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Western Rail Corridor (Galway-Limerick section)

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    #92
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Yes it has failed but the one good thing that will come from it is that it won't happen again (not without heads rolling anyway)


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    #93
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    westtip wrote: »
    It will never be commercially viable - so we have to be careful when we use such words. Half the ticket prices and double the number of passengers (to average of 16 per train) results in same revenue and overheads and costs remain the same. Most public transport services are not viable commercially and lose money and are subvented; there is nothing wrong with that, some things need to be funded from the state, the point that needs to be looked at with any service is when does the subvention cost per passenger become unsustainable and unjustified. We have probably reached this stage now on the WRC. In any event, if it can be proven that a private operator can offer a quicker and cheaper alternative - which the xpress bus services between galway and limerick seem to be doing, how can it be justified to subvent one service even further in order to allow it to compete with a private service - someone in the private bus companies would cry foul. This is the dilemna of private versus public in any transport solution. If the subvention on the WRC from Ennis to Athenry (providing the link between galway/Limerick) was re-directed to the rural bus schemes - would that have the greater benefit for the greater number. We do need subvention on rural transport in the west, to make parts of our community socially inclusive, but I am not convinced that subventing a slow and inefficient rail line that can no longer compete with the xpress bus services is the right choice and not sure it really adds to any kind of social inclusion. We need to face facts, phase one of the Western Rail corridor has failed, it was an interesting and costly experiment, but it has failed. Time to move on.

    oh and BTW, oranmore is on the main Dublin - Galway line - so if the promotion results in more people using the short hop commuter service into Galway on this line, it is not an issue of more people using the WRC, although no doubt some spin will be made of it by WOT!

    While I accept your points about subvention, those private bus services are only faster than the train because the government spent hundreds of millions of euro building the M18. That in it's self is a form of subvention. If a similar amount of money was invested in rail, Limerick to Galway would be double track and on a new more direct alignment with provision made for future electrification. And it would certainly be faster and more popular than any road connection between the two cities.


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    #94
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,609 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Has anyone any information on how loadings are doing out of Oranmore?


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    #95
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    westtip wrote: »
    if it can be proven that a private operator can offer a quicker and cheaper alternative - which the xpress bus services between galway and limerick seem to be doing, how can it be justified to subvent one service even further in order to allow it to compete with a private service - someone in the private bus companies would cry foul.
    i'm sorry but tough s//t on them, let them cry foul, its not the job of the government to help private operators by not subsidizing other forms of transport such as the WRC for example, i agree with most of your point but i can't and don't care if the private operators get upset about us subsidizing the railway, galway limerick as a rail route concept is viable but not on the old badly built alinement that much of it is on, but its not going to be rebuilt on a new one now for definite, limerick ennis and galway athenry are doing okay i believe, could ennis athenry destroy the good work done for limerick ennis i wonder? i hope to jesus not, ideally the stations on ennis athenry apart from gort maybe shouldn't have been built but they are now and we are where we are, what is for sure is that limerick waterford which has more users will be gone (along with others i fear) just to keep this political stunt open

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #96
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you are of course quite right EotR.
    The money spent on re-opening a defective route was a waste and I would have preferred to have seen twice as much or more spent on a better route.
    It will be a crying shame if eventually the plug is pulled on this line now if it affects The southern operation that was suceeding pre-reopening.

    I agree that the intermediate stations should not have been built and a simple direct chord at Athenry would have been a good idea, but then that would not fit in with certain interested parties plan for a whole WRC re-opening all the way to Sligo


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    #97
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    corktina wrote: »
    you are of course quite right EotR.
    The money spent on re-opening a defective route was a waste and I would have preferred to have seen twice as much or more spent on a better route.
    It will be a crying shame if eventually the plug is pulled on this line now if it affects The southern operation that was suceeding pre-reopening.

