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Western Rail Corridor (Galway-Limerick section)
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Mullingar to Athlone should be reopened and have a mullingar to galway service
The reason the L shaped route Tuam Galway or ennis galway have issues is the stop at athenry and time it takes
If it is an efficient service and the schedules dovetail then it shouldn't be an issue.
Assuming on a tuam line is not direct to galway and either goes to ennis and you board a galway commuter line
Sure students will seek a cheaper option but if there is a discounted student weekly or monthly ticket - or 10 journey tickets which make it competitive then people will use it.
Tourists many see rail travel as a way to see the country - and many i the west dont want to sit on a cramped bus or hire a car
Another type of tourist is the cycle tourist and they may wish to say bring bikes on the train and this is a facility often forgotten by irish rail
I think if i was doing business in galway city it would be nicer to get a train say from ennis, limerick or waterford to glaway city centre and have time on board to email etc. than drive.
Motorways are fine where appropriate, but not everyone has a car or wants to use one and cars do have a larger carbon footprint than the same number of people travelling by train.0 -
Mullingar to Athlone should be reopened and have a mullingar to galway service
The reason the L shaped route Tuam Galway or ennis galway have issues is the stop at athenry and time it takes
If it is an efficient service and the schedules dovetail then it shouldn't be an issue.
Assuming on a tuam line is not direct to galway and either goes to ennis and you board a galway commuter line
Sure students will seek a cheaper option but if there is a discounted student weekly or monthly ticket - or 10 journey tickets which make it competitive then people will use it.
Tourists many see rail travel as a way to see the country - and many i the west dont want to sit on a cramped bus or hire a car
Another type of tourist is the cycle tourist and they may wish to say bring bikes on the train and this is a facility often forgotten by irish rail
I think if i was doing business in galway city it would be nicer to get a train say from ennis, limerick or waterford to glaway city centre and have time on board to email etc. than drive.
Motorways are fine where appropriate, but not everyone has a car or wants to use one and cars do have a larger carbon footprint than the same number of people travelling by train.
It's not going to happen though, as can be seen from recent statements coming from government. They just don't have the money for one thing, and even if they had, they would be crucified if they threw away a billion euro in a lightly-populated area just because a very small number of people in the west like to take an occasional ride on a train.
There is also the issue of the existing network; it needs investment (see link). Finding that investment won't be easy, and lack of resources will undoubtedly lead to further closures. Nenagh seems set to be one loser, but the Ennis-Athenry line surely can't survive at the current level of usage either. It needs at least ten times the current usage to make it cover just 50% of operating costs; is that likely to happen? I doubt it.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/deferring-upgrading-works-could-be-costly-gamble-29529697.html0 -
Motorways are fine where appropriate, but not everyone has a car or wants to use one and cars do have a larger carbon footprint than the same number of people travelling by train.
trains on the WRC have a massively bigger carbon footprint than cars....a whole train for two carloads of people...or one if you use a people carrier...0 -
It's not going to happen though, as can be seen from recent statements coming from government. They just don't have the money for one thing, and even if they had, they would be crucified if they threw away a billion euro in a lightly-populated area just because a very small number of people in the west like to take an occasional ride on a train.
There is also the issue of the existing network; it needs investment (see link). Finding that investment won't be easy, and lack of resources will undoubtedly lead to further closures. Nenagh seems set to be one loser, but the Ennis-Athenry line surely can't survive at the current level of usage either. It needs at least ten times the current usage to make it cover just 50% of operating costs; is that likely to happen? I doubt it.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/deferring-upgrading-works-could-be-costly-gamble-29529697.html
that is simply down to Irish Rail Pricing Policy. They need to be compete with bus and their price should reflect that. If and thats a big If they did the numbers would grow.
WRC is a failure for its pricing policy and not able to book online.
Its a failure with the semi state bodies in general, increase prices and expect same numbers to use it. There is supposed to be a fare increase in the CIE group for 2014 or least they will try and even less people to use it. it defeats the purpose of setting up infrastructure be rail or bus.
people bash ryanair for various reasons. but their model should be adopted to irish rail. I know they do decent online fare to dublin from galway but as i just said its not available for the WRC. if they got seat they should change their price to make poeopl take those seats.
its would take a miracle for this type of thinking to happen i know but until then lets everyone vote FF again for the craic.0 -
How can it be priced any better? it is losing 3 million a year on running costs, they could save most of this by running only one train a week to keep the line open and in use, if they half the ticket prices they will lose twice as much because there are not enough people in the west that want or need to use this service!that is simply down to Irish Rail Pricing Policy. They need to be compete with bus and their price should reflect that. If and thats a big If they did the numbers would grow.
