Western Rail Corridor (Galway-Limerick section)

pclive

Irish Rail told to come up with rescue plan for loss-making Galway-Limerick line

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/irish-rail-told-to-come-up-with-rescue-plan-for-loss-making-galway-limerick-line-1.1463500

corktina

"the National Transport Authority described the service as unattractive, slow, infrequent and costly."

UNATTRACTIVE DESPITE BRAND NEW TRAINS AND STATIONS

SLOW because it uses the original indirect slow route

Infrequent? well more frequent than some other lines

costly?...well it should be more costly as it loses money

They make it sound as if it's IEs fault don't they! It's the Politicians fault , Guys, you should have said NO in the first place

Grandeeod

corktina wrote: »

"the National Transport Authority described the service as unattractive, slow, infrequent and costly."

UNATTRACTIVE DESPITE BRAND NEW TRAINS AND STATIONS

SLOW because it uses the original indirect slow route

Infrequent? well more frequent than some other lines

costly?...well it should be more costly as it loses money

They make it sound as if it's IEs fault don't they! It's the Politicians fault , Guys, you should have said NO in the first place

Isn't it frightening how the main players in this disaster are trying to spin it? Irish Rail are not responsible. The did what they were asked to do.

foggy_lad

I can see another hundred million being spent on this before it is finally put under a care and maintenance order in the next few years.

westtip

pclive wrote: »

Irish Rail told to come up with rescue plan for loss-making Galway-Limerick line

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/irish-rail-told-to-come-up-with-rescue-plan-for-loss-making-galway-limerick-line-1.1463500

35,000 using the through route according to this article

What was the business case? I seem to recall ballpark figures like 100,000 in the first year for the through route intercity passengers and growth to 200,000 within five years.....or something along those lines....and we still have to listen to councillors in the western counties who say there needs to be a railway extension north of Athenry. C'est tres bizarre.

serfboard

From that Irish Times article:

Alan Kelly wrote:

The numbers aren’t what we would like. I have spoken to the chief executive of Irish Rail with a view to looking at various different strategies to encourage more to use the line.

Isn't this the same line we heard last year and the year before, and will keep hearing until eventually someone shouts stop.

They're probably telling IE to make things better, but are giving them no extra money to do it. In that case, nothing will improve.

Grandeeod

serfboard wrote: »

From that Irish Times article:


Isn't this the same line we heard last year and the year before, and will keep hearing until eventually someone shouts stop.

They're probably telling IE to make things better, but are giving them no extra money to do it. In that case, nothing will improve.

I know how to quicken the demise and drum sense into these people. Put ICRs with catering on all services. Introduce online booking and brand it an IC service. The PAX still won't come and that will be that.

Judgement Day

Grandeeod wrote: »

Isn't it frightening how the main players in this disaster are trying to spin it? Irish Rail are not responsible. The did what they were asked to do.

Bit like Navan M3 Parkway so. :rolleyes:

westtip

Grandeeod wrote: »

Isn't it frightening how the main players in this disaster are trying to spin it? Irish Rail are not responsible. The did what they were asked to do.

In truth and for once in defense of a politician I hardly think we can blame Alan Kelly or Leo Varadkar - they simply inherited the mess and one thing is for sure they are not going to throw good money after bad and Varadkar for sure is not about to sign off on any further extensions of the WRC north of Athenry. I think Kellys call to IE to try and improve things is a bit of spin, he knows the way it is, he knows its design its own downfall, he knows its weaknesses; he knows its doomed to failure because those who campaigned for it got what they asked for - reopening of an old alignment that was never going to deliver......I think all this might have already been said though.......

dowlingm

westtip wrote: »

In truth and for once in defense of a politician I hardly think we can blame Alan Kelly or Leo Varadkar - they simply inherited the mess and one thing is for sure they are not going to throw good money after bad and Varadkar for sure is not about to sign off on any further extensions of the WRC north of Athenry. I think Kellys call to IE to try and improve things is a bit of spin, he knows the way it is, he knows its design its own downfall, he knows its weaknesses; he knows its doomed to failure because those who campaigned for it got what they asked for - reopening of an old alignment that was never going to deliver......I think all this might have already been said though.......

That Alan Kelly is telling IE to come up with a plan for a chronically loss making line is hilarious. On its worst day Galway-Limerick must still do better than Ballybrophy branch.

eastwest

dowlingm wrote: »

That Alan Kelly is telling IE to come up with a plan for a chronically loss making line is hilarious. On its worst day Galway-Limerick must still do better than Ballybrophy branch.

I reckon that the only thing saving Ballybrophy is Kelly; it's as dead a duck as Ennis.
The next cabinet reshuffle should see an end to the former, and the latter will probably close soon after that.
In the current economic climate, governments can't be seen to cut things like supports for disability while leaving these white elephants alone.
It will be interesting to see what IE comes up with. Another proposal for a rail-bus, maybe?
http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1809#.UeTwSJG9KSM

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

That Alan Kelly is telling IE to come up with a plan for a chronically loss making line is hilarious. On its worst day Galway-Limerick must still do better than Ballybrophy branch.

funny it may be but to be honest if i was in his situation trying to save a local line in my constituency from closing then thats what i'd be doing. galway limerick is to slow and meandering and expensive, limmerick ballybroaphy has been deliberately ran down over 40 or more years to the point where even though new rail has been layed along part of it its still to slow, it will close so will limerick waterford, infact probably others will go before the political line between ennis and athenry

Grandeeod

eastwest wrote: »

I reckon that the only thing saving Ballybrophy is Kelly; it's as dead a duck as Ennis.
The next cabinet reshuffle should see an end to the former, and the latter will probably close soon after that.
In the current economic climate, governments can't be seen to cut things like supports for disability while leaving these white elephants alone.
It will be interesting to see what IE comes up with. Another proposal for a rail-bus, maybe?
http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1809#.UeTwSJG9KSM

Yup! Kelly is the political defender of the line via Nenagh. The irony is amusing. But then again it's more symptomatic of the overall political culture and it's ill informed invasion of public transport. Once a lobby intertwines itself with politicians or the operator, it becomes ineffective and meaningless. Sadly, free thinkers have no role to play anymore and we are left to forums like this. It's more about your social and economic status and how you can "fit" into the Status Quo. One look at WOT or RUI reveals all.

dowlingm

end of the road wrote: »

funny it may be but to be honest if i was in his situation trying to save a local line in my constituency from closing then thats what i'd be doing.

We will never be done with clientelism while politicians think that their votes hang on opinions like yours. The difference is that during the last recession IE didn't have Aircoach, Citylink et al poised to capitalise on every millstone the politicians refuse to let the company cast off.

I'm not saying lift the line but it should immediately enter a South Wexford style regime. With IE off the route AK could then ask the NTA to seek additional frequencies on the M7 from the bus lines including a commuter option from Roscrea to Limerick - a better result from his constituents than the duplication leaving Nenagh around 0730 at present.

eastwest

dowlingm wrote: »

We will never be done with clientelism while politicians think that their votes hang on opinions like yours. The difference is that during the last recession IE didn't have Aircoach, Citylink et al poised to capitalise on every millstone the politicians refuse to let the company cast off.

I'm not saying lift the line but it should immediately enter a South Wexford style regime. With IE off the route AK could then ask the NTA to seek additional frequencies on the M7 from the bus lines including a commuter option from Roscrea to Limerick - a better result from his constituents than the duplication leaving Nenagh around 0730 at present.

The problem is the fixation with rail as a transport solution. When you think about it, rail is a technology that developed before the ICE, when roads were poor and there weren't any cars or buses.
That's not saying that rail doesn't have a future, or a use. It works well where populations are concentrated and railways speed people past traffic congestion. It doesn't have a role where populations are thin and scattered; a bus will give a far better service to a population like this, and without the heavy subsidy and capital cost of rail.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

The problem is the fixation with rail as a transport solution. When you think about it, rail is a technology that developed before the ICE, when roads were poor and there weren't any cars or buses.
That's not saying that rail doesn't have a future, or a use. It works well where populations are concentrated and railways speed people past traffic congestion. It doesn't have a role where populations are thin and scattered; a bus will give a far better service to a population like this, and without the heavy subsidy and capital cost of rail.

