return.(That doesn’t mean you can discuss it here by the way, if it’s illegal it’s not allowed to be discussed)

Understood! IF .....

It is not unreasonable to require some 'proof'/rule/law/whatever of the illegality prior to accepting that something is illegal.
Posts like mine taking the opposite view have the same weight as anything posted, by unknown persons, on the internet, without references attached.

But they are Radio Telefis Eireann, they have a big giant sign outside their building with their name on it, everyone knows who they are and where to serve papers on them, and that they are backed by the State and will have resources to pay out if they lose a case (or they will settle).

None of which is really applicable to the legality or otherwise of using the content for commercial purposes.

Anyway, this has gone off topic a bit.
RTÉ had the opportunity to do things differently as they essentially started from scratch, and they chose the road they are on.
That it has been an unmitigated disaster can hardly be denied ..... they produced a STB that has been late to market; crippled from day one; late with promised upgrades; and still, years later will not do what customers want from such a box.
They sell this at a premium price!

By the time they get this sorted and priced right (if ever), it is likely that it will be so outdated that it will continue to be a failed device.

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

One Irish company tried this (7 day EPG) in the past and legal action was taken against them.

You have a reference for this please?

It would be interesting to read the details of such a case.

Thanks.

Tony

Afraid not. AFAIK it never went to court or was reported in any media.

Edit: sat4free was the brand name if memory serves

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You have a reference for this please?

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

Afraid not. AFAIK it never went to court or was reported in any media.

Edit: sat4free was the brand name if memory serves

Thanks.
So the basis of the 'complaint'/threat is not known and cannot be verified.

Is it even known who made this threat/complaint?

Tony

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Thanks.
So the basis of the 'complaint'/threat is not known and cannot be verified.

Is it even known who made this threat/complaint?

Yes was never tested in court as far as I know and I'm not sure what the legal advice was but the product was discontinued . Freesat UK made the complaint. They also threatened an Irish retailer "Freesat.ie" over the business name but nothing ever came of that.

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

Yes was never tested in court as far as I know and I'm not sure what the legal advice was but the product was discontinued . Freesat UK made the complaint. They also threatened an Irish retailer "Freesat.ie" over the business name but nothing ever came of that.

The point is that the data for the EPG might well not have been a factor in those efforts.

TBH, from what you posted it comes over like corporate bullying, similar to what Apple did to a fruit shop who had an apple as their logo.

Tony

I think it was a majr factor as the only thing that differentiated sat4free boxes from other boxes was the 7 day guide . There was also alternative firmware for some walker boxes which gave 7 day EPG and my understanding at the time was that Freesat also initiated contact with walker about this.

This would lead me to believe that no one will release a FTA box with 7 day epg as standard for fear of what might happen if Freesat found out.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The point is that the data for the EPG might well not have been a factor in those efforts.

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

I think it was a majr factor as the only thing that differentiated sat4free boxes from other boxes was the 7 day guide . There was also alternative firmware for some walker boxes which gave 7 day EPG and my understanding at the time was that Freesat also initiated contact with walker about this.

That would imply they were somehow infringing on some Freesat (specific) patent or copyright.

Unfortunately without details the cause of the action remains undetermined, and 'up in the sir'.

This would lead me to believe that no one will release a FTA box with 7 day epg as standard for fear of what might happen if Freesat found out.

Well none has yet ..... and by reading as much as I can find, it seems to be an area that has not been determined in a court of law, which really only promotes the idea that there might be something illegal in doing so, but so far I can find no hard information on the matter.
There are lots of opinions expressed but that is all they are until the situation is legally determined.

This brings to mind the threats of impending doom from litigation by MS against anyone using or providing Linux because of patent violation.
It was all FUD (maybe with a couple of exceptions?).

I expect unless someone does produce such a box and is prepared to go to a court to defend their position, the situation will never be clarified.

.

icdg

As I recall, sat4free boxes were genuine Freesat boxes from licensed manufacturers with the ability to set the postcode removed (they were hard coded to a Belfast postcode) and with the brand name changed. No more, no less. They were in trouble because Freesat never sanctioned those (relatively small) changes.