WRC is a failure for its pricing policy and not able to book online.
Its a failure with the semi state bodies in general, increase prices and expect same numbers to use it. There is supposed to be a fare increase in the CIE group for 2014 or least they will try and even less people to use it. it defeats the purpose of setting up infrastructure be rail or bus.
people bash ryanair for various reasons. but their model should be adopted to irish rail. I know they do decent online fare to dublin from galway but as i just said its not available for the WRC. if they got seat they should change their price to make poeopl take those seats.
its would take a miracle for this type of thinking to happen i know but until then lets everyone vote FF again for the craic.0 -
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How can it be priced any better? it is losing 3 million a year on running costs, they could save most of this by running only one train a week to keep the line open and in use, if they half the ticket prices they will lose twice as much because there are not enough people in the west that want or need to use this service!
losing money cause the trains are running empty. i have used this service several times and always empty. CIE just needs to reduce costs at all levels and be realistic with prices reward those who book online get those trains stuffed. and people would use it if it was cheaper than bus. Yes proberly not gonna happen like i've said but lack of online fares is being a drawback.
no more than leo taking away the tolls for truck drivers for a trial this should be done and if it still fails then by all means close the dam thing.0 -
yes but you could say the same for every line in the country. What is so special about this line that it should get preferential treatment? If they reduced prices and it failed (which it would imo) then what effect would that have on the rest of the system that has to carry that loss? One line already closed to provide resources for the WRC (a line BETTER patronised too)...are more to be sacrificed for the WRC?0
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One of the problems is that for most people to get the train they will have to drive a few miles or several miles to the station while they can get on the bus in the local village/town. when in the car driving to the station with the family most do the maths and figure they may as well drive as it is much faster and very much cheaper than even the family tickets!losing money cause the trains are running empty. i have used this service several times and always empty. CIE just needs to reduce costs at all levels and be realistic with prices reward those who book online get those trains stuffed. and people would use it if it was cheaper than bus. Yes proberly not gonna happen like i've said but lack of online fares is being a drawback.
no more than leo taking away the tolls for truck drivers for a trial this should be done and if it still fails then by all means close the dam thing.
There are not enough passengers or potential passengers in the path of that old railway line to ever fill a train unless they were all on an outing together.0 -
yes but you could say the same for every line in the country. What is so special about this line that it should get preferential treatment? If they reduced prices and it failed (which it would imo) then what effect would that have on the rest of the system that has to carry that loss? One line already closed to provide resources for the WRC (a line BETTER patronised too)...are more to be sacrificed for the WRC?
with that line of thought shut down all CIE operations that are loss making then.0 -
No only the ones that will never have enough passengers to make the service viable. the best this line has been doing is to average one less passenger per train than last year so it would be cheaper to send those 7-8 passengers in their own personal taxis than run the service!with that line of thought shut down all CIE operations that are loss making then.
What other lines are running with so few passengers?0 -
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the lines a turkey, the dogs in the street know that....if you halved the fares and doubled the passengers, it would still lose €3 million pa and fares would still cover only 5% of the costs.
The coach is already cheaper and faster by far so no one will switch from that (you don't imagine the Coach companies wouldn't slash THEIR fares in response do you?)so where will these passengers come from?0 -
if you don't believe cost is a deciding issue in people to use it then ...........................0
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the reason no one uses it is because there are very few people en route to use it.0
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with that line of thought shut down all CIE operations that are loss making then.
Afaik most IE operations are loss making. The key difference between say the Cork Commuter services and the WRC is that the former is well utilised whilst the latter isn't.
I'm all for subsidised railways so long as they serve some purpose, but its clear that Ennis -Athenry has little public benefit. WOT said if they build it then the people would come to use it, they haven't. So shut it down, or scale back services dramatically, and write off the €100m+ it cost to re-open the line as another Celtic Tiger folly.0 -
losing money cause the trains are running empty. i have used this service several times and always empty. CIE just needs to reduce costs at all levels and be realistic with prices reward those who book online get those trains stuffed. and people would use it if it was cheaper than bus. Yes proberly not gonna happen like i've said but lack of online fares is being a drawback.
no more than leo taking away the tolls for truck drivers for a trial this should be done and if it still fails then by all means close the dam thing.
