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Western Rail Corridor (Galway-Limerick section)

2456

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    3, the bus companies would reduce their prices if they were losing passengers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭TINA1984


    Laviski wrote: »
    at least someone read my posts and understands what i said. Yes the previous goverment had made lots of a mistakes and i'm sure they will be back in again to make some more. but the line is built now and substantial money thrown at it, so they won't close it any time in the near future. those previous posters can do all the bashing shouting and whatever agenda they have to close it down all they want.

    In the great scheme of things, the €100m+ it cost to re-open it is small beer. Its the whopper of the yearly subvention - minimum €3m and probably a lot more given how dismal PAX has been - is what will torpedo the Ennis - Athenry section eventually.

    Given the CIE group will almost certainly have its subvention cut year on year for the next few years minimum eventually the thorny issue of reducing WRC services will happen. It would be nonsensical for IE to axe services on lines which are actually used by people to keep the Fresh Air Express operating.

    OH btw no agenda here, just an academic interest in planning and infrastructure provision.
    Laviski wrote: »
    I was just posting a fresh approach to see if they change the drop in numbers. Leo is doing a deal for truck drivers and would be interested to see the result of his experiment. And they same should be done for the WRC and there are people there along that line and those that would use that line from the dublin galway route that want to go to limerick etc so don't give me that, people are there but the prices are stupid and no online fares.

    There's nothing fresh about your approach, you just want to throw more good money after bad. Fwiw I'd agree that online booking should be extended, but I seriously doubt either that or fare reductions will be the magical panacea you think it might be to cure the inherent flaws present in the WRC.

    Personally I'd be of the opinion that the WRC should be merged with Limerick - Limerick Jtn - Waterford to form a single cross country service with the closure of the pointless Co. Galway/Clare village stops. Even then would it be competitive with the X51 or Limerick - Waterford bus? hard to say but its probably got more chance of attracting pax then the current set of the Munster & Connacht provincial lines do currently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The only line bleeding more red ink than the WRC is the one which runs through Minister Kelly's political heartland. If he is serious about putting the national interest first, he should announce its closure "pour encourager les autres" and to stop the depressing sight of IE spending money on bustitutions for maintenance possessions on a line surely doomed to South Wexford-style "preservation".

    I'm not actually sold on closing Ennis-Athenry as is but I think the rationale for permitting the 51X was deeply suspect on the part of the NTA when Citylink are also operating 5 express runs per direction per day. The stops at Ardrahan and Craughwell should be reduced immediately the way Woodlawn and Attymon were with the community notified that if things don't improve within 2 months the stations will be closed outright. At the same time NTA should announce a licence review with a view to capacity management in a way they seem to be leaning towards on the Mullingar-Dublin corridor.

    Laviski - your posts have ranged from "sell the service even further below cost", "if we can't have it because of losses nobody can have it", "sure ye're all Fianna Failers for disagreeing with me". How constructive a discussion do you think you're going to get from that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    dowlingm you have ranted on and on about the X51 - the fact that the buses are operating every hour and have done so for some time suggests there is a market for it. Indeed any time I've used it, the loads were quite healthy.

    If you're seriously suggesting that if Bus Eireann had not entered the market that Citylink or someone else would not have applied for a similar service, then I think you are living on a different planet.

    The amount of extra services Bus Eireann had to add in years gone by prior to the X51's birth (effectively many route 51 buses were doubled up) to deal with the loads is testimony to the demand.

    The bus service would be there regardless - it just happens to be Bus Eireann that operates it.

    That element of your argument is ludicrous.

    The difference between this route and Mullingar is that the bus services are not subsidised on this route which clearly they are with route 115.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    corktina wrote: »
    3, the bus companies would reduce their prices if they were losing passengers

    That is a very good point. Bus services will always be cheaper to run then rail services *. So therefore bus companies will always be able to offer lower ticket prices then rail. They certainly wouldn't just stand still if Irish Rail halved their ticket prices.

    There might also be serious questions asked in court/eu level if the government were seen to subsidise one publicly owned service to compete against a profitable private service. Sure the WRC is already heavily subsidised, but subsidising it so much that ticket prices match the private coach operator might raise red flags at EU level.