Yes this is the crux of the matter, I go back to my O'level history and study of the industrial revolution the flow chart went something like this

Horse and Carts > Canal revolution> Railway revolution > Henry Ford.

Of course the Railways haven't been replaced by Road. Moving high volumes of commuters, or very fast intercity/interurban movement from large population centres to other large population centres quickly is critical rail infrastructure. In Ireland its all about good rail services to Dublin. Rural rail lines through dispersed population centres or even to small towns in the country over relatively short distances are not the way to go. The rural branch lines were closed for a reason, and the reason remains valid in not re-opening - the great experiment of re-opening the rural branch line of Ennis/Athenry has proven this. It happened. It didn't work. Lets move on and do something different.

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

along with some lines that shouldn't have been but were done to either teach the people along them a lesson or for other political reasons, or even to sell off the land to ones little friends, if their really had been no future for limerick nenagh ballybroaphy then its passenger service would have been stopped back in the 60s and 70s, however it was left to be ran down to oblivian, so i stand by what i said, if i was in his situation then yes i would be defending the line, if we had someone like him down here in wexford then maybe we wouldn't have seen rosslare waterford close, but who knows, i certainly would have been campaigning to not re-open ennis athenry specially at the expence of other lines

Is there any proof of this that can be put in front of a court? if not then it really belongs in conspiracy theories.

dowlingm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is there any proof of this that can be put in front of a court? if not then it really belongs in conspiracy theories.

The Indo hasn't found those tapes yet

flynnlives

Oranmore train station opens next week, single journey into galway is 5.10 euro!

the bus is 5.60euro return! and the bus stop is actually in oranmore!

the train station is about a mile outside oranmore and there are no footpaths on the busy road to it!
An absolutle joke!

but dont worry Varadkar will be out for the photo op!

serfboard

According to the Galway Independent, IE are to make further attempts to improve the uptake of Galway->Limerick. Referring to the NTA report, their spokesperson said:

Iarnrod Eireann wrote:

While the report outlines certain restrictions, such as the route alignment and the amount of level crossings which are not easily addressed, we will examine service offering, and scheduling issues raised, and have already removed car park charges at some stations. Online booking on the route will be introduced shortly.

However our local MEP is not impressed:

Jim Higgins, MEP wrote:

Why would you not allow people to book a train online? I believe Irish Rail are doing everything they can to keep passenger numbers down and eventually close the rail line.

I was promised in October last year that something would be done in the first part of 2013. Nothing has happened since. I simply do not believe Irish Rail want to introduce online booking for people in the West. The excuse Irish Rail gave me is that the trains are not suited to online booking. I think this is absolute rubbish.

Now leaving out the bit about not allowing online booking for "people in the West" (we can book Dublin-bound trains Jim!), I don't think introducing online booking will remove the biggest complaints about the service which were that it was "slow, infrequent and costly". Online booking might reduce the cost (very) slightly, but not by much, I would imagine, without drastically increasing the subsidy needed.

In relation to speed and frequency, they have only said they will "examine" the service offering and schedule, with the caveats about level crossings etc. built in.

foggy_lad

The problem with online booking is that with Irish Rails system you must get a seat allocated with every booking, this is too difficult for them when dealing with 2 or 3 different types of train especially when they may not know what train is going to be on each service as a train fault can disrupt such systems very easily.

If they had a ticket only booking system which was free to book it might help but they have not tried this up to now so we must assume it is not possible.

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

'Twill be interesting to see how this does. A 300 space car park is a big advantage, though as this will be operated by the County Council, I doubt it will be free. Add in the cost of the journey (8.60 return, cheaper obviously if you're using commuter tickets) and it could make it dear enough.

However, it's got good timetabling around peak hours (arriving 8:10, 8:35 and 9:25, leaving at 17:20, 17:50, 18:10 and 18:40) and it's quick (most journeys 10 minutes or less) so it will be handy if you're working in town.

Ballybrit/Parkmore/Mervue (i.e. major industrial areas) commuters will continue to drive, take the bus or cycle.

When will we stop kidding ourselves and realise Galway is a large town in real terms compared to other urban areas in Europe. A large town will not support this commuter service - because to put it bluntly there aren't enough people in the hinterland to justify it making the journey in and out everyday on rail services, this is where the whole WRC thing falls down: Demographics. This new station whilst nice to see in place will operate massively under capacity because of lack of demand not web based ticketing being available and agree with the above those in Ballybrit etc will stay just as they are.

westtip

Would cutting prices and internet fares make any difference? Would they make the trains go faster than the buses?

Is the WRC now clutching at straws for survival?

corktina

eastwest wrote: »

I'd love to know what percentage of the through traffic on Ennis-Athenry is on free travel passes. .

should be possible to work that out roughly....if the fare box is covering 5% of the costs and the line is losing €3 million per annum.....work that one out and you have the number of fare-paying passengers, deduct from total and that leaves pass-holders...only rough and I'm not doing the math!

corktina

petronius wrote: »

I am always amazed at the negative noise about the Western Rail Project
Many from Dublincentric folk

I think the western rail corridor has major potential for helping with the development of the west of ireland.
It surely enhances a commuter rail link to Galway and limerick two university towns which would surely have some student traffic options.
Ultimately Tourist traffic could be a major user of the potentially linking
Cork to Limerick, to ennis to athenry and galway and up to sligo
You could have a Waterford, Clonmel, Limerick and on to Galway
I would give tourists the option of staying on the western side of the country and not having to fliter back to dublin via the radial railway network

tourists?..it's there all the way from Galway to Waterford and they aren't using it....

7 passengers per train on average...none of them students because the coach is cheaper (and much quicker)


Read the thread....€103 million spent to carry 7 passengers per train...losing another €3 million plus per annum......coaches quicker....coaches cheaper....parallel motorway....

PS I'm not from Dubin

dowlingm

wonder88 wrote: »

The fare from Oranmore to city is expensive enough. You would think IE would bring in an introductory price of say 3euro and 5 return to try and get people used to the service. The price they are charging does not compare well to fares on Dart and Dublin commuter trains.

Realistically I'd say IE are looking for Oranmore-Dublin/Limerick traffic a lot more than they are Oranmore-Galway traffic - many of these will be shifts of people who currently have to make their way into town or Athenry to pick up a preferred service. There are rationales of how IE charge fares with respect to express rather than stopping routes etc. You either accept them or you don't, it's not unique to Galway.

petronius - it is surely fair to say now that 106m in capital (plus costs expended after opening) and several million in operating losses later it's time for the proWRC side to take stock and stop blaming the boogeymen in Dublin for everything. Negativity can impact a service but not to that degree so eventually you have to say "there are reasons people aren't taking the service". Some of it, to be sure, is from the IE side but some of it is quite simply a lack of interest from the catchment coupled to the economic crisis which has reduced total transport demand below even the worst case in the laughable business cases used to get this line built.

The X51 bus, introduced by BE five months after the Ennis-Athenry section reopened is slaughtering the Limerick-Galway service because it is timetabled for 1h20m with the additional ability to pick up the Friday/Sunday student trade at GMIT, UL and LIT. The WRC types blamed the rolling stock but 22Ks have been put on some links and it hasn't made much if any difference. A quick look at a map would tell you Tuam faces much the same challenges as Ennis-Galway - a direct 35km road route facing an 53km L shaped rail route.

At one point the Limerick-Galway rail offering did hit 7 rotations per direction per day which is a damn sight more than Limerick Junction-Waterford gets on weekdays and 100% more than they get on Sundays when the line is closed - ironically the Limerick-Waterford line were it to be aggressively timetabled could actually beat its bus counterpart given that they run more or less in parallel, unlike the Galway rail wandering off east to Athenry and given the relative lack of investment in the N24 compared to the N18. But when the first cut comes, the Wesht will schream the loudesht and the weeds will sprout in Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir.

As it stands, the WRC losses aren't split out within IE's public books, but it's already known that if IE is obliged to split into infrastructure and operating divisions then the charges the operating side will have to absorb on the lightly patronised lines will not be swept under the rug so easily. Then the fat will be in the fire in earnest - and not just in the West.

petronius

Cost is a factor - if they are competitively priced more people will travel and it should increase revenue.

Service provided is a key factor, free wifi on the trains is a big plus in my view, train stations easy carparking and with restrooms and shops, cafes, particularly at the connecting stations Athenry

Connectivity is a major factor, if you can easily integrate with other networks, i.e. a galway commuter service athenry giving people the chance to map their routes say limerick to athlone.

Timetabling is crucial to the success - because of lack of confidence (and awkwarness) in the system being integrated people travelling from say galway to waterford, or clonmel to athlone dont even consider using rail.

Using exising lines and links you can could go from cork to sligo
cork - limerick junction
Limerick Junction - Limerick
Limerick-Athenry
Athenry-athlone
Athlone - Mullingar (now if there was a service on it?)
Mulingar - Sligo

foggy_lad

petronius wrote: »

I am always amazed at the negative noise about the Western Rail Project
Many from Dublincentric folk

I think the western rail corridor has major potential for helping with the development of the west of ireland.
It surely enhances a commuter rail link to Galway and limerick two university towns which would surely have some student traffic options.
Ultimately Tourist traffic could be a major user of the potentially linking
Cork to Limerick, to ennis to athenry and galway and up to sligo
You could have a Waterford, Clonmel, Limerick and on to Galway
I would give tourists the option of staying on the western side of the country and not having to fliter back to dublin via the radial railway network

For all these connections and links for students commuters and tourists the line would need a train each way every hour to keep journey time at a reasonable length. if people are left waiting for an hour or two on connecting trains they start thinking of the value of a connection in Dublin and being able to do some shopping etc.

corktina

petronius wrote: »

Cost is a factor - if they are competitively priced more people will travel and it should increase revenue.

Service provided is a key factor, free wifi on the trains is a big plus in my view, train stations easy carparking and with restrooms and shops, cafes, particularly at the connecting stations Athenry

Connectivity is a major factor, if you can easily integrate with other networks, i.e. a galway commuter service athenry giving people the chance to map their routes say limerick to athlone.

Timetabling is crucial to the success - because of lack of confidence (and awkwarness) in the system being integrated people travelling from say galway to waterford, or clonmel to athlone dont even consider using rail.

Using exising lines and links you can could go from cork to sligo
cork - limerick junction
Limerick Junction - Limerick
Limerick-Athenry
Athenry-athlone
Athlone - Mullingar (now if there was a service on it?)
Mulingar - Sligo

you can of course do that now via Dublin...you would be investing money to get your existing passengers to use another route.

eastwest

foggy_lad wrote: »

For all these connections and links for students commuters and tourists the line would need a train each way every hour to keep journey time at a reasonable length. if people are left waiting for an hour or two on connecting trains they start thinking of the value of a connection in Dublin and being able to do some shopping etc.

Students will always take the quickest and cheapest option; in this case, the bus.
As other posters have pointed out, the L-shaped routes from Ennis and Tuam to Galway via Athenry aren't attractive to most people. Ennis- Athenry has proved this case beyond any doubt, and talk of repeating the mistake with Tuam makes no sense.
Fortunately for taxpayers, the ministers concerned know that, and won't be stampeded into a repeat of the Ennis-Athenry debacle.
It's over. The WRC notion lives on only in the heads of a few railway buffs, and on the pages of political manifestos.

eastwest

corktina wrote: »

you can of course do that now via Dublin...you would be investing money to get your existing passengers to use another route.

If any closed line is ever to have a case for reopening it is probably Mullingar-Athlone. That would allow for a Galway-Sligo service if a demand ever arose for it.
However the most likely solution to public transport needs in that area is always going to be bus. When the Gort-Tuam motorway is complete, people need to lobby to extend that road northwards to improve connectivity to Sligo, Castlebar etc.
once the road network is up to an adequate standard, the issue of rail becomes irrelevant, particularly the idea of rail on a twisting route that goes everywhere and nowhere.

petronius

Mullingar to Athlone should be reopened and have a mullingar to galway service

The reason the L shaped route Tuam Galway or ennis galway have issues is the stop at athenry and time it takes
If it is an efficient service and the schedules dovetail then it shouldn't be an issue.
Assuming on a tuam line is not direct to galway and either goes to ennis and you board a galway commuter line

Sure students will seek a cheaper option but if there is a discounted student weekly or monthly ticket - or 10 journey tickets which make it competitive then people will use it.

Tourists many see rail travel as a way to see the country - and many i the west dont want to sit on a cramped bus or hire a car
Another type of tourist is the cycle tourist and they may wish to say bring bikes on the train and this is a facility often forgotten by irish rail

I think if i was doing business in galway city it would be nicer to get a train say from ennis, limerick or waterford to glaway city centre and have time on board to email etc. than drive.

Motorways are fine where appropriate, but not everyone has a car or wants to use one and cars do have a larger carbon footprint than the same number of people travelling by train.

eastwest

petronius wrote: »

Mullingar to Athlone should be reopened and have a mullingar to galway service

The reason the L shaped route Tuam Galway or ennis galway have issues is the stop at athenry and time it takes
If it is an efficient service and the schedules dovetail then it shouldn't be an issue.
Assuming on a tuam line is not direct to galway and either goes to ennis and you board a galway commuter line

Sure students will seek a cheaper option but if there is a discounted student weekly or monthly ticket - or 10 journey tickets which make it competitive then people will use it.

Tourists many see rail travel as a way to see the country - and many i the west dont want to sit on a cramped bus or hire a car
Another type of tourist is the cycle tourist and they may wish to say bring bikes on the train and this is a facility often forgotten by irish rail

I think if i was doing business in galway city it would be nicer to get a train say from ennis, limerick or waterford to glaway city centre and have time on board to email etc. than drive.

Motorways are fine where appropriate, but not everyone has a car or wants to use one and cars do have a larger carbon footprint than the same number of people travelling by train.

It's not going to happen though, as can be seen from recent statements coming from government. They just don't have the money for one thing, and even if they had, they would be crucified if they threw away a billion euro in a lightly-populated area just because a very small number of people in the west like to take an occasional ride on a train.
There is also the issue of the existing network; it needs investment (see link). Finding that investment won't be easy, and lack of resources will undoubtedly lead to further closures. Nenagh seems set to be one loser, but the Ennis-Athenry line surely can't survive at the current level of usage either. It needs at least ten times the current usage to make it cover just 50% of operating costs; is that likely to happen? I doubt it.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/deferring-upgrading-works-could-be-costly-gamble-29529697.html

corktina

petronius wrote: »

Motorways are fine where appropriate, but not everyone has a car or wants to use one and cars do have a larger carbon footprint than the same number of people travelling by train.

trains on the WRC have a massively bigger carbon footprint than cars....a whole train for two carloads of people...or one if you use a people carrier...

Laviski

eastwest wrote: »

It's not going to happen though, as can be seen from recent statements coming from government. They just don't have the money for one thing, and even if they had, they would be crucified if they threw away a billion euro in a lightly-populated area just because a very small number of people in the west like to take an occasional ride on a train.
There is also the issue of the existing network; it needs investment (see link). Finding that investment won't be easy, and lack of resources will undoubtedly lead to further closures. Nenagh seems set to be one loser, but the Ennis-Athenry line surely can't survive at the current level of usage either. It needs at least ten times the current usage to make it cover just 50% of operating costs; is that likely to happen? I doubt it.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/deferring-upgrading-works-could-be-costly-gamble-29529697.html

that is simply down to Irish Rail Pricing Policy. They need to be compete with bus and their price should reflect that. If and thats a big If they did the numbers would grow.

WRC is a failure for its pricing policy and not able to book online.
Its a failure with the semi state bodies in general, increase prices and expect same numbers to use it. There is supposed to be a fare increase in the CIE group for 2014 or least they will try and even less people to use it. it defeats the purpose of setting up infrastructure be rail or bus.

people bash ryanair for various reasons. but their model should be adopted to irish rail. I know they do decent online fare to dublin from galway but as i just said its not available for the WRC. if they got seat they should change their price to make poeopl take those seats.


its would take a miracle for this type of thinking to happen i know but until then lets everyone vote FF again for the craic.

foggy_lad

Laviski wrote: »

that is simply down to Irish Rail Pricing Policy. They need to be compete with bus and their price should reflect that. If and thats a big If they did the numbers would grow.

