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Is alcoholism a disease?

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    #92
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    ldn92 wrote: »
    You're right it doesn't make me an expert but I've seen what it does to a person and how much of a struggle it is for the person.

    That's fair enough and I respect anyone who's survived such a challenging thing.

    Let there be no doubt about it that I understand that people can have their lives wrecked by addiction or being around an addict.


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    #93
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #94
    Bench Press
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭Bench Press


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    AA's (puritanically derived) definition of an alcoholic would probably deem most drinkers as alcoholics - which is absolute bollocks of the highest order.
    explain AA's definition to me


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    #95
    Play To Kill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭Play To Kill


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    There is no definition of alcoholic. It's a pop-psych term that's thrown around liberally.

    AA's (puritanically derived) definition of an alcoholic would probably deem most drinkers as alcoholics - which is absolute bollocks of the highest order.

    AA's definition of an alcoholism is ''a physical compulsion, coupled
    with a mental obsession'' That does not deem most drinkers alcoholics.


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    #96
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    What you're describing there is an addiction.
    A person can be addicted to biting their nails or eating the foam out of the couch seats. Addiction can take weird and varied forms.
    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    There is no definition of alcoholic.
    My definition of alcoholism is someone who gets drunk every night or uses drink as a crutch to deal with problems. There are many definitions of alcoholism but we all know what it looks like. Spending time dealing with the definitions is pointless.


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    #97
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    ScumLord wrote: »
    A person can be addicted to biting their nails or eating the foam out of the couch seats. Addiction can take weird and varied forms.

    My definition of alcoholism is someone who gets drunk every night or uses drink as a crutch to deal with problems. There are many definitions of alcoholism but we all know what it looks like. Spending time dealing with the definitions is pointless.

    Yes - but do addictions make diseases? What is the defining characteristic of addiction to alcohol that separates it as a disease from all other addictions such as nicotine or heroin? Is heroin addiction a disease?

    If they're using alcohol to deal with the problems, then the 'problems' are the principal problem, with the alcoholism following from that, this doesn't mean we classify alcoholism as a disease but the underlying problem as a different disease.


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    #98
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    johnty56 wrote: »
    Again, in fairness, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are trolling.

    I neither seek nor need your benefit of the doubt.

    40% of people have voted no. Do you think that 40% of the people who agree that alcoholism is not a disease are trolling?

    If you can't handle that people will have opinions that chap your ass then maybe stick to the sunshine and lollipops threads.


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    #99
    johnty56
    Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭johnty56


    From reading some of the replies I think a lot of people just genuinely don't understand the difference between a social drinker and an alcoholic.. maybe read a little on the subject and try to get some perspective on the reality of alcoholism.. it generally isn't 'drinking to forget' or some notion like that!


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    #100
    Kettleson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Kettleson


    blatantrereg wrote: »
    Yes.

    Portugal has improved the levels of substance abuse by dealing with all forms of it in the context of healthcare instead of justice. This seems to have substantially reduced the overall impact on health and society there.

    Interesting. Gambling in Portugal is illegal (I think). I wonder what its rate of people being referred for gambling addiction are? I'd guess much lower than here or the UK.

    The levels of advertising of Internet gambling and casino games, bingo etc in the UK is incredible. I'm just imagining all sorts of folk maxing up various credit cards and getting themselves and their families into a sorry mess.


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    #101
    MonkstownHoop
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭MonkstownHoop


    ScumLord wrote: »
    A person can be addicted to biting their nails or eating the foam out of the couch seats. Addiction can take weird and varied forms.

    My definition of alcoholism is someone who gets drunk every night or uses drink as a crutch to deal with problems. There are many definitions of alcoholism but we all know what it looks like. Spending time dealing with the definitions is pointless.

    an alcoholic doesnt only drink at night


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    #102
    johnty56
    Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭johnty56


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    I neither seek nor need your benefit of the doubt.

    40% of people have voted no. Do you think that 40% of the people who agree that alcoholism is not a disease are trolling?