    In order for rail to compete with bus services it ideally needs to be faster then the coach service or at least match it with greater reliability (no traffic) in order to justify higher ticket prices which are necessary to pay for the higher running costs.

    Also ideally rail needs a large number of people living with walking/cycling distance of the station.

    The WRC has non of these and it never will and that is why it should have never been built on it's current alignment.

    * Yes, coach services benefit from infrastructure already paid for by cars, but that is just the reality that rail has to deal with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    lxflyer - I noted that Citylink have a similar 1h20m. Thanks for playing though. 106m Euro dropped on a new alignment and a subsidiary of CIE opens a service 5 months later which blows an even bigger hole in the rationale for it? That might go down well at the Progressive Democrat Alumni Association, watching state companies (technically the same company!) cut its/their own throat but it doesn't sit well with me.

    My point is that this free for all business is going to have to stop. Capacity management is going to be the order of the day and locophiles and busphiles are going to have to get used to that. The alternative is both state and private operators going to the wall after round after round of price wars.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    lxflyer - I noted that Citylink have a similar 1h20m. Thanks for playing though. 106m Euro dropped on a new alignment and a subsidiary of CIE opens a service 5 months later which blows an even bigger hole in the rationale for it? That might go down well at the Progressive Democrat Alumni Association, watching state companies (technically the same company!) cut its/their own throat but it doesn't sit well with me.

    My point is that this free for all business is going to have to stop. Capacity management is going to be the order of the day and locophiles and busphiles are going to have to get used to that. The alternative is both state and private operators going to the wall after round after round of price wars.
    So basically the doubling up on journeys by the different arms of CIE will have to stop, that means closing the WRC as well as the train from Gorey or even Greystones to Wexford and also a radical cutting back on the Cork route for Irish Rail as well as many Dublin Bus routes being cut or curtailed as they serve all the same places as the dart and commuter rail.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    dowlingm wrote: »
    lxflyer - I noted that Citylink have a similar 1h20m. Thanks for playing though. 106m Euro dropped on a new alignment and a subsidiary of CIE opens a service 5 months later which blows an even bigger hole in the rationale for it? That might go down well at the Progressive Democrat Alumni Association, watching state companies (technically the same company!) cut its/their own throat but it doesn't sit well with me.

    My point is that this free for all business is going to have to stop. Capacity management is going to be the order of the day and locophiles and busphiles are going to have to get used to that. The alternative is both state and private operators going to the wall after round after round of price wars.

    I'm sorry, but it is NOT a free for all.

    The NTA are managing the commercial bus services very closely. I appreciate bus and coaches are not really your thing, but if you had bothered to read the NTA guidelines on private commercial licensing you would see that that there reasonably clear rules that mean no two commercial operators can operate services on the same route within 30 minutes of one another.

    By your logic, consumers should be deprived of the coach service on the route. Well I'm sorry - that is not how it should work.

    You clearly have never used the bus services on the route - the demand exists for it.

    If you're seriously suggesting that because some politicians forced the re-opening of the WRC (let's be honest - that's what did happen), Bus Eireann or indeed anyone else shouldn't provide a commercial express bus service on the newly opened motorway then you really living somewhere very strange.

    That's almost akin to saying there should be no express coach services between Dublin and Cork or Dublin and Galway on those motorways.

    I'm sorry, but people are entitled to a choice.

    Bus Eireann had for years operated auxiliary departures on the route due to excessive demand - this frankly formalised that.

    Attacking Bus Eireann for taking a commercial decision to operate a service that another operator would have snapped up in all likelihood really is daft.

    Why not instead focus on IE on the poor management of the services that they have had from the outset - poor marketing, appalling scheduling, lack of creativity and general disinterest.

    A timetable that does not (as a prime objective) offer connectivity at Limerick Junction to Cork and Waterford with minimal connecting times off the majority of services is frankly unforgivable.

    For this service to have any hope (in my view) it needs to be a Galway-Waterford service with tight connections at Limerick Junction. To do that the crossover that was inexplicably removed east of Limerick Junction needs to be reinstated.

    I'd suggest focussing on what IE is doing wrong is the best way forward.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    So basically the doubling up on journeys by the different arms of CIE will have to stop, that means closing the WRC as well as the train from Gorey or even Greystones to Wexford and also a radical cutting back on the Cork route for Irish Rail as well as many Dublin Bus routes being cut or curtailed as they serve all the same places as the dart and commuter rail.
    mightn't go that far foggy but I'm on record as saying that's what should happen on Ballybrophy-Limerick for example, where the bustitution services have to hold back because they are timetabled to slower and longer rail paths. If a rail route can't manage 70mph over a good chunk of its route, isn't carrying 36TEU freight trains, isn't managing 200+ people on peak services, isn't connecting communities with poor road options its rationale is weakened.

    Unlike some on here and what I was accused about by lxflyer, I try to look at the facts on the ground as I have them, and what I see in the Irish marketplace is lots of interest in express services by private operators but Irish Rail being obliged to bring packed 100mph services to a halt to serve villages.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Please note the name change and the split of posts.

    Please generally keep on the topic as the thread title -- given the topics are interlinked some overlap is expected, but try to keep away from posting mostly about the other thread topic.

    - moderator


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I think I understand why you split this but could you correct the title to Athenry to Limerick section? (or even better , Athenry to Ennis)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think Galway to Limerick is appropriate - that's the operational section over which the trains are running.

    It's worthwhile considering the line as a whole from Galway to Limerick Junction and onwards to Waterford.

    The point I would suggest is to discuss what could be done with the current railway, and keep it separate from the greenway -v- railway debate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,264 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Personally I think that Ennis - Athenry is a better description. Prior to the WRC reopening Limerick - Ennis was running and so were services between Athenry - Galway. Once everyone accepts this in the debate, we've no problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Personally I think that Ennis - Athenry is a better description. Prior to the WRC reopening Limerick - Ennis was running and so were services between Athenry - Galway. Once everyone accepts this in the debate, we've no problem.

    I don't dispute that - but I think it is more relevant to discuss the line as a whole. Trains are not simply running from Athenry to Ennis!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,264 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I don't dispute that - but I think it is more relevant to discuss the line as a whole. Trains are not simply running from Athenry to Ennis!

    Absolutely no problem with that as long as posters respect the fact that either end of the line existed already.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    The title is fine as Galway to Limerick -- discussion may include a bit about connections to onward services or services which partly use other lines. You're even welcome to remind people what bits of the railway was there before X time or X project.

    Regardless this thread is mainly about the operational railway and services running on it.

    For now: On topic please!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    We were discussing the limited capacity for transporting cycling tourists and their bikes by train on the other WRC thread and this newspaper article appeared on a Google search - looks recent !!! ;)

    http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2887:limited-space-for-bikes-on-trains-hits-tourism&catid=42:transport&Itemid=60

    Could this be a life-line for the under utilised Athenry - Ennis stretch of the WRC ? To cater for cycling tourists from both home and abroad, perhaps consideration should be given to initiating a daily direct train throughout the tourist season from Dublin or Rosslare with already suitable rolling stock or trains modified to carry 50/50 split of passengers and bikes ?

    The present situation is that the 22K trains can only carry 3 bikes per 3 car train and this is wholly inadequate to support cycling in the West generally.

    Certainly, judging from the passenger numbers feedback, nobody has to stand on this section of the line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    We were discussing the limited capacity for transporting cycling tourists and their bikes by train on the other WRC thread and this newspaper article appeared on a Google search - looks recent !!! ;)

    http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2887:limited-space-for-bikes-on-trains-hits-tourism&catid=42:transport&Itemid=60

    Could this be a life-line for the under utilised Athenry - Ennis stretch of the WRC ? To cater for cycling tourists from both home and abroad, perhaps consideration should be given to initiating a daily direct train throughout the tourist season from Dublin or Rosslare with already suitable rolling stock or trains modified to carry 50/50 split of passengers and bikes ?

    The present situation is that the 22K trains can only carry 3 bikes per 3 car train and this is wholly inadequate to support cycling in the West generally.

    Certainly, judging from the passenger numbers feedback, nobody has to stand on this section of the line.