WRC is a failure for its pricing policy and not able to book online.
Its a failure with the semi state bodies in general, increase prices and expect same numbers to use it. There is supposed to be a fare increase in the CIE group for 2014 or least they will try and even less people to use it. it defeats the purpose of setting up infrastructure be rail or bus.

people bash ryanair for various reasons. but their model should be adopted to irish rail. I know they do decent online fare to dublin from galway but as i just said its not available for the WRC. if they got seat they should change their price to make poeopl take those seats.


its would take a miracle for this type of thinking to happen i know but until then lets everyone vote FF again for the craic.

How can it be priced any better? it is losing 3 million a year on running costs, they could save most of this by running only one train a week to keep the line open and in use, if they half the ticket prices they will lose twice as much because there are not enough people in the west that want or need to use this service!

Laviski

foggy_lad wrote: »

How can it be priced any better? it is losing 3 million a year on running costs, they could save most of this by running only one train a week to keep the line open and in use, if they half the ticket prices they will lose twice as much because there are not enough people in the west that want or need to use this service!

losing money cause the trains are running empty. i have used this service several times and always empty. CIE just needs to reduce costs at all levels and be realistic with prices reward those who book online get those trains stuffed. and people would use it if it was cheaper than bus. Yes proberly not gonna happen like i've said but lack of online fares is being a drawback.

no more than leo taking away the tolls for truck drivers for a trial this should be done and if it still fails then by all means close the dam thing.

corktina

yes but you could say the same for every line in the country. What is so special about this line that it should get preferential treatment? If they reduced prices and it failed (which it would imo) then what effect would that have on the rest of the system that has to carry that loss? One line already closed to provide resources for the WRC (a line BETTER patronised too)...are more to be sacrificed for the WRC?

foggy_lad

Laviski wrote: »

losing money cause the trains are running empty. i have used this service several times and always empty. CIE just needs to reduce costs at all levels and be realistic with prices reward those who book online get those trains stuffed. and people would use it if it was cheaper than bus. Yes proberly not gonna happen like i've said but lack of online fares is being a drawback.

no more than leo taking away the tolls for truck drivers for a trial this should be done and if it still fails then by all means close the dam thing.

One of the problems is that for most people to get the train they will have to drive a few miles or several miles to the station while they can get on the bus in the local village/town. when in the car driving to the station with the family most do the maths and figure they may as well drive as it is much faster and very much cheaper than even the family tickets!

There are not enough passengers or potential passengers in the path of that old railway line to ever fill a train unless they were all on an outing together.

Laviski

corktina wrote: »

yes but you could say the same for every line in the country. What is so special about this line that it should get preferential treatment? If they reduced prices and it failed (which it would imo) then what effect would that have on the rest of the system that has to carry that loss? One line already closed to provide resources for the WRC (a line BETTER patronised too)...are more to be sacrificed for the WRC?

with that line of thought shut down all CIE operations that are loss making then.

foggy_lad

Laviski wrote: »

with that line of thought shut down all CIE operations that are loss making then.

No only the ones that will never have enough passengers to make the service viable. the best this line has been doing is to average one less passenger per train than last year so it would be cheaper to send those 7-8 passengers in their own personal taxis than run the service!

What other lines are running with so few passengers?

corktina

the lines a turkey, the dogs in the street know that....if you halved the fares and doubled the passengers, it would still lose €3 million pa and fares would still cover only 5% of the costs.

The coach is already cheaper and faster by far so no one will switch from that (you don't imagine the Coach companies wouldn't slash THEIR fares in response do you?)so where will these passengers come from?

Laviski

if you don't believe cost is a deciding issue in people to use it then ...........................

corktina

the reason no one uses it is because there are very few people en route to use it.

TINA1984

Laviski wrote: »

with that line of thought shut down all CIE operations that are loss making then.

Afaik most IE operations are loss making. The key difference between say the Cork Commuter services and the WRC is that the former is well utilised whilst the latter isn't.

I'm all for subsidised railways so long as they serve some purpose, but its clear that Ennis -Athenry has little public benefit. WOT said if they build it then the people would come to use it, they haven't. So shut it down, or scale back services dramatically, and write off the €100m+ it cost to re-open the line as another Celtic Tiger folly.

eastwest

Laviski wrote: »

losing money cause the trains are running empty. i have used this service several times and always empty. CIE just needs to reduce costs at all levels and be realistic with prices reward those who book online get those trains stuffed. and people would use it if it was cheaper than bus. Yes proberly not gonna happen like i've said but lack of online fares is being a drawback.

no more than leo taking away the tolls for truck drivers for a trial this should be done and if it still fails then by all means close the dam thing.