    If you can't handle that people will have opinions that chap your ass then piss off to the sunshine and lollipops threads.

    so the fact that 40% of the people who have read this thread, the vast majority of whom have, I would assume, no training or qualifications related to the field of discussion, agree with your proposition makes me unrealistic or unable to deal with your 'reality'??? Which I may add goes against the overwhelming grain of medical opinion and academic study.

    you are the one living in a fantasy land. You are a real keyboard tough guy aren't you? I know your type.


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    #103
    MonkstownHoop
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭MonkstownHoop


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    I neither seek nor need your benefit of the doubt.

    40% of people have voted no. Do you think that 40% of the people who agree that alcoholism is not a disease are trolling?

    If you can't handle that people will have opinions that chap your ass then maybe stick to the sunshine and lollipops threads.

    i can only assume 40% of voters have not had to deal closely with someone who suffers from alcoholism


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    #104
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    johnty56 wrote: »
    so the fact that 40% of the people who have read this thread, the vast majority of whom have, I would assume, no training or qualifications related to the field of discussion, ....

    you are the one living in a fantasy land.

    And the other 60% have all the appropriate training and qualifications?

    I think you should mirror that last line back to yourself.


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    #105
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #106
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    Yes - but do addictions make diseases? What is the defining characteristic of addiction to alcohol that separates it as a disease from all other addictions such as nicotine or heroin? Is heroin addiction a disease?
    The point is disease is a general term that describes something that causes pain.
    MonkstownHoop wrote: »
    an alcoholic doesnt only drink at night
    That's some fine nitpicking there. Well done.


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    #107
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    johnty56 wrote: »
    Which I may add goes against the overwhelming grain of medical opinion and academic study. you are the one living in a fantasy land.

    I'm the only person on the entire thread who has linked to a peer reviewed academic journal that casts aspersions on the disease model of alcoholism. All you have is what appears to be a cherished dogma.
    You are a real keyboard tough guy aren't you? I know your type.

    :confused:

    Stop upsetting yourself over nothing.


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    #108
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Wikipedia defines 'Alcoholism' as:
    Alcoholism is a broad term for problems with alcohol, and is generally used to mean compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcoholic beverages, usually to the detriment of the drinker's health, personal relationships, and social standing. It is medically considered a disease, specifically an addictive illness.

    Thus, I'm going to reiterate my challenge to the proponents that it really should be considered a disease.

    Take a look at my edited version of that definition above:
    Heroinism is a broad term for problems with heroin, and is generally used to mean compulsive and uncontrolled use of heroin, usually to the detriment of the user's health, personal relationships, and social standing. It is medically considered a disease, specifically an addictive illness.

    All I've done it replaced Heroin with Alcohol, 'drinker' with 'user' and 'Alcoholism' with my newly formed disease 'Heroinism'.

    How many of you accept, therefore, that Heroinism exists as a "Disease"?


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    #109
    MonkstownHoop
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭MonkstownHoop


    ScumLord wrote: »
    The point is disease is a general term that describes something that causes pain.

    That's some fine nitpicking there. Well done.

    well it would be a general assumption of the ignorant, the alco falling in the door at night


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    #110
    johnty56
    Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭johnty56


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    And the other 60% have all the appropriate training and qualifications?

    I think you should mirror that last line back to yourself.

    Jaysus... is that what passes for discussion here? 'I know you are but what am I?'


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    #111
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    MonkstownHoop wrote: »
    i can only assume 40% of voters have not had to deal closely with someone who suffers from alcoholism

    Why is this bull**** non-argument trotted out as some sort of justification for an opinion?

    Being around an 'alcoholic' no more qualifies you on the subject than driving a cancer patient to the hospital qualifies a taxi-driver to treat leukaemia.


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    #112
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    Wikipedia defines 'Alcoholism' as:
    Look at how wiki describes a desease and tell me alcoholism isn't a disease.
    How many of you accept, therefore, that Heroinism exists as a "Disease"?
    Depends on your definition of a disease.


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    #113
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Why is this bull**** non-argument trotted out as some sort of justification for an opinion?

    Being around an 'alcoholic' no more qualifies you on the subject than driving a cancer patient to the hospital qualifies a taxi-driver to treat leukaemia.

    Because those who have had to experience alcoholism in one way or another understand it more. They have seen the process and the effects.