    Has anyone ever paid the €6 or €12 and brought their bike on the WRC train? Are there numbers for the number of bikes carried on this stretch of line?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Has anyone ever paid the €6 or €12 and brought their bike on the WRC train? Are there numbers for the number of bikes carried on this stretch of line?

    Yes, from Galway to Limerick and back. The ticket machines in Galway didnt do bikes so I had to buy the ticket for that in Limerick after the fact.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Yes, from Galway to Limerick and back. The ticket machines in Galway didnt do bikes so I had to buy the ticket for that in Limerick after the fact.
    ok so that is one cyclist on one train, did you have any issue with accommodation for the bike? or was there 19 other cyclists waiting to board beside you?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    ok so that is one cyclist on one train, did you have any issue with accommodation for the bike? or was there 19 other cyclists waiting to board beside you?

    On that occasion it was 2 passengers on one train, both with bikes. Saturday morning service. I can't remember the detail of the bike storage. But given the absence of other passenger demand on that service at that time of day, I think it would be foolish to turn away 20 cyclists simply because you can't be bothered designing your rolling stock properly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    convertible accommodation isn't necessarily practical though, as should one mode be occupying that part of the train, it may not be possible to accommodate the other. Separate space is the way, but how much do you provide? 20 spaces would be overkill 99% of the time I feel.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    corktina wrote: »
    convertible accommodation isn't necessarily practical though, as should one mode be occupying that part of the train, it may not be possible to accommodate the other. Separate space is the way, but how much do you provide? 20 spaces would be overkill 99% of the time I feel.

    In terms of practicality all we are talking about is "tip up" seats like you have in the cinema. Its not rocket science.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    In terms of practicality all we are talking about is "tip up" seats like you have in the cinema. Its not rocket science.

    you miss the point. What if someone is sitting in that seat when a cyclist wants to board?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corktina wrote: »
    you miss the point. What if someone is sitting in that seat when a cyclist wants to board?

    Also what cost will discommoding at least 4 passengers just for 2-3 bikes incur?

    Other train companies in other countries are able to provide whole or half carriages of space for things like bikes or backpackers even when these "visiting tourists" are only there seasonally but the big difference between them and us is the numbers. would swiss railways have provided space for skis and backpackers luggage for years if there were only a small number of such visitors each year?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Also what cost will discommoding at least 4 passengers just for 2-3 bikes incur?

    Other train companies in other countries are able to provide whole or half carriages of space for things like bikes or backpackers even when these "visiting tourists" are only there seasonally but the big difference between them and us is the numbers. would swiss railways have provided space for skis and backpackers luggage for years if there were only a small number of such visitors each year?

    So we should not provide enhanced services on the basis that this might, on occasion, discommode people who might not always be there?

    You could extend the same argument to priority seats for the elderly or disabled or to wheel chair space, or space for baby buggies.

    Chicken and egg. Would the Swiss have those numbers of those visitors if, like us, they had abjectly failed to provide services for them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    yep, what if a passenger boards, all the normal seats are taken ...what will he think of a situation where usable seats are tipped-up so that a bike can be accommodated and he has to stand. There's a cost here in lost business when he won't use the train again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    So we should not provide enhanced services on the basis that this might, on occasion, discommode people who might not always be there?

    You could extend the same argument to priority seats for the elderly or disabled or to wheel chair space, or space for baby buggies.

    Chicken and egg. Would the Swiss have those numbers of those visitors if, like us, they had abjectly failed to provide services for them?

    but if the accommodation isn't there and has to be provided, who will pay the real cost of that provision and if the burden falls on the Railway, what if it pushes the line over the edge inot bankruptcy?


    buggies and wheelchairs are a differnet matter, they are a necessity to their users, bikes are not


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    corktina wrote: »
    yep, what if a passenger boards, all the normal seats are taken ...what will he think of a situation where usable seats are tipped-up so that a bike can be accommodated and he has to stand. There's a cost here in lost business when he won't use the train again.

    You are trying to think of this as an intercity service when it isn't. The peak passenger demand is Athenry-Galway and Ennis-Limerick. These are the only sections where that level of demand for seats is likely to arise and in other countries it would be considered little hardship to stand for the time involved.

