Is alcoholism a disease?

Ed The Equalizer

Play To Kill wrote: »

I couldn't do this because it tastes like ****e and whats the point when you can't even get drunk on it? Imaging drinking non alcoholic poteen or vodka, what would be the point? I'd prefer a coffee myself!

This is another good example of the addictive voice - of course you'd prefer coffee, it's more addictive than non-alcoholic beer.

Ed The Equalizer

mickstupp wrote: »

More than anyone else here, Taok has made me want to try out a meeting. Doing it alone without a support system is bloody hard. Sometimes you just want to talk to someone who's going to take you seriously.

I suspect your inner addict has identified that AA members are still stuck in their addictions and would therefore be good people for you to hang out with.

Play To Kill

Taok wrote: »

If you think the answer to that is nothing then I still think you're an idiot.

Ok, I now officially consider you to be an idiot

And you sir are unable to debate without resorting to immature name calling and personal abuse, well done, you invalidated any credibility you may have had.

Aidric

Reading this excellent piece by Gabriel Byrne I was reminded of this thread.

As a society we must begin to view this deadly illness not with condemnation but with compassion, and cease criminalising or romanticising the suffering of the addict. Let’s stop the prurient and voyeuristic media reporting of their sad travails (Lindsey Lohan, Amanda Bynes, Paul Gascoigne).

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/what-fresh-lunacy-is-this-the-authorized-biography-of-oliver-reed-by-robert-sellers-1.1481861?page=1

Maximus Alexander

I voted yes but I think it's more complicated than that. I think alcoholism is actually a symptom.

Kettleson

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/what-fresh-lunacy-is-this-the-authorized-biography-of-oliver-reed-by-robert-sellers-1.1481861?page=1[/QUOTE]


An interesting read, but IMO has its weaknesses and ultimately reverts to issuing a general sympathy card for anyone with an alcohol problem.

Put the violins away and toughen up.


""...As a society we must begin to view this deadly illness not with condemnation but with compassion, and cease criminalising or romanticising the suffering of the addict""


"""Alcoholism (long thought to be a moral failing) was declared by the American Medical Association to be an illness in 1956, both psychiatrically and medically, and we now know, with recent advances in neuroscience, that addiction is as much a disorder of the brain as any other neurological illness""


Reference a bit out of date for starters...OK there's still a lot that we don't know about the workings of the brain and its function/disorder, but again another generalisation is applied. And surely persons who display extreme talents and abilities could also be assessed has having an abnormal brain function.

Play To Kill

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I voted yes but I think it's more complicated than that. I think alcoholism is actually a symptom.

What would it be a symptom of? When you consider the backgrounds of alcoholics it's very difficult to pick out anything that all have in common, wealth or lack of it doesn't seem to be a factor and neither does upbringing, not all alcoholics would say they were depressed at any time in their lives before becoming alcoholic. I think alcoholism is the problem and everything else is just the symptoms.

Play To Kill

Kettleson wrote: »

Put the violins away and toughen up.

This I agree with, alcoholics don't need sympathy, they need help.

Today Paul Gascoigne to my mind displayed the typical behaviour of someone who has alcoholism rather than someone who simply has a problem with drink, instead of the widely held belief that alcoholics use alcoholism as an excuse for their behaviour Gascoigne didn't look for sympathy, he offered no excuse for what he did, he explained what happened, pleaded guilty and asked for privacy to continue his recovery.

mattjack

Play To Kill wrote: »

What would it be a symptom of? When you consider the backgrounds of alcoholics it's very difficult to pick out anything that all have in common, wealth or lack of it doesn't seem to be a factor and neither does upbringing, not all alcoholics would say they were depressed at any time in their lives before becoming alcoholic. I think alcoholism is the problem and everything else is just the symptoms.

A symptom being a manifestation of something not necessarily a trauma.

WilyCoyote

A very readable titillating article but Gabriel's sincerity and a little naivety turns a good tale into a kinda crusade.

Alcoholism is as much a disease as obesity. If you cured your obesity using the 12 steps, you'd be joining Oliver Reed et al PDQ.

You've got to get the monkey off your back and after working your head around the whole miasma of crazy, compulsive, out-of-control drinking, you can establish who's running the show and return to normal drinking. (But only after getting rid of the alcoholic thought process).