Certainly no harm in trying a few long shots, but at an average eight passengers per train, and with an undefined number of those paid for from the public purse, this line looks to just be too far off viability to survive.
The best that a good marketing campaign and a better online presence might do would be to double or treble passenger numbers, and that amount of growth could best be described as unprecedented. But if this growth was achieved by lowering fares, the problem wouldn't have changed much.
The mistake that was made was in government listening to wishful economics from a well-connected lobby group. They built a line in the wrong place, simply because the alignment was there, and nobody wanted to use it.
No amount of moving the deckchairs around will change the fact that the ship is holed below the waterline.0 -
the line will never compete with a 1 hour 21 min coach...thats around 40 minutes quicker....even with rocket propulsion they couldn't match that on a twisty meandering route with a reversal thrown in.0
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Certainly no harm in trying a few long shots, but at an average eight passengers per train, and with an undefined number of those paid for from the public purse, this line looks to just be too far off viability to survive.
The best that a good marketing campaign and a better online presence might do would be to double or treble passenger numbers, and that amount of growth could best be described as unprecedented. But if this growth was achieved by lowering fares, the problem wouldn't have changed much.
The mistake that was made was in government listening to wishful economics from a well-connected lobby group. They built a line in the wrong place, simply because the alignment was there, and nobody wanted to use it.
No amount of moving the deckchairs around will change the fact that the ship is holed below the waterline.
at least someone read my posts and understands what i said. Yes the previous goverment had made lots of a mistakes and i'm sure they will be back in again to make some more. but the line is built now and substantial money thrown at it, so they won't close it any time in the near future. those previous posters can do all the bashing shouting and whatever agenda they have to close it down all they want.
I was just posting a fresh approach to see if they change the drop in numbers. Leo is doing a deal for truck drivers and would be interested to see the result of his experiment. And they same should be done for the WRC and there are people there along that line and those that would use that line from the dublin galway route that want to go to limerick etc so don't give me that, people are there but the prices are stupid and no online fares.
such negative crap being posted it rather unreal. no doubt they are the minions to revive the previous administration.0 -
it's not a fresh appraoch, it's the same old same old. If anything the fares should be increased, which wouldn't make much difference as most the passengers travewl free anyway.0
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I'm not so sure that they won't close it. I listened to what Minister Kelly said a few weeks back about transparency in spending on public transport, and the need to base all decisions from now on on actual facts and figures. It is my belief that in the case of a reshuffle of Juniors to take account of the abortion fallout -- fairly likely in the medium term -- Kelly might be a better fit in tourism given his background in Failte Ireland. Any new incumbent will almost certainly close the Nenagh line and would then have to look seriously at Ennis Athenry. At the very least, they may well scale back the service on it to take account of usage; if a lesser number of trains attracted the same customer base, i.e. if a percentage of users aren't too bothered when the trains run, that would be an improvement of sorts.but the line is built now and substantial money thrown at it, so they won't close it any time in the near future. those previous posters can do all the bashing shouting and whatever agenda they have to close it down all they want.
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Whatever happens, I think it is now very clear that the notion of extending the western rail corridor north of Athenry is a dead duck. As a taxpayer, I'm not too upset about that, to be honest.
Another possible option would be to privatise the Limerick to Galway route, including the commuter routes into Limerick and Galway, but I'm not sure if the brothers are ready for that. A private company with a decent subsidy could probably do the business cheaper though, with a net saving to the state.0 -
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if you don't believe cost is a deciding issue in people to use it then ...........................
Reducing ticket prices to the same as the bus still won't fix the problem that:
1) The bus is 40 minutes faster for the same journey
2) The train stations tend to be far outside population centers and need to be driven too, while in most cases the bus serves town centers.
Even if the price was the same as the bus, no one is going to sit in a train for an extra 40 minutes!0 -
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3, the bus companies would reduce their prices if they were losing passengers0
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at least someone read my posts and understands what i said. Yes the previous goverment had made lots of a mistakes and i'm sure they will be back in again to make some more. but the line is built now and substantial money thrown at it, so they won't close it any time in the near future. those previous posters can do all the bashing shouting and whatever agenda they have to close it down all they want.