    In any case who said that level of bicycle carriage should be available at peak travel hours? You are arguably cutting your nose off to spite your face. You would rather have empty seats on off-peak services rather than accept that peak hour commuting conditions are not always ideal on any well subscribed public transport system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    no I'd rather have an old fashioned guards van for bikes....but the stock we have is the stock we shall have for decades.....

    the train does not need to be full...there might be just one passenger sitting in the tip up seats who refuses to move...what then? (you know this might happen, people are like that!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    So we should not provide enhanced services on the basis that this might, on occasion, discommode people who might not always be there?
    So to be clear we should turf people out of their seats whenever a cyclist wants to take the train?

    There is no happy medium to be had here on the WRC as there is firstly no cash available for retrofitting ICR's with "special seats for cyclists as these sets would then be non standard and as such going completly against the apparrent current IR policy of standardised trains.

    second there is no real benefit in possibly discommoding so many passengers just to accommodate a few cyclists who have the option of taking the bus which is faster.
    You could extend the same argument to priority seats for the elderly or disabled or to wheel chair space, or space for baby buggies.
    Wheelchair spaces are possibly a legal obligation and seats with priority for the elderly etc are not discommoding anyone as there is no obligation on any passenger to give up theri seat for anyone!
    Chicken and egg. Would the Swiss have those numbers of those visitors if, like us, they had abjectly failed to provide services for them?
    Would they have a railway if they had so many empty luggage/bike/ski spaces but the visitors had not materialised?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    having seen this thread split recently, I feel it should be further split and this discussion be hived off as it applies to all train services, not just the WRC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    To provide just 3 spaces for bikes re: 22ks is really a back covering exercise by Irish Rail - Oh Yes ! we do carry bikes !

    Look at it from a practical point of view - a cyclist ex-Dublin wants to spend a weekend cycling in North Clare starting off in Lehinch. Cycles up to Heuston and yes ok., there is an available bike space on the train and off he/she goes.

    Change at Athenry for Ennis, maybe there is a space or maybe not. Anyway assume there is and off he/she goes.

    Good stuff - pedals up around Black Head and the Burren over the next day or so, and decides to get the train back from Ardrahan to Athenry - may be there's a space, maybe not - same story at Athenry for Dublin ?

    Or have I got it wrong, please enlighten me if I have ? No, I'm not booking, I want to travel on spec. It's not a big ask, perfectly feasible years ago with the Guards van, so how about removing a few seats to create similar cargo space ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I cannot see there ever being a problem bringing a bike on the WRC - they are operated by 2800s with plenty of room.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I cannot see there ever being a problem bringing a bike on the WRC - they are operated by 2800s with plenty of room.

    Well that's good news, I stand corrected on that one - how many bikes can they carry ?

    How about the journey back from Athenry to Dublin ? Is there not an inherent level of uncertainty in that the limited number of bike spaces could be already taken up - enough to put an intending cyclist off starting out on the journey in the first place ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    corktina wrote: »
    the line will never compete with a 1 hour 21 min coach...thats around 40 minutes quicker....even with rocket propulsion they couldn't match that on a twisty meandering route with a reversal thrown in.

    That bus service simply doesn't exist. I've travelled on both the X51 and the Citylink service (the latter is a bit more comfortable) regularly enough and neither are usually close to 1 hr 20. When you've been told you'll be there in 1 hr 20, to be regularly at least 10 mins later than that, and often more like 20 mins later, it's very very annoying. Especially when it's not usually just down to traffic. The timetables are just marketing, not actual timetabling.

    I've only occasionally used the railway service when the times suited and when travelling with family members with kids. It's slower than it needs to be (a lot of sitting around waiting in stations). There shouldn't be any stops between Ennis and Galway except Gort.

    And in this day and age, yes, it is a serious inconvenience not being able to book online. It's a pain that you can't buy Citylink bus ticket either after the bus has left Cork.

    The price isn't great but would be OK if it was quicker and you could book online.