Certainly no harm in trying a few long shots, but at an average eight passengers per train, and with an undefined number of those paid for from the public purse, this line looks to just be too far off viability to survive.
The best that a good marketing campaign and a better online presence might do would be to double or treble passenger numbers, and that amount of growth could best be described as unprecedented. But if this growth was achieved by lowering fares, the problem wouldn't have changed much.
The mistake that was made was in government listening to wishful economics from a well-connected lobby group. They built a line in the wrong place, simply because the alignment was there, and nobody wanted to use it.
No amount of moving the deckchairs around will change the fact that the ship is holed below the waterline.

corktina

the line will never compete with a 1 hour 21 min coach...thats around 40 minutes quicker....even with rocket propulsion they couldn't match that on a twisty meandering route with a reversal thrown in.

Laviski

eastwest wrote: »

Certainly no harm in trying a few long shots, but at an average eight passengers per train, and with an undefined number of those paid for from the public purse, this line looks to just be too far off viability to survive.
The best that a good marketing campaign and a better online presence might do would be to double or treble passenger numbers, and that amount of growth could best be described as unprecedented. But if this growth was achieved by lowering fares, the problem wouldn't have changed much.
The mistake that was made was in government listening to wishful economics from a well-connected lobby group. They built a line in the wrong place, simply because the alignment was there, and nobody wanted to use it.
No amount of moving the deckchairs around will change the fact that the ship is holed below the waterline.

at least someone read my posts and understands what i said. Yes the previous goverment had made lots of a mistakes and i'm sure they will be back in again to make some more. but the line is built now and substantial money thrown at it, so they won't close it any time in the near future. those previous posters can do all the bashing shouting and whatever agenda they have to close it down all they want.

I was just posting a fresh approach to see if they change the drop in numbers. Leo is doing a deal for truck drivers and would be interested to see the result of his experiment. And they same should be done for the WRC and there are people there along that line and those that would use that line from the dublin galway route that want to go to limerick etc so don't give me that, people are there but the prices are stupid and no online fares.

such negative crap being posted it rather unreal. no doubt they are the minions to revive the previous administration.

corktina

it's not a fresh appraoch, it's the same old same old. If anything the fares should be increased, which wouldn't make much difference as most the passengers travewl free anyway.

eastwest

Laviski wrote: »

but the line is built now and substantial money thrown at it, so they won't close it any time in the near future. those previous posters can do all the bashing shouting and whatever agenda they have to close it down all they want.
.

I'm not so sure that they won't close it. I listened to what Minister Kelly said a few weeks back about transparency in spending on public transport, and the need to base all decisions from now on on actual facts and figures. It is my belief that in the case of a reshuffle of Juniors to take account of the abortion fallout -- fairly likely in the medium term -- Kelly might be a better fit in tourism given his background in Failte Ireland. Any new incumbent will almost certainly close the Nenagh line and would then have to look seriously at Ennis Athenry. At the very least, they may well scale back the service on it to take account of usage; if a lesser number of trains attracted the same customer base, i.e. if a percentage of users aren't too bothered when the trains run, that would be an improvement of sorts.
Whatever happens, I think it is now very clear that the notion of extending the western rail corridor north of Athenry is a dead duck. As a taxpayer, I'm not too upset about that, to be honest.
Another possible option would be to privatise the Limerick to Galway route, including the commuter routes into Limerick and Galway, but I'm not sure if the brothers are ready for that. A private company with a decent subsidy could probably do the business cheaper though, with a net saving to the state.

bk

Laviski wrote: »

if you don't believe cost is a deciding issue in people to use it then ...........................

Reducing ticket prices to the same as the bus still won't fix the problem that:

1) The bus is 40 minutes faster for the same journey
2) The train stations tend to be far outside population centers and need to be driven too, while in most cases the bus serves town centers.

Even if the price was the same as the bus, no one is going to sit in a train for an extra 40 minutes!