Should Schmidt drop BOD?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

jm08 wrote: »

Conflict of interests - BOD is involved in a player management agency(IKON Talent). Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Luke Fitz are a few among many players represented by them.

So because BOD has an agent, like virtually every Irish rugby player, he shouldn't be allowed coach within the national side?

Artful_Badger

jm08 wrote: »

What are the chances of Payne (or Bowe) being moved to 13 for Ulster? (to be honest, I reckon Payne will be needed at fullback for Ireland as we are a bit thin on the ground for good quality fullbacks.

Dont know. I know he's played there before though and when he played a game for Ulster at 13 he was very good. So even if only as cover/utility back while other players vie for positions he would be valuable to have.

.ak

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

So because BOD has an agent, like virtually every Irish rugby player, he shouldn't be allowed coach within the national side?

No, BOD is a shareholder in the agency.

BGozIE

BOD is going straight into TV work, probably with Sky. Guaranteed

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

.ak wrote: »

No, BOD is a shareholder in the agency.

Ah I see

MugMugs

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

I'd like to see Bowe play 13 after BOD retires. A backline like this would be sick.
9. Murray
10.Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Madigan
13. Bowe
14. Zebo
15. Kearney

The reason Bowe is so good outside is that he comes off his wing so well. What's the point in putting into 13?

And personally, I'd be sticking Marshall at 12 and Madigan at 11.

jm08

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

So because BOD has an agent, like virtually every Irish rugby player, he shouldn't be allowed coach within the national side?

BOD has a financial interest in the agency (along with Damian Duff). On the website they say they mentor IKON's talent.

Think on the lines of what you would think (and post) if Frankie Sheahan was given a coaching role with Ireland

.ak

I'd rather if BOD was to go into coaching that he'd learn his trade elsewhere. Like France, Aus or NZ.

Artful_Badger

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Ah I see

I'd hope that in a limited capacity there would be no conflict of interests. Be a shame if he went straight to TV punditry with his wealth of knowledge and experience while Ireland struggled to fill the gap he left behind.

Artful_Badger

.ak wrote: »

I'd rather if BOD was to go into coaching that he'd learn his trade elsewhere. Like France, Aus or NZ.

A short stint to help bridge the gap between him and his replacements would be great for all round. He gets some coaching exposure at high level and Irish rugby gets help filling his boots.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

I'd rather if BOD was to go into coaching that he'd learn his trade elsewhere. Like France, Aus or NZ.

I get the impression that when he does retire, he will go where Amy's career takes them - that could be London or Los Angeles.

MrDerp

As long as we play actual 13s after BOD, and stop trying to mould them out of wingers, we'll be fine.

We're going to lose a massive talent, and our backline will never be the same. O'Driscoll is a one-off, beyond even once in a generation players. I'd therefore be inclined to get every last drop out of him we can. His legs might not be what they were, but his brain and hands are still sharp. The alternatives will develop at their own pace.

I think the need for blooding backs at international level is a bit over-stated. Sure, everyone gets better with experience but anyone coming through for Ireland has a lot of top-class professional experience in the Heineken Cup, and they won't be so naive.

Far more scary, from my perspective, is the loss of O'Connell. In the ups and downs of the last 3/4 tournaments, I've often remarked that Ireland get by without O'Driscoll, but are likely to fall apart without O'Connell. The place where international experience really counts is in the huffing and puffing of the pack. These guys operate as much more of a unit, and while a shrewd back has flicks and tricks, a shrewd forward knows how to cheat with impunity at the highest level.

This is where the international games really count, because getting turned inside out by a more experienced opposite number in the pack can leave a player with his head spinning, wondering how he's getting cheated out of playing, time and time again throughout a match. Frustration builds and penalties abound.

In terms of squad building, I'd be focusing on the forwards, the scrum, and life after POC. The back line has enough people putting their hands up, and the depth of talent is good. Forwards need far more games for us to see if they can cut it.

Podge_irl

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

He should definitely be part of the squad but it's definitely time to start looking for a replacement in the starting team. Also, it's about time someone else got a chance.

You shouldn't get a chance without earning it and you earn it by playing as well as or better than the guy in the jersey. No one has done that.

If he was in any other international team he would have been dropped a few years ago when he went into decline.

Any other team? Really?

A few years ago he would have started for every single NH team. Hell, this year he would have been heavily involved in most (hence starting two lions tests....)

irishbucsfan

I'd be disappointed in Schmidt if he didn't give someone else a run at 13 soon. Darren Cave wasn't great at times last season but if he is playing at his best at the beginning of this season I'd like to see him play one of the AIs. Possibly the last one.

Teferi

.ak wrote: »

I'd rather if BOD was to go into coaching that he'd learn his trade elsewhere. Like France, Aus or NZ.

+1.

If he has an interest in coaching then he has to earn his stripes from the bottom up, maybe do a season or two abroad. Anything else is pulling a Martin Johnson and we know how that turned out. The best pro's do not necessarily make the best coaches.

BBDBB

Of course he should, Gatlands infallible doncha know

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

The fact he is the best 13 we have shouldn't matter.

Kidney got criticism in the past for not looking forward. BOD should not play unless he absolutely needs to. His time is coming to an end, it's time to figure out who will replace him.

Kidney got criticism for selecting "old guard" players when they weren't the best players in their positions. ROG ahead of Madigan/Jackson, DOC ahead of Ryan, Leamy ahead of SOB etc. It doesn't matter what age someone is, if they are the best person for the job then they are the best person. Be they 20 or 35.

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

That's quite an insight, and a quality of article that's rare.

However, it includes an implicit criticism of BOD, so don your tin foil hats!

To me it reflect worse on Davies than BOD. BOD barking orders is one thing, Davies "shrivelling" is another. I'd be more inclined to believe that article was written by a hack that doesn't have any insider knowledge and is just making it up as he goes.

Teferi wrote: »

+1.

If he has an interest in coaching then he has to earn his stripes from the bottom up, maybe do a season or two abroad. Anything else is pulling a Martin Johnson and we know how that turned out. The best pro's do not necessarily make the best coaches.

I'd completely agree with this. But I reckon he'll be going into punditry.

BOD should stay on and we should start looking at replacements in the summer. We need to get into gear quickly in the AIs as all 3 games are seriously tough. Mucking about with your outside centre position when the best player with a history of working closely with the head coach is available doesn't make much sense to me. We need to target the ABs and the 6Ns. It's important to get back to winning ways fairly quickly.

As for a replacement I do think Darren Cave is underrated. I would like to see him given a shot under Joe. He's not the quickest, but neither is BOD. He does have neat hands, runs good lines and could work very well with an inside centre like Marshall or Olding.

justsomebloke

ye if BOD was to become a coach I would prefer it to start somewhere else. Just because he was a fantastic player doesn't necessarily mean that he is going to be a great coach, if anything more often then not it can mean the opposite. As due to the fact that everything came so easy to him it can be frustrating when he has to deal with people where it doesn't.

But truthfully I think he will become a pundit or follow Amy, but it will probably be the latter as I don't think he is a great pundit and I think Amy will want to advance her career and may want them to go to LA.

Superbus

MugMugs wrote: »

and Madigan at 11.

jm08

A big ask IBF - The last game is NZ! I'd say BOD will be starting that one anyway!

The problem with both BOD & Cave is that they are not good benchers in that they don't play in any of the outside back positions.

Mahatma Geansai

BOD is a great defender and capable of moments of genius, but we would benefit from having a good attacking 13 again. People seem to forget that BOD in his early years wasn't much of a passer and it was only with time that he became a great all-round player he is/was. He is a bit of a golden cow who can do no wrong. The nation-wide outrage over his dropping goes to show that any impartiality when he is concerned is an impossibility.

When Earls doesn't pass to BOD 40m out from the try-line after creating the opportunity himself: outrage. When BOD doesn't pass to Earls 5m out and stops a certain try: nothing.

We need to develop alternatives to BOD. Hopefully Schmidt is able to do it, because going into the RWC with only a year to find a replacement is horrible planning, but its the road we're going down.

molloyjh

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

BOD is a great defender and capable of moments of genius, but we would benefit from having a good attacking 13 again. People seem to forget that BOD in his early years wasn't much of a passer and it was only with time that he became a great all-round player he is/was. He is a bit of a golden cow who can do no wrong. The nation-wide outrage over his dropping goes to show that any impartiality when he is concerned is an impossibility.

When Earls doesn't pass to BOD 40m out from the try-line after creating the opportunity himself: outrage. When BOD doesn't pass to Earls 5m out and stops a certain try: nothing.

We need to develop alternatives to BOD. Hopefully Schmidt is able to do it, because going into the RWC with only a year to find a replacement is horrible planning, but its the road we're going down.

Maybe it's just me but I don't judge our success based on the RWC. I don't see us winning that competition any time soon, where-as the 6Ns is well within our grasp. I'd rather we focused on the competition we can win than get all caught up on the competition we realistically won't win 2 years before we don't win it.

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but I don't judge our success based on the RWC. I don't see us winning that competition any time soon, where-as the 6Ns is well within our grasp. I'd rather we focused on the competition we can win than get all caught up on the competition we realistically won't win 2 years before we don't win it.

Buts it not just about focussing an any particular competition (though I think we could do well in the next one with the draw we have and the fact that its in England), but there are some key players in the team which can seriously affect the team performance if they get injured and not being able to replace them with experienced cover (for example, Sexton in the last 6Ns). As the player who organises the defence, BOD is one of those players and there needs to be a player who can step in there without making a huge difference.

Kayless

Let’s just put Sexton at 13

No really I have to agree I'm not big on the idea of trying to turn wingers into 13s but in terms of pure talent ect I reckon Fitz would make a great 13

remember this?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Kayless wrote: »

Let’s just put Sexton at 13

No really I have to agree I'm not big on the idea of trying to turn wingers into 13s but in terms of pure talent ect I reckon Fitz would make a great 13

remember this?

Highlights just how wasted Sexton was for the vast majority of the Lions tour by "Gatty" :rolleyes:

bilston

Kayless wrote: »

Let’s just put Sexton at 13

No really I have to agree I'm not big on the idea of trying to turn wingers into 13s but in terms of pure talent ect I reckon Fitz would make a great 13

remember this?

As much as I appreciate getting to watch a try of that quality again I'm not sure it has much relevance to how Fitz would go in the centre. Is he not running a wingers line off 10? Anyway lovely hands by Sexton though! And for the record I think Fitzgerald has the raw materials to make a good 13.

As for this season I've already said that BOD should play if he remains the best 13 in Ireland (which he does), but I would be looking to play someone else against Samoa, apart from anything else we need BOD fresh for Australia and New Zealand. As for who that should be, well it's hard to say. Earls, Cave and McFadden are probably the favourites. Bowe could be tested in midfield and that in itself would allow someone like Gilroy to get a run on the wing or maybe Schmidt will go all out and throw Olding or Henshaw in at 13, although how much have either played at 13 at pro level?

astonaidan

At Leinster tbf its easier to introduce young talent, as when the internationals are on he can try them out in a weakened league.
Where in the H.C he mostly stuck to the old boys.
Anyways back to my favourite game of seeing how much times ROG comes up in a thread no way related to him

jamiedav2011

astonaidan wrote: »

At Leinster tbf its easier to introduce young talent, as when the internationals are on he can try them out in a weakened league.
Where in the H.C he mostly stuck to the old boys.
Anyways back to my favourite game of seeing how much times ROG comes up in a thread no way related to him

There's one anyway.

jamiedav2011

Would definitely love to see Fitz given a chance at 13, though maybe there's a reason he hasn't been played there before for an extended period. For me his skillset is more suited to 13 than a winger, vice versa with Earls.

Don't think Marshall would suit 13, more of a 12 for me, and not sure Cave is good enough to go up against top level centres, though definitely a very good player.

Really hope he gets back to full fitness this year, would be an enormous asset for club and country.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

To me it reflect worse on Davies than BOD. BOD barking orders is one thing, Davies "shrivelling" is another. I'd be more inclined to believe that article was written by a hack that doesn't have any insider knowledge and is just making it up as he goes.

...

As for a replacement I do think Darren Cave is underrated. I would like to see him given a shot under Joe. He's not the quickest, but neither is BOD. He does have neat hands, runs good lines and could work very well with an inside centre like Marshall or Olding.

"He then dropped O'Driscoll because he thought the senior statesman was cowing the men inside him. Gatland wanted Sexton to step up".

That's a factual statemnt - that's not "Gatland probably wanted..." or "it must have seemed logical that..." So unless the writer has no journalistic standards at all, that's come from Gatland. And does the need to drop BOD reflect worse on Sexton the same way it reflects worse on Davies, in your opinion?

I don't really want to get into this - I would have started BOD, the win hasn't vindicated Gatland's decision.. but the handwringing and wailing about any precieved slight to BOD is tedious (not aimed at you, Molloy).



As a Cave fan, I was disappointed in his North American tour. As I have been pretty much every time he plays internationally.

I was in the process of writing him off, and I decided to look up who he's played with for his five caps.

He has started with Ian Whitten twice (for Whitten's first and second caps), with Stuart Olding (for his first cap) and James Downey (for his first cap).

Let's leave aside, for a moment, his seven minutes at the end for a well-beaten Ireland side against New Zealand last summer. If we do, he has never played for Ireland with O'Gara, or Heaslip, or O'Brien, or Reddan, or Kearney.

Let's include those seven minutes. He has still never played (for Ireland) with Healy, POC, Ferris, Murray, Sexton, D'Arcy, Fitzgerald, Bowe.

Cave has never gotten a crack with anything other than a second-choice team roped together to beat second-tier nations. I think he deserves more of a chance to stake a claim. He's not BOD - we know that. However, unless we want to ask other teams to play fourteen-aside after BOD retires, we may get our collective head around the fact that our next OC won't be nearly as good, no matter who he is.

If we don't start blooding someone now, occasionally, in games that matter, when BOD retires we will have a new OC who only not isn't nearly as good, but whose flaws will be exacerbated by massive inexperience. And god help them.