I thought that this thread had run it's course but it's returned - like the DTs. Hope I haven't contributed to the furtively moving panorama

Play To Kill

WilyCoyote wrote: »

I thought that this thread had run it's course

So did I but sure it'll be different this time :pac:

Maximus Alexander

Play To Kill wrote: »

What would it be a symptom of? When you consider the backgrounds of alcoholics it's very difficult to pick out anything that all have in common, wealth or lack of it doesn't seem to be a factor and neither does upbringing, not all alcoholics would say they were depressed at any time in their lives before becoming alcoholic. I think alcoholism is the problem and everything else is just the symptoms.

Admittedly I only have the people in my own life to go on, but the alcoholics I've been exposed to are people with deeper issues which appear to have led to a dependence on alcohol.

Depression isn't always as obvious as alcoholism, and indeed you can be depressed without necessarily being aware of it. A lot of people don't understand what it is and think that it involves feeling really sad all the time. It can, but doesn't have to.

Play To Kill

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Admittedly I only have the people in my own life to go on, but the alcoholics I've been exposed to are people with deeper issues which appear to have led to a dependence on alcohol.

Would it be fair then to say that they may not have alcoholism, they have other problems that lead them to drink which someone like yourself presumes is alcoholism? Do the majority of people think alcoholism is just out of control drinking and maybe not fully understand the difference between drinking to excess and alcoholism?

Maximus Alexander

Play To Kill wrote: »

Would it be fair then to say that they may not have alcoholism, they have other problems that lead them to drink which someone like yourself presumes is alcoholism? Do the majority of people think alcoholism is just out of control drinking and maybe not fully understand the difference between drinking to excess and alcoholism?

If drinking at home, alone, seven nights a week and hiding bottles vodka around the house to drink when nobody is looking doesn't constitute alcoholism, then maybe I don't understand the difference.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Play To Kill wrote: »

Would it be fair then to say that they may not have alcoholism, they have other problems that lead them to drink which someone like yourself presumes is alcoholism? Do the majority of people think alcoholism is just out of control drinking and maybe not fully understand the difference between drinking to excess and alcoholism?

I think Maximus Alexander's post definitely indicates alcoholism (and that's before his reply). Depression and alcoholism can often come hand in hand.

Play To Kill

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

I think Maximus Alexander's post definitely indicates alcoholism (and that's before his reply). Depression and alcoholism can often come hand in hand.

I'd agree, I was just pointing out how difficult it is to put a definitive explaination on what alcoholism is, I know many who have done the exact same things but equally as many who haven't, I'm sure you've also met many who have drank to excess almost daily and others who only drank in binges a couple of times a year. I think alcoholism is a lot different to the commonly held perceptions of what it is.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Play To Kill wrote: »

I'd agree, I was just pointing out how difficult it is to put a definitive explaination on what alcoholism is, I know many who have done the exact same things but equally as many who haven't, I'm sure you've also met many who have drank to excess almost daily and others who only drank in binges a couple of times a year. I think alcoholism is a lot different to the commonly held perceptions of what it is.

Of course and I have made that point before myself. I'm just not sure that it had much relevance to Maximus Alexander's post.

Kettleson

Play To Kill wrote: »

This I agree with, alcoholics don't need sympathy, they need help.

Today Paul Gascoigne to my mind displayed the typical behaviour of someone who has alcoholism rather than someone who simply has a problem with drink, instead of the widely held belief that alcoholics use alcoholism as an excuse for their behaviour Gascoigne didn't look for sympathy, he offered no excuse for what he did, he explained what happened, pleaded guilty and asked for privacy to continue his recovery.

Paul Gascoigne has many friends ralllying around, and who have spent many tens of thousands of pounds to get Paul the help that he needs. I would suggest to you that this seemingly well balanced approach might well be as a result of that. Many others suffering from that addiction will not have had that benefit.

And I would also say do not be fooled by his apparent self flagellation. That can be part of the denial/deception.

I am reminded of the no-nonsense approach that Rodney Marsh had with George Best. The sympathy brigade were rallying around saying help, disease, illness, counselling, sympathy etc.

Rodney Marsh on Sky Tv said, "I have a terrible feeling about how this is going to end for George, and I have a feeling that George knows it as well". (or words to that effect, I'd appreciate if someone could find the actual clip).

Was George stringing the inevitable out? Did he know what the future held? I think he did. Was he genuine in letting the cameras in to see him on his death bed? What motivated that? I think he had a big heart, and that he did that for the right reasons.

But I never met the man. I can't pass further comment with any sound basis,

George Bests death was an absolute tragedy. Was it unnecessary? Was in inevitable in the way it was? Did he have a disease? Or an acquired illness due to mental health issues? Dreadfully sad whatever way you lookat it. And such a loss. Alcohol abuse kills, whatever the cause or motivation to abuse it.

