Western Rail Corridor (Galway-Limerick section)

corktina

I think I understand why you split this but could you correct the title to Athenry to Limerick section? (or even better , Athenry to Ennis)

LXFlyer

I think Galway to Limerick is appropriate - that's the operational section over which the trains are running.

It's worthwhile considering the line as a whole from Galway to Limerick Junction and onwards to Waterford.

The point I would suggest is to discuss what could be done with the current railway, and keep it separate from the greenway -v- railway debate.

Grandeeod

Personally I think that Ennis - Athenry is a better description. Prior to the WRC reopening Limerick - Ennis was running and so were services between Athenry - Galway. Once everyone accepts this in the debate, we've no problem.

LXFlyer

Grandeeod wrote: »

Personally I think that Ennis - Athenry is a better description. Prior to the WRC reopening Limerick - Ennis was running and so were services between Athenry - Galway. Once everyone accepts this in the debate, we've no problem.

I don't dispute that - but I think it is more relevant to discuss the line as a whole. Trains are not simply running from Athenry to Ennis!

Grandeeod

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't dispute that - but I think it is more relevant to discuss the line as a whole. Trains are not simply running from Athenry to Ennis!

Absolutely no problem with that as long as posters respect the fact that either end of the line existed already.

monument

The title is fine as Galway to Limerick -- discussion may include a bit about connections to onward services or services which partly use other lines. You're even welcome to remind people what bits of the railway was there before X time or X project.

Regardless this thread is mainly about the operational railway and services running on it.

For now: On topic please!

steamengine

We were discussing the limited capacity for transporting cycling tourists and their bikes by train on the other WRC thread and this newspaper article appeared on a Google search - looks recent !!!

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2887:limited-space-for-bikes-on-trains-hits-tourism&catid=42:transport&Itemid=60

Could this be a life-line for the under utilised Athenry - Ennis stretch of the WRC ? To cater for cycling tourists from both home and abroad, perhaps consideration should be given to initiating a daily direct train throughout the tourist season from Dublin or Rosslare with already suitable rolling stock or trains modified to carry 50/50 split of passengers and bikes ?

The present situation is that the 22K trains can only carry 3 bikes per 3 car train and this is wholly inadequate to support cycling in the West generally.

Certainly, judging from the passenger numbers feedback, nobody has to stand on this section of the line.

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

We were discussing the limited capacity for transporting cycling tourists and their bikes by train on the other WRC thread and this newspaper article appeared on a Google search - looks recent !!!

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2887:limited-space-for-bikes-on-trains-hits-tourism&catid=42:transport&Itemid=60

Could this be a life-line for the under utilised Athenry - Ennis stretch of the WRC ? To cater for cycling tourists from both home and abroad, perhaps consideration should be given to initiating a daily direct train throughout the tourist season from Dublin or Rosslare with already suitable rolling stock or trains modified to carry 50/50 split of passengers and bikes ?

The present situation is that the 22K trains can only carry 3 bikes per 3 car train and this is wholly inadequate to support cycling in the West generally.

Certainly, judging from the passenger numbers feedback, nobody has to stand on this section of the line.

Has anyone ever paid the €6 or €12 and brought their bike on the WRC train? Are there numbers for the number of bikes carried on this stretch of line?

galwaycyclist

foggy_lad wrote: »

Has anyone ever paid the €6 or €12 and brought their bike on the WRC train? Are there numbers for the number of bikes carried on this stretch of line?

Yes, from Galway to Limerick and back. The ticket machines in Galway didnt do bikes so I had to buy the ticket for that in Limerick after the fact.

foggy_lad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes, from Galway to Limerick and back. The ticket machines in Galway didnt do bikes so I had to buy the ticket for that in Limerick after the fact.

ok so that is one cyclist on one train, did you have any issue with accommodation for the bike? or was there 19 other cyclists waiting to board beside you?

galwaycyclist

foggy_lad wrote: »

ok so that is one cyclist on one train, did you have any issue with accommodation for the bike? or was there 19 other cyclists waiting to board beside you?

On that occasion it was 2 passengers on one train, both with bikes. Saturday morning service. I can't remember the detail of the bike storage. But given the absence of other passenger demand on that service at that time of day, I think it would be foolish to turn away 20 cyclists simply because you can't be bothered designing your rolling stock properly.

corktina

convertible accommodation isn't necessarily practical though, as should one mode be occupying that part of the train, it may not be possible to accommodate the other. Separate space is the way, but how much do you provide? 20 spaces would be overkill 99% of the time I feel.

galwaycyclist

corktina wrote: »

convertible accommodation isn't necessarily practical though, as should one mode be occupying that part of the train, it may not be possible to accommodate the other. Separate space is the way, but how much do you provide? 20 spaces would be overkill 99% of the time I feel.