    The service isn't too badly run against what it's set out to be, only complaint really is how grim Galway station is, even though Limerick isn't exactly bright and modern inside. Ridiculous that there can't be two platforms inside the station proper either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i'm looking forward to the first attempt at not stopping at Athenry Zoney.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Zoney wrote: »
    only complaint really is how grim Galway station is, even though Limerick isn't exactly bright and modern inside. Ridiculous that there can't be two platforms inside the station proper either.
    There was a grand plan to redevelop the station and add a platform but it wasn't drawn up till the last gasp of the property boom so that's that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭wonder88


    Maybe the reduction of the price of ticket from Oranmore to Galway will attract more passangers. If deals on tickets could be introduced the Galway/Limerick service might yet become viable.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    wonder88 wrote: »
    Maybe the reduction of the price of ticket from Oranmore to Galway will attract more passangers. If deals on tickets could be introduced the Galway/Limerick service might yet become viable.

    It will never be commercially viable - so we have to be careful when we use such words. Half the ticket prices and double the number of passengers (to average of 16 per train) results in same revenue and overheads and costs remain the same. Most public transport services are not viable commercially and lose money and are subvented; there is nothing wrong with that, some things need to be funded from the state, the point that needs to be looked at with any service is when does the subvention cost per passenger become unsustainable and unjustified. We have probably reached this stage now on the WRC. In any event, if it can be proven that a private operator can offer a quicker and cheaper alternative - which the xpress bus services between galway and limerick seem to be doing, how can it be justified to subvent one service even further in order to allow it to compete with a private service - someone in the private bus companies would cry foul. This is the dilemna of private versus public in any transport solution. If the subvention on the WRC from Ennis to Athenry (providing the link between galway/Limerick) was re-directed to the rural bus schemes - would that have the greater benefit for the greater number. We do need subvention on rural transport in the west, to make parts of our community socially inclusive, but I am not convinced that subventing a slow and inefficient rail line that can no longer compete with the xpress bus services is the right choice and not sure it really adds to any kind of social inclusion. We need to face facts, phase one of the Western Rail corridor has failed, it was an interesting and costly experiment, but it has failed. Time to move on.

    oh and BTW, oranmore is on the main Dublin - Galway line - so if the promotion results in more people using the short hop commuter service into Galway on this line, it is not an issue of more people using the WRC, although no doubt some spin will be made of it by WOT!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Yes it has failed but the one good thing that will come from it is that it won't happen again (not without heads rolling anyway)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,812 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    westtip wrote: »
    It will never be commercially viable - so we have to be careful when we use such words. Half the ticket prices and double the number of passengers (to average of 16 per train) results in same revenue and overheads and costs remain the same. Most public transport services are not viable commercially and lose money and are subvented; there is nothing wrong with that, some things need to be funded from the state, the point that needs to be looked at with any service is when does the subvention cost per passenger become unsustainable and unjustified. We have probably reached this stage now on the WRC. In any event, if it can be proven that a private operator can offer a quicker and cheaper alternative - which the xpress bus services between galway and limerick seem to be doing, how can it be justified to subvent one service even further in order to allow it to compete with a private service - someone in the private bus companies would cry foul. This is the dilemna of private versus public in any transport solution. If the subvention on the WRC from Ennis to Athenry (providing the link between galway/Limerick) was re-directed to the rural bus schemes - would that have the greater benefit for the greater number. We do need subvention on rural transport in the west, to make parts of our community socially inclusive, but I am not convinced that subventing a slow and inefficient rail line that can no longer compete with the xpress bus services is the right choice and not sure it really adds to any kind of social inclusion. We need to face facts, phase one of the Western Rail corridor has failed, it was an interesting and costly experiment, but it has failed. Time to move on.

    oh and BTW, oranmore is on the main Dublin - Galway line - so if the promotion results in more people using the short hop commuter service into Galway on this line, it is not an issue of more people using the WRC, although no doubt some spin will be made of it by WOT!