And now Paul Gascoinge? I think most people have a terrible feeling about how this will end for Paul, and I think he knows it as well. So how did he get to where he is it?

Another tragedy waiting to happen.

Play To Kill

Kettleson wrote: »

Paul Gascoigne has many friends ralllying around, and who have spent many tens of thousands of pounds to get Paul the help that he needs. I would suggest to you that this seemingly well balanced approach might well be as a result of that. Many others suffering from that addiction will not have had that benefit.

He didn't seem to have many friends just before christmas when I saw him on his daily routine, then these 'friends' appeared and gave him sympathy and paid for him to go into treatment but that didn't work, by July he drank again and assaulted a security guard for which he was in court today. Those friends were nowhere to be seen today.

Jimmy Greaves was more of a friend with his honesty at the same time as these friends were passing round the collection plate.

I’m sure these people are well-meaning and will enjoy being thought well of for trying to help. But people all too often want to help alcoholics at arm’s length, on their own terms. You cannot help an alcoholic on your own terms. So, if you want a dose of reality, let me give you one. There is no recovery from alcoholism. You can recover from a heart attack. You can mend broken bones. But alcoholism is an incredibly complex mental illness which never leaves you. It doesn’t matter that I’ve not had a drink for 34 years. For me, it’s still about not having one today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2278258/Jimmy-Greaves-light-end-tunnel-Paul-Gascoigne.html

Kettleson

Play To Kill wrote: »

He didn't seem to have many friends just before christmas when I saw him on his daily routine, then these 'friends' appeared and gave him sympathy and paid for him to go into treatment but that didn't work, by July he drank again and assaulted a security guard for which he was in court today. Those friends were nowhere to be seen today.

Jimmy Greaves was more of a friend with his honesty at the same time as these friends were passing round the collection plate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2278258/Jimmy-Greaves-light-end-tunnel-Paul-Gascoigne.html

I don't think having a go at Gascoignes friends is fair. (if that is indeed what you have intended). Most, if not all of those that rallied round do not understand the reality of it all. In desperation, paying for rehab is all they can do. The ones that stayed away, probably stayed away for the right reasons.

Quoting Jimmy Greaves reminded me that in '87 we got a pal into the same hospital in Colchester where Greaves was treated. Unlike Greaves, he never made it out. Vodka victim.

So where for Gascoigne now? Where is rockbottom for Gazza? Has he reached it? I think not. Complete isolation and destitution?, the "black bag option" ?living in ditch or homeless shelters? Will he always have a well meaning friend to bail him out?

One of Jimmy Greaves earlier quotes about Gascoigne is even more telling.

"but if the actual person is not interested, there is no point. I've dealt with some friends, helped them if I can, but the person has to come to you. If you are going to them, you are wasting your time.'"

I feel Gazza has to get on with it himself but I wouldn't be sneering at his friends either.

Kettleson

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1252411/Jimmy-Greaves-Hes-Englands-prolific-funniest-goalscorer-prefers-watching-rugby-cricket.html

As its Jimmy Greaves own words, I'll post a link to the Mail.

Play To Kill

I wasn't having a go at his friends, I believe their actions are well intended but misguided. I did say way back in this thread that people who try to deal with an alcoholic in this way don't realize that they are enabling the alcoholic to drink. The problem never leaves the alcoholic and you can throw as much money, treatment centers and doctors as you want at the problem but it won't stop an alcoholic drinking. An alcoholic will only stop when the pain of drinking becomes worse than the pain of not drinking. Treatment centers and so on will help with addiction to alcohol but none can treat alcoholism which I believe runs deeper than addiction.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Play To Kill wrote: »

I wasn't having a go at his friends, I believe their actions are well intended but misguided. I did say way back in this thread that people who try to deal with an alcoholic in this way don't realize that they are enabling the alcoholic to drink. The problem never leaves the alcoholic and you can throw as much money, treatment centers and doctors as you want at the problem but it won't stop an alcoholic drinking. An alcoholic will only stop when the pain of drinking becomes worse than the pain of not drinking. Treatment centers and so on will help with addiction to alcohol but none can treat alcoholism which I believe runs deeper than addiction.

That's a very simplistic way of looking at treatment centres. They don't just deal with the basic addiction. They deal with the full extent of addiction - the mental addiction, addictive behaviours, the reasons behind the addiction, getting back into the real world, finding triggers and working out how to avoid them etc as well as the physical addiction itself.

Alcoholism and addiction are the same thing. Neither just cover the physical addiction itself. One is just specific to alcohol while the other covers all types.