In the great scheme of things, the €100m+ it cost to re-open it is small beer. Its the whopper of the yearly subvention - minimum €3m and probably a lot more given how dismal PAX has been - is what will torpedo the Ennis - Athenry section eventually.
Given the CIE group will almost certainly have its subvention cut year on year for the next few years minimum eventually the thorny issue of reducing WRC services will happen. It would be nonsensical for IE to axe services on lines which are actually used by people to keep the Fresh Air Express operating.
OH btw no agenda here, just an academic interest in planning and infrastructure provision.I was just posting a fresh approach to see if they change the drop in numbers. Leo is doing a deal for truck drivers and would be interested to see the result of his experiment. And they same should be done for the WRC and there are people there along that line and those that would use that line from the dublin galway route that want to go to limerick etc so don't give me that, people are there but the prices are stupid and no online fares.
There's nothing fresh about your approach, you just want to throw more good money after bad. Fwiw I'd agree that online booking should be extended, but I seriously doubt either that or fare reductions will be the magical panacea you think it might be to cure the inherent flaws present in the WRC.
Personally I'd be of the opinion that the WRC should be merged with Limerick - Limerick Jtn - Waterford to form a single cross country service with the closure of the pointless Co. Galway/Clare village stops. Even then would it be competitive with the X51 or Limerick - Waterford bus? hard to say but its probably got more chance of attracting pax then the current set of the Munster & Connacht provincial lines do currently.0 -
The only line bleeding more red ink than the WRC is the one which runs through Minister Kelly's political heartland. If he is serious about putting the national interest first, he should announce its closure "pour encourager les autres" and to stop the depressing sight of IE spending money on bustitutions for maintenance possessions on a line surely doomed to South Wexford-style "preservation".
I'm not actually sold on closing Ennis-Athenry as is but I think the rationale for permitting the 51X was deeply suspect on the part of the NTA when Citylink are also operating 5 express runs per direction per day. The stops at Ardrahan and Craughwell should be reduced immediately the way Woodlawn and Attymon were with the community notified that if things don't improve within 2 months the stations will be closed outright. At the same time NTA should announce a licence review with a view to capacity management in a way they seem to be leaning towards on the Mullingar-Dublin corridor.
Laviski - your posts have ranged from "sell the service even further below cost", "if we can't have it because of losses nobody can have it", "sure ye're all Fianna Failers for disagreeing with me". How constructive a discussion do you think you're going to get from that?0 -
dowlingm you have ranted on and on about the X51 - the fact that the buses are operating every hour and have done so for some time suggests there is a market for it. Indeed any time I've used it, the loads were quite healthy.
If you're seriously suggesting that if Bus Eireann had not entered the market that Citylink or someone else would not have applied for a similar service, then I think you are living on a different planet.
The amount of extra services Bus Eireann had to add in years gone by prior to the X51's birth (effectively many route 51 buses were doubled up) to deal with the loads is testimony to the demand.
The bus service would be there regardless - it just happens to be Bus Eireann that operates it.
That element of your argument is ludicrous.
The difference between this route and Mullingar is that the bus services are not subsidised on this route which clearly they are with route 115.0 -
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3, the bus companies would reduce their prices if they were losing passengers
That is a very good point. Bus services will always be cheaper to run then rail services *. So therefore bus companies will always be able to offer lower ticket prices then rail. They certainly wouldn't just stand still if Irish Rail halved their ticket prices.
There might also be serious questions asked in court/eu level if the government were seen to subsidise one publicly owned service to compete against a profitable private service. Sure the WRC is already heavily subsidised, but subsidising it so much that ticket prices match the private coach operator might raise red flags at EU level.
In order for rail to compete with bus services it ideally needs to be faster then the coach service or at least match it with greater reliability (no traffic) in order to justify higher ticket prices which are necessary to pay for the higher running costs.
Also ideally rail needs a large number of people living with walking/cycling distance of the station.
The WRC has non of these and it never will and that is why it should have never been built on it's current alignment.
* Yes, coach services benefit from infrastructure already paid for by cars, but that is just the reality that rail has to deal with.0 -
lxflyer - I noted that Citylink have a similar 1h20m. Thanks for playing though. 106m Euro dropped on a new alignment and a subsidiary of CIE opens a service 5 months later which blows an even bigger hole in the rationale for it? That might go down well at the Progressive Democrat Alumni Association, watching state companies (technically the same company!) cut its/their own throat but it doesn't sit well with me.