    I agree that the intermediate stations should not have been built and a simple direct chord at Athenry would have been a good idea, but then that would not fit in with certain interested parties plan for a whole WRC re-opening all the way to Sligo

    Hopefully any further decisions on railways will be made in the light of proper planning and not on the basis of the views of a few well-connected steam-train enthusiasts.
    I'd say that closure is not a million miles away when it comes to this section though. If the threats to the free travel for pensioners come to anything, that may leave some trains running empty on this route, which can't be justified.
    A line all the way to Sligo will never happen, unless some global seismic event delivers us tens of billions of euro to get us out of the hole we're in, and that such a miraculous event coincides with having Bertie Ahern and the Greens back in power, with Brian Cowen back in Finance.


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    #98
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    you are of course quite right EotR.
    The money spent on re-opening a defective route was a waste and I would have preferred to have seen twice as much or more spent on a better route.
    It will be a crying shame if eventually the plug is pulled on this line now if it affects The southern operation that was suceeding pre-reopening.

    I agree that the intermediate stations should not have been built and a simple direct chord at Athenry would have been a good idea, but then that would not fit in with certain interested parties plan for a whole WRC re-opening all the way to Sligo
    and that my friends is the sad reality of the shambles that is the rebuilt ennis athenry section, imagine the train leaving limerick stopping at ennis athenry galway, 3 stops and then later on add oranmore for the galway main line, and then see if theirs a good case for gort, the potential was there for this line had it been done right and now it has been squandered, a sad sad shame, hopefully we can learn from this and hopefully this won't effect the chances for the navon line (which should have been opened years ago but how and ever)

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #99
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    The intermediate stations should be put on use it or lose it protection, Either buy 100 annual tickets or the train stops twice a day.

    Of course such tickets should possibly be reduced in price to inflate demand.

    Is there online booking and online seat reservations yet?

    If Irish Rail can do Dublin - Cork for €10 why not Limerick - Galway have a €5 promotional fare.

    Why not let Irish rail operate the infrastructure but a different operator run the service, market the line, brand the line etc.

    A cross country lines brand covering Galway, Limerick, Kerry, Waterford, Nenagh and dare I say Wexford.

    A lot of innovative thinking is required but I don't think any politician wants to touch this with a bargepole.


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    #100
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,852 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    relaxed wrote: »
    The intermediate stations should be put on use it or lose it protection, Either buy 100 annual tickets or the train stops twice a day.

    they spent a lot of money on those stations - given that the line is already slow, how much time would be saved by not stopping at them?


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    #101
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you think we should still stop at them just so we can say the money wasn't wasted building them?


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    #102
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    corktina wrote: »
    you think we should still stop at them just so we can say the money wasn't wasted building them?

    That's a lot of the problem, nobody wants to admit they were wrong to open the stations, and the locals probably think they add €5000 to the value of their house, so instead of closing them they will be left there.

    But this is Ireland so now they want to build Crusheen a station because it looks good for a politician to be campaigning for and delivering it.


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    #103
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    that should be cancelled as a minimum!


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    #104
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,609 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It has been.


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    #105
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It has been.
    really? I missed that!


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    #106
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,609 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    corktina wrote: »
    really? I missed that!

    Sorry, I should correct myself. The Minister has asked them to reanalyse the costings - I suspect that's code for this won't happen in the short to medium term.


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    #107
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,327 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    it isn't just time lost at those stations - takes more fuel to get back up to speed from rest than to coast through without stopping.


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    #108
    glineli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭glineli


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Sorry, I should correct myself. The Minister has asked them to reanalyse the costings - I suspect that's code for this won't happen in the short to medium term.

    Leo said it was €2m for a village with 800 people, didnt make sense. So it has been pushed back.

    I think they should let some trains go straight through Ardrahan, no stopping, see what times and costs they save


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    #109
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    cgcsb wrote: »
    While I accept your points about subvention, those private bus services are only faster than the train because the government spent hundreds of millions of euro building the M18.

    To an extent that is correct, without the M18, the buses would be slower, but would they be slower than the train? Doubtful

    cgcsb wrote: »
    That in it's self is a form of subvention.

    One man's subvention is another man's necessary infrastructure. Per traveller the subvention on the M18 could well be much less than the subvention on the WRC, given the numbers who travel the M18, and the respective lifespans.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    If a similar amount of money was invested in rail, Limerick to Galway would be double track and on a new more direct alignment with provision made for future electrification.

    Yes, but to what purpose?

    cgcsb wrote: »
    And it would certainly be faster and more popular than any road connection between the two cities.

    Faster? With the stops and the route? Questionable.

    More popular? With rail enthusiasts certainly. With others, who knows?

    More convenient with more frequent and better service? I doubt it.

    Cheaper? No.


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    #110
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    "faster and more popular than any road connection between the two cities."

    any connection? well to determine competing times, you have to measure door to door and I contend that even if you jet-propelled the train, the car would still be faster (and cheaper) door to door.


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    #111
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    I contend that even if you jet-propelled the train, the car would still be faster (and cheaper) door to door.
    if you jet-propelled the train theirs no way the car could beat the train, if you jet-propelled them both then god only knows

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #112
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    Drop the trains and the cars and give everyone a jet pack.


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    #113
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Drop the trains and the cars and give everyone a jet pack.
    and wings, yeah that would be so cool but it won't happen

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #114
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Godge wrote: »
    Faster? With the stops and the route? Questionable.

    More popular? With rail enthusiasts certainly. With others, who knows?

    More convenient with more frequent and better service? I doubt it.

    Cheaper? No.

    I mean on a more direct route, with high quality double track. Of course that means double tracking Oranmore to Galway.


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    #115
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    end of the road wrote: »
    if you jet-propelled the train theirs no way the car could beat the train, if you jet-propelled them both then god only knows
    oh yes it would, the car goes to your destination , the train doesn't. That's the simple truth .
    If I use the train, I have to get to the station (12 miles away), park and get on to the platform in good time. By the time I would get on the train, I would be a good way down the road towards my destination had I continued by car. At the other end, I step out of my car at the destination. By train, I still have to get a bus or taxi or walk to my destination. The only way the train would be better in terms of speed would be over a long distance, and we don't have them on this island.

    (I'm going to Dublin Airport this evening.I reckon three hours....how long would that take including the train?)


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    #116
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    Since there isn't a train service yet to Dublin Airport that's not a fair comparison.


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    #117
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    why not? there aren't train services to almost everywhere!


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    #118
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    end of the road wrote: »
    and wings, yeah that would be so cool but it won't happen


    What about self driving electric cars as well? That was an idea deemed to be C&T suitable also. They may not be commercially feasible now but may well be in the future. Anyone got any info as to what degree of testing has been done on jet pack technology?


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    #119
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i already pointed out that the march of technology might well make that possible in a very short number of years.(I got pilloried for it).

    All the elements are there already,(sat nav, electric cars, self-parking cars, automatic emergency braking, etc)

    I didn't propose a Jet Pack though


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    #120
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    oh yes it would, the car goes to your destination , the train doesn't. That's the simple truth .
    well you mentioned jetprepelling the train so therefore if you did that but not the car the train would beat the car and thats the truth
    corktina wrote: »
    By train, I still have to get a bus or taxi or walk to my destination.
    you maybe, but that doesn't mean its the same for everyone
    corktina wrote: »
    The only way the train would be better in terms of speed would be over a long distance, and we don't have them on this island.
    wrong, all journeys from most rail termini to dublin are long, westport for example, or try the train between dublin and rosslare, nearly 3 hours, thats a bluddy long distance journey, the bus is longer again.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #121
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,402 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Drop the trains and the cars and give everyone a jet pack.

    No doubt it would be a lot cheaper :pac:


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