    While I accept your points about subvention, those private bus services are only faster than the train because the government spent hundreds of millions of euro building the M18. That in it's self is a form of subvention. If a similar amount of money was invested in rail, Limerick to Galway would be double track and on a new more direct alignment with provision made for future electrification. And it would certainly be faster and more popular than any road connection between the two cities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Has anyone any information on how loadings are doing out of Oranmore?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    westtip wrote: »
    if it can be proven that a private operator can offer a quicker and cheaper alternative - which the xpress bus services between galway and limerick seem to be doing, how can it be justified to subvent one service even further in order to allow it to compete with a private service - someone in the private bus companies would cry foul.
    i'm sorry but tough s//t on them, let them cry foul, its not the job of the government to help private operators by not subsidizing other forms of transport such as the WRC for example, i agree with most of your point but i can't and don't care if the private operators get upset about us subsidizing the railway, galway limerick as a rail route concept is viable but not on the old badly built alinement that much of it is on, but its not going to be rebuilt on a new one now for definite, limerick ennis and galway athenry are doing okay i believe, could ennis athenry destroy the good work done for limerick ennis i wonder? i hope to jesus not, ideally the stations on ennis athenry apart from gort maybe shouldn't have been built but they are now and we are where we are, what is for sure is that limerick waterford which has more users will be gone (along with others i fear) just to keep this political stunt open

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you are of course quite right EotR.
    The money spent on re-opening a defective route was a waste and I would have preferred to have seen twice as much or more spent on a better route.
    It will be a crying shame if eventually the plug is pulled on this line now if it affects The southern operation that was suceeding pre-reopening.

    I agree that the intermediate stations should not have been built and a simple direct chord at Athenry would have been a good idea, but then that would not fit in with certain interested parties plan for a whole WRC re-opening all the way to Sligo


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    corktina wrote: »
    you are of course quite right EotR.
    The money spent on re-opening a defective route was a waste and I would have preferred to have seen twice as much or more spent on a better route.
    It will be a crying shame if eventually the plug is pulled on this line now if it affects The southern operation that was suceeding pre-reopening.

    I agree that the intermediate stations should not have been built and a simple direct chord at Athenry would have been a good idea, but then that would not fit in with certain interested parties plan for a whole WRC re-opening all the way to Sligo

    Hopefully any further decisions on railways will be made in the light of proper planning and not on the basis of the views of a few well-connected steam-train enthusiasts.
    I'd say that closure is not a million miles away when it comes to this section though. If the threats to the free travel for pensioners come to anything, that may leave some trains running empty on this route, which can't be justified.
    A line all the way to Sligo will never happen, unless some global seismic event delivers us tens of billions of euro to get us out of the hole we're in, and that such a miraculous event coincides with having Bertie Ahern and the Greens back in power, with Brian Cowen back in Finance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    you are of course quite right EotR.
    The money spent on re-opening a defective route was a waste and I would have preferred to have seen twice as much or more spent on a better route.
    It will be a crying shame if eventually the plug is pulled on this line now if it affects The southern operation that was suceeding pre-reopening.

    I agree that the intermediate stations should not have been built and a simple direct chord at Athenry would have been a good idea, but then that would not fit in with certain interested parties plan for a whole WRC re-opening all the way to Sligo
    and that my friends is the sad reality of the shambles that is the rebuilt ennis athenry section, imagine the train leaving limerick stopping at ennis athenry galway, 3 stops and then later on add oranmore for the galway main line, and then see if theirs a good case for gort, the potential was there for this line had it been done right and now it has been squandered, a sad sad shame, hopefully we can learn from this and hopefully this won't effect the chances for the navon line (which should have been opened years ago but how and ever)

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    The intermediate stations should be put on use it or lose it protection, Either buy 100 annual tickets or the train stops twice a day.

    Of course such tickets should possibly be reduced in price to inflate demand.

    Is there online booking and online seat reservations yet?

    If Irish Rail can do Dublin - Cork for €10 why not Limerick - Galway have a €5 promotional fare.

    Why not let Irish rail operate the infrastructure but a different operator run the service, market the line, brand the line etc.

    A cross country lines brand covering Galway, Limerick, Kerry, Waterford, Nenagh and dare I say Wexford.

    A lot of innovative thinking is required but I don't think any politician wants to touch this with a bargepole.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,206 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    relaxed wrote: »
    The intermediate stations should be put on use it or lose it protection, Either buy 100 annual tickets or the train stops twice a day.

    they spent a lot of money on those stations - given that the line is already slow, how much time would be saved by not stopping at them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you think we should still stop at them just so we can say the money wasn't wasted building them?


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