My point is that this free for all business is going to have to stop. Capacity management is going to be the order of the day and locophiles and busphiles are going to have to get used to that. The alternative is both state and private operators going to the wall after round after round of price wars.0 -
So basically the doubling up on journeys by the different arms of CIE will have to stop, that means closing the WRC as well as the train from Gorey or even Greystones to Wexford and also a radical cutting back on the Cork route for Irish Rail as well as many Dublin Bus routes being cut or curtailed as they serve all the same places as the dart and commuter rail.lxflyer - I noted that Citylink have a similar 1h20m. Thanks for playing though. 106m Euro dropped on a new alignment and a subsidiary of CIE opens a service 5 months later which blows an even bigger hole in the rationale for it? That might go down well at the Progressive Democrat Alumni Association, watching state companies (technically the same company!) cut its/their own throat but it doesn't sit well with me.
My point is that this free for all business is going to have to stop. Capacity management is going to be the order of the day and locophiles and busphiles are going to have to get used to that. The alternative is both state and private operators going to the wall after round after round of price wars.0 -
lxflyer - I noted that Citylink have a similar 1h20m. Thanks for playing though. 106m Euro dropped on a new alignment and a subsidiary of CIE opens a service 5 months later which blows an even bigger hole in the rationale for it? That might go down well at the Progressive Democrat Alumni Association, watching state companies (technically the same company!) cut its/their own throat but it doesn't sit well with me.
My point is that this free for all business is going to have to stop. Capacity management is going to be the order of the day and locophiles and busphiles are going to have to get used to that. The alternative is both state and private operators going to the wall after round after round of price wars.
I'm sorry, but it is NOT a free for all.
The NTA are managing the commercial bus services very closely. I appreciate bus and coaches are not really your thing, but if you had bothered to read the NTA guidelines on private commercial licensing you would see that that there reasonably clear rules that mean no two commercial operators can operate services on the same route within 30 minutes of one another.
By your logic, consumers should be deprived of the coach service on the route. Well I'm sorry - that is not how it should work.
You clearly have never used the bus services on the route - the demand exists for it.
If you're seriously suggesting that because some politicians forced the re-opening of the WRC (let's be honest - that's what did happen), Bus Eireann or indeed anyone else shouldn't provide a commercial express bus service on the newly opened motorway then you really living somewhere very strange.
That's almost akin to saying there should be no express coach services between Dublin and Cork or Dublin and Galway on those motorways.
I'm sorry, but people are entitled to a choice.
Bus Eireann had for years operated auxiliary departures on the route due to excessive demand - this frankly formalised that.
Attacking Bus Eireann for taking a commercial decision to operate a service that another operator would have snapped up in all likelihood really is daft.
Why not instead focus on IE on the poor management of the services that they have had from the outset - poor marketing, appalling scheduling, lack of creativity and general disinterest.
A timetable that does not (as a prime objective) offer connectivity at Limerick Junction to Cork and Waterford with minimal connecting times off the majority of services is frankly unforgivable.
For this service to have any hope (in my view) it needs to be a Galway-Waterford service with tight connections at Limerick Junction. To do that the crossover that was inexplicably removed east of Limerick Junction needs to be reinstated.
I'd suggest focussing on what IE is doing wrong is the best way forward.0 -
mightn't go that far foggy but I'm on record as saying that's what should happen on Ballybrophy-Limerick for example, where the bustitution services have to hold back because they are timetabled to slower and longer rail paths. If a rail route can't manage 70mph over a good chunk of its route, isn't carrying 36TEU freight trains, isn't managing 200+ people on peak services, isn't connecting communities with poor road options its rationale is weakened.So basically the doubling up on journeys by the different arms of CIE will have to stop, that means closing the WRC as well as the train from Gorey or even Greystones to Wexford and also a radical cutting back on the Cork route for Irish Rail as well as many Dublin Bus routes being cut or curtailed as they serve all the same places as the dart and commuter rail.
Unlike some on here and what I was accused about by lxflyer, I try to look at the facts on the ground as I have them, and what I see in the Irish marketplace is lots of interest in express services by private operators but Irish Rail being obliged to bring packed 100mph services to a halt to serve villages.0 -
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Please note the name change and the split of posts.
Please generally keep on the topic as the thread title -- given the topics are interlinked some overlap is expected, but try to keep away from posting mostly about the other thread topic.
- moderator0
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