In terms of practicality all we are talking about is "tip up" seats like you have in the cinema. Its not rocket science.

corktina

galwaycyclist wrote: »

In terms of practicality all we are talking about is "tip up" seats like you have in the cinema. Its not rocket science.

you miss the point. What if someone is sitting in that seat when a cyclist wants to board?

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

you miss the point. What if someone is sitting in that seat when a cyclist wants to board?

Also what cost will discommoding at least 4 passengers just for 2-3 bikes incur?

Other train companies in other countries are able to provide whole or half carriages of space for things like bikes or backpackers even when these "visiting tourists" are only there seasonally but the big difference between them and us is the numbers. would swiss railways have provided space for skis and backpackers luggage for years if there were only a small number of such visitors each year?

galwaycyclist

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also what cost will discommoding at least 4 passengers just for 2-3 bikes incur?

Other train companies in other countries are able to provide whole or half carriages of space for things like bikes or backpackers even when these "visiting tourists" are only there seasonally but the big difference between them and us is the numbers. would swiss railways have provided space for skis and backpackers luggage for years if there were only a small number of such visitors each year?

So we should not provide enhanced services on the basis that this might, on occasion, discommode people who might not always be there?

You could extend the same argument to priority seats for the elderly or disabled or to wheel chair space, or space for baby buggies.

Chicken and egg. Would the Swiss have those numbers of those visitors if, like us, they had abjectly failed to provide services for them?

corktina

yep, what if a passenger boards, all the normal seats are taken ...what will he think of a situation where usable seats are tipped-up so that a bike can be accommodated and he has to stand. There's a cost here in lost business when he won't use the train again.

corktina

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So we should not provide enhanced services on the basis that this might, on occasion, discommode people who might not always be there?

You could extend the same argument to priority seats for the elderly or disabled or to wheel chair space, or space for baby buggies.

Chicken and egg. Would the Swiss have those numbers of those visitors if, like us, they had abjectly failed to provide services for them?

but if the accommodation isn't there and has to be provided, who will pay the real cost of that provision and if the burden falls on the Railway, what if it pushes the line over the edge inot bankruptcy?


buggies and wheelchairs are a differnet matter, they are a necessity to their users, bikes are not

galwaycyclist

corktina wrote: »

yep, what if a passenger boards, all the normal seats are taken ...what will he think of a situation where usable seats are tipped-up so that a bike can be accommodated and he has to stand. There's a cost here in lost business when he won't use the train again.

You are trying to think of this as an intercity service when it isn't. The peak passenger demand is Athenry-Galway and Ennis-Limerick. These are the only sections where that level of demand for seats is likely to arise and in other countries it would be considered little hardship to stand for the time involved.

In any case who said that level of bicycle carriage should be available at peak travel hours? You are arguably cutting your nose off to spite your face. You would rather have empty seats on off-peak services rather than accept that peak hour commuting conditions are not always ideal on any well subscribed public transport system.

corktina

no I'd rather have an old fashioned guards van for bikes....but the stock we have is the stock we shall have for decades.....

the train does not need to be full...there might be just one passenger sitting in the tip up seats who refuses to move...what then? (you know this might happen, people are like that!

foggy_lad

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So we should not provide enhanced services on the basis that this might, on occasion, discommode people who might not always be there?

So to be clear we should turf people out of their seats whenever a cyclist wants to take the train?

There is no happy medium to be had here on the WRC as there is firstly no cash available for retrofitting ICR's with "special seats for cyclists as these sets would then be non standard and as such going completly against the apparrent current IR policy of standardised trains.

second there is no real benefit in possibly discommoding so many passengers just to accommodate a few cyclists who have the option of taking the bus which is faster.

You could extend the same argument to priority seats for the elderly or disabled or to wheel chair space, or space for baby buggies.

Wheelchair spaces are possibly a legal obligation and seats with priority for the elderly etc are not discommoding anyone as there is no obligation on any passenger to give up theri seat for anyone!

Chicken and egg. Would the Swiss have those numbers of those visitors if, like us, they had abjectly failed to provide services for them?

Would they have a railway if they had so many empty luggage/bike/ski spaces but the visitors had not materialised?

corktina

having seen this thread split recently, I feel it should be further split and this discussion be hived off as it applies to all train services, not just the WRC.

steamengine

To provide just 3 spaces for bikes re: 22ks is really a back covering exercise by Irish Rail - Oh Yes ! we do carry bikes !