Tony

Exactly. The financial risk would be onerous and the rewards few for a relatively small market such as Ireland.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I expect unless someone does produce such a box and is prepared to go to a court to defend their position, the situation will never be clarified.

.

lsjmhar

icdg wrote: »

Remember when you talk about bending rules on copyright. You are one person, doing it for yourself in your own room or wherever. Something doesn’t have to be a criminal offence for a legal remedy to be available, which a lot of people don’t get. There may be civil causes of action and remedies available.

If someone wants to sue you, they have to identify you, find you, and decide whether or not it’s worth suing you (do you have sufficent resources to meet a judgement and costs?) That may be a lot of trouble for little prospect of return.(That doesn’t mean you can discuss it here by the way, if it’s illegal it’s not allowed to be discussed)

But they are Radio Telefis Eireann, they have a big giant sign outside their building with their name on it, everyone knows who they are and where to serve papers on them, and that they are backed by the State and will have resources to pay out if they lose a case (or they will settle).

sue

And if they are sued and lose it wwwillbeyour money they pay out. You will complain when that happens too!!! Lol!!

lsjmhar

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I did not suggest bending any 'rule'.
I queried what 'rule' might be applicable, as I have done many times, and to date no such rule has been quoted to me.

If you have this information I would be grateful for a reference, than you.

If you are saying that this data is under some copyright then the owner of that copyright must be known and some proof of ownership (defence of copyright) must also be known.
That info should it be available would also be gratefully received.



Understood! IF .....

It is not unreasonable to require some 'proof'/rule/law/whatever of the illegality prior to accepting that something is illegal.
Posts like mine taking the opposite view have the same weight as anything posted, by unknown persons, on the internet, without references attached.



None of which is really applicable to the legality or otherwise of using the content for commercial purposes.

Anyway, this has gone off topic a bit.
RTÉ had the opportunity to do things differently as they essentially started from scratch, and they chose the road they are on.
That it has been an unmitigated disaster can hardly be denied ..... they produced a STB that has been late to market; crippled from day one; late with promised upgrades; and still, years later will not do what customers want from such a box.
They sell this at a premium price!

By the time they get this sorted and priced right (if ever), it is likely that it will be so outdated that it will continue to be a failed device.

These are tort laws. You won't find specific answer from here but if you contact Arthur Cox solicitors they will tell what Contract law has been broken. They'll probably charge u for the advice.

FreudianSlippers

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If you are saying that this data is under some copyright then the owner of that copyright must be known and some proof of ownership (defence of copyright) must also be known.

Hi, lawyer here - none of that is legally accurate.

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote:

If you are saying that this data is under some copyright then the owner of that copyright must be known and some proof of ownership (defence of copyright) must also be known.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Hi, lawyer here - none of that is legally accurate.

The copyright owner is not known?
So I could represent myself as being the copyright owner and there is no way to disprove it without legal recourse?

Sam Russell

This thread is being dragged off topic.

I have it on good authority that RTE have said they will not implement 7 day epg for satellite channels. They state that it is because it would be seen as copyright infringement - or could be- and cannot be seen to be involved in a rights issue of any complexion as they are the state broadcaster.

They are not going down that road.

JDxtra

I would well agree with that understanding. They would have been better off not adding any sat function to this box at all. Keep it to Saorview and roll back/streaming services only. Maybe they should have done a deal with Sky/NowTV/Roku - these guys already have this type of hardware today and a foothold in the Irish market. Plus their boxes come with Netflix as well and they are modestly priced.

clfy39tzve8njq

I'd love to know how many of those saorview connect boxes have been bought

lsjmhar

Sam Russell wrote: »

This thread is being dragged off topic.

I have it on good authority that RTE have said they will not implement 7 day epg for satellite channels. They state that it is because it would be seen as copyright infringement - or could be- and cannot be seen to be involved in a rights issue of any complexion as they are the state brbroadcaste

They are not going down that road.

Well I am selling my two boxes and going back to enigma2 boxes then. I gave it a try but I cannot handle the need to click on every UK channel to populate the epg. The wife thinls its ridiculous. I had a 7 day epg and series link on a hd box that worked OK. Just going to update the box when I sell these. They had a chance to improve it to a usuable standard.

JDxtra

Miranda Muscular Pigeonhole wrote: »

I'd love to know how many of those saorview connect boxes have been bought

...and how many have been returned. Owners could try returning them to the retailer. Many were sold on the promise of recording abilities coming soon. False and misleading advertising.

FreudianSlippers

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The copyright owner is not known?
So I could represent myself as being the copyright owner and there is no way to disprove it without legal recourse?

There is no register of copyright in Ireland/UK - you could represent yourself as being the copyright owner, but you should be prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of Euro defending litigation (easily) disproving you as such.

I've literally been there in the past, we warned the individual in question and offered to settle for a non-financial penalty. He fancied himself smart as you apparently do and he lost his house, wife left him and is currently on a payment plan for the next 10 years to pay his court awarded damages and legal costs for both sides.

Johnboy1951

Sam Russell wrote: »

This thread is being dragged off topic.

I have it on good authority that RTE have said they will not implement 7 day epg for satellite channels. They state that it is because it would be seen as copyright infringement - or could be- and cannot be seen to be involved in a rights issue of any complexion as they are the state broadcaster.

They are not going down that road.

An understandable attitude I guess.

Considering that, the more obvious road for them to go would be with Freesat who are already involved in the Connect box.

Have they ever commented on why they did not come to some agreement with Freesat on this?

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote:

The copyright owner is not known?
So I could represent myself as being the copyright owner and there is no way to disprove it without legal recourse?

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

There is no register of copyright in Ireland/UK - you could represent yourself as being the copyright owner, but you should be prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of Euro defending litigation (easily) disproving you as such.

Thanks .... but that seems to say it is easy to disprove a false claim of copyright ownership, yet the owner is not generally known/registered?

How then does a company ensure they are not leaving themselves open to a copyright infringement suit before they go to market with a new product?

I've literally been there in the past, we warned the individual in question and offered to settle for a non-financial penalty. He fancied himself smart as you apparently do and he lost his house, wife left him and is currently on a payment plan for the next 10 years to pay his court awarded damages and legal costs for both sides.

:rolleyes: We could have done without the ad homimen attack!
Maybe I should not have asked questions.

Tony

I'm not sure what the value is of discussing the 7 day epg omission on a saorview connect thread . Saorview have no plans for it and are very unlikely to have in the future. Freesat don't want to allow it and again are very unlikely to change that view.

Quackster

Tony wrote: »

I'm not sure what the value is of discussing the 7 day epg omission on a saorview connect thread . Saorview have no plans for it and are very unlikely to have in the future. Freesat don't want to allow it and again are very unlikely to change that view.

Probably because it's one of the most vital features folk wish for in this box. I, for one, have no intention of forking out for it in the absence of a satellite EPG - or the ability to add one.

Gerry Wicklow

1. As I understand it, Freesat is funded by UK licence payers and therefore wont/cant allow access to non UK residents. Freesat T&Cs specifically allow access to their EPG data for personal, non commercial use only.
2. Saorview wont be in a hurry to promote competitors.

Tony

Think you are missing my point. Its not going to happen on saorview connect so what is the value in discussing it on this thread which is specifically for that box/service.

Quackster wrote: »

Probably because it's one of the most vital features folk wish for in this box. I, for one, have no intention of forking out for it in the absence of a satellite EPG - or the ability to add one.

Quackster

Tony wrote: »

Think you are missing my point. Its not going to happen on saorview connect so what is the value in discussing it on this thread which is specifically for that box/service.

I think it's valid to discuss why the box is a success or failure.

Tony

I agree but I don't think its necessary to take the thread off topic on the rights and wrongs of copyright etc That particular discussion has cropped up more than once on this forum , its been done to death over the years.

Quackster wrote: »

I think it's valid to discuss why the box is a success or failure.

The high horse brigade

Nobody would ever buy this box if this became known. It's overpriced and doesn't yet work as promised. I always expected there was some sort of 7 day EPG deal, otherwise what is the point?