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    #114
    Play To Kill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭Play To Kill


    ScumLord wrote: »
    My definition of alcoholism is someone who gets drunk every night or uses drink as a crutch to deal with problems.

    Thats more a definition of a heavy drinker in my opinion. I didn't drink everyday, I often went months without a drink but when the compulsion came I had to drink. I went through many problems in my life where I didn't drink including the death of one of my children, I didn't use alcohol as a crutch for anything. The compulsion just came and I was powerless to against it when it did. For many of the final years of my drinking I couldn't get drunk but I still had to drink when the compulsion came.


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    #115
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Being around an 'alcoholic' no more qualifies you on the subject than driving a cancer patient to the hospital qualifies a taxi-driver to treat leukaemia.
    Yes living with an alcoholic for years is the same as spending 15 minutes with an alcoholic. It's a pity the education system couldn't tie into this magic time tomfoolery.


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    #116
    johnty56
    Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭johnty56


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Why is this bull**** non-argument trotted out as some sort of justification for an opinion?

    Being around an 'alcoholic' no more qualifies you on the subject than driving a cancer patient to the hospital qualifies a taxi-driver to treat leukaemia.

    You seem to have trouble grasping this concept so I will break it down. If you spent 2 years living in a house with a person with a serious illness do you think you might acquire a little knowledge of their condition... what triggers deteriorations, what helps, what causes it etc etc? Maybe not, maybe you'd be too busy putting your opinions out there on't web, either winding people up or worse, genuinely believing it... btw, nice edit earlier.. don't worry squire.. I wasn't going to report the post;)


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    #117
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Play To Kill wrote: »
    Thats more a definition of a heavy drinker in my opinion. I didn't drink everyday, I often went months without a drink but when the compulsion came I had to drink. I went through many problems in my life where I didn't drink including the death of one of my children, I didn't use alcohol as a crutch for anything. The compulsion just came and I was powerless to against it when it did. For many of the final years of my drinking I couldn't get drunk but I still had to drink when the compulsion came.
    That's a fair point, I even have a friend who just can't drink, in the sense that one or two pints turns him into a complete nutter. It's a broad issue that has no clear lines saying what is and isn't an alcoholic. I guess just, has a problem with drink would cover it.


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    #118
    worded
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭worded


    I've an alcoholic relative and to me it's indulgence not a disease.

    Obesity is not a disease in he third world either.

    Man or mouse? We would all love to gamble, drink, smoke etc but some of us can control our urges.

    Can't stop or won't stop? Man up


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    #119
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    Because those who have had to experience alcoholism in one way or another understand it more.

    Don't confuse experience with expertise.
    johnty56 wrote: »
    If you spent 2 years living in a house with a person with a serious illness do you think you might acquire a little knowledge of their condition... what triggers deteriorations, what helps, what causes it etc etc?

    If the knowledge is coming from an unreliable source then its not worth the paper it's written on.
    Maybe not, maybe you'd be too busy putting your opinions out there on't web, either winding people up or worse, genuinely believing it...

    You're the one getting upset pal. You've little to go on but a dearly held opinion. There is no indisputable evidence that alcoholism is a disease.

    Deal with it.


    Edit: I see that the majority of people who've voted on the poll are now 'trolls'.

    Good man.


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    #120
    Kettleson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Kettleson


    ScumLord wrote: »
    That's a fair point, I even have a friend who just can't drink, in the sense that one or two pints turns him into a complete nutter. It's a broad issue that has no clear lines saying what is and isn't an alcoholic. I guess just, has a problem with drink would cover it.

    "A problem with drink" is a very good way of describing it. There are far too many excuses made for not dealing with the problem, including in many cases, calling it a disease.


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    #121
    johnty56
    Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭johnty56


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Don't confuse experience with expertise.



    If the knowledge is coming from an unreliable source then its not worth the paper it's written on.



    You're the one getting upset pal. You've little to go but a dearly held opinion. There is no indisputable evidence that alcoholism is a disease.

    Deal with it.

    Sorry, but I'm going on 4 years of study of psychology... not dearly held opinion. My opinion has been formed by reading widely on the topic, looking at both sides of the argument, and then deciding ,on weight of evidence, which is the more logical.


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