Look at it from a practical point of view - a cyclist ex-Dublin wants to spend a weekend cycling in North Clare starting off in Lehinch. Cycles up to Heuston and yes ok., there is an available bike space on the train and off he/she goes.

Change at Athenry for Ennis, maybe there is a space or maybe not. Anyway assume there is and off he/she goes.

Good stuff - pedals up around Black Head and the Burren over the next day or so, and decides to get the train back from Ardrahan to Athenry - may be there's a space, maybe not - same story at Athenry for Dublin ?

Or have I got it wrong, please enlighten me if I have ? No, I'm not booking, I want to travel on spec. It's not a big ask, perfectly feasible years ago with the Guards van, so how about removing a few seats to create similar cargo space ?

LXFlyer

I cannot see there ever being a problem bringing a bike on the WRC - they are operated by 2800s with plenty of room.

steamengine

lxflyer wrote: »

I cannot see there ever being a problem bringing a bike on the WRC - they are operated by 2800s with plenty of room.

Well that's good news, I stand corrected on that one - how many bikes can they carry ?

How about the journey back from Athenry to Dublin ? Is there not an inherent level of uncertainty in that the limited number of bike spaces could be already taken up - enough to put an intending cyclist off starting out on the journey in the first place ?

Zoney

corktina wrote: »

the line will never compete with a 1 hour 21 min coach...thats around 40 minutes quicker....even with rocket propulsion they couldn't match that on a twisty meandering route with a reversal thrown in.

That bus service simply doesn't exist. I've travelled on both the X51 and the Citylink service (the latter is a bit more comfortable) regularly enough and neither are usually close to 1 hr 20. When you've been told you'll be there in 1 hr 20, to be regularly at least 10 mins later than that, and often more like 20 mins later, it's very very annoying. Especially when it's not usually just down to traffic. The timetables are just marketing, not actual timetabling.

I've only occasionally used the railway service when the times suited and when travelling with family members with kids. It's slower than it needs to be (a lot of sitting around waiting in stations). There shouldn't be any stops between Ennis and Galway except Gort.

And in this day and age, yes, it is a serious inconvenience not being able to book online. It's a pain that you can't buy Citylink bus ticket either after the bus has left Cork.

The price isn't great but would be OK if it was quicker and you could book online.

The service isn't too badly run against what it's set out to be, only complaint really is how grim Galway station is, even though Limerick isn't exactly bright and modern inside. Ridiculous that there can't be two platforms inside the station proper either.

corktina

i'm looking forward to the first attempt at not stopping at Athenry Zoney.

dowlingm

Zoney wrote: »

only complaint really is how grim Galway station is, even though Limerick isn't exactly bright and modern inside. Ridiculous that there can't be two platforms inside the station proper either.

There was a grand plan to redevelop the station and add a platform but it wasn't drawn up till the last gasp of the property boom so that's that.

wonder88

Maybe the reduction of the price of ticket from Oranmore to Galway will attract more passangers. If deals on tickets could be introduced the Galway/Limerick service might yet become viable.

westtip

wonder88 wrote: »

Maybe the reduction of the price of ticket from Oranmore to Galway will attract more passangers. If deals on tickets could be introduced the Galway/Limerick service might yet become viable.

It will never be commercially viable - so we have to be careful when we use such words. Half the ticket prices and double the number of passengers (to average of 16 per train) results in same revenue and overheads and costs remain the same. Most public transport services are not viable commercially and lose money and are subvented; there is nothing wrong with that, some things need to be funded from the state, the point that needs to be looked at with any service is when does the subvention cost per passenger become unsustainable and unjustified. We have probably reached this stage now on the WRC. In any event, if it can be proven that a private operator can offer a quicker and cheaper alternative - which the xpress bus services between galway and limerick seem to be doing, how can it be justified to subvent one service even further in order to allow it to compete with a private service - someone in the private bus companies would cry foul. This is the dilemna of private versus public in any transport solution. If the subvention on the WRC from Ennis to Athenry (providing the link between galway/Limerick) was re-directed to the rural bus schemes - would that have the greater benefit for the greater number. We do need subvention on rural transport in the west, to make parts of our community socially inclusive, but I am not convinced that subventing a slow and inefficient rail line that can no longer compete with the xpress bus services is the right choice and not sure it really adds to any kind of social inclusion. We need to face facts, phase one of the Western Rail corridor has failed, it was an interesting and costly experiment, but it has failed. Time to move on.

oh and BTW, oranmore is on the main Dublin - Galway line - so if the promotion results in more people using the short hop commuter service into Galway on this line, it is not an issue of more people using the WRC, although no doubt some spin will be made of it by WOT!