The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

Mr Freeze

Paddy Cow wrote: »

He wouldn't have to. Most babies look the same and as long as the general features such as hair colour are the same, it would probably pass. I mean, would Tywin even know that the baby was supposed to look like? It's not like they had DNA sampling back then!

He would know Targaryen features, if the features were left intact to be examined. If Aegon had Targ features that is, since his mother was of Dorne, he mightn't have looked totally Targaryen.

Yet, the Aegon in ADWD looks Targaryen according to Tyrion.

Kunkka

Mr Freeze wrote: »

He would know Targaryen features, if the features were left intact to be examined. If Aegon had Targ features that is, since his mother was of Dorne, he mightn't have looked totally Targaryen.

Yet, the Aegon in ADWD looks Targaryen according to Tyrion.

I think "Aegon" does have Targaryen blood through another line but he isn't actually Aegon.

Mr Freeze

Kunkka wrote: »

I think "Aegon" does have Targaryen blood through another line but he isn't actually Aegon.

The female Blackfyre line as a few have stated already most likely.

Kunkka

Mr Freeze wrote: »

The female Blackfyre line as a few have stated already most likely.

Yep, wouldn't surprise me if Illyrio or Vary's was the father too. Obviously under the presumptuous that Vary's actually wasn't snipped of course. Or is a bald woman with manly features and is actually the mother..... that would be pretty funny show wise.

beardedmaster

I must be one of the few that thinks Aegon is actually Aegon.

intellectual dosser

beardedmaster wrote: »

I must be one of the few that thinks Aegon is actually Aegon.

I'm with you!

To be honest most of the people on this thread and elsewhere can be extremely convincing...so I reserve the right to change my mind!

Paddy Cow

Kunkka wrote: »

Yep, wouldn't surprise me if Illyrio or Vary's was the father too. Obviously under the presumptuous that Vary's actually wasn't snipped of course. Or is a bald woman with manly features and is actually the mother..... that would be pretty funny show wise.

Vary's was definitely snipped. He spent years hunting down the guy responsible and finally had him in a box in his room, ready to exact his revenge.

GerB40

beardedmaster wrote: »

I must be one of the few that thinks Aegon is actually Aegon.

I reckon he is too.

Mr Freeze

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Vary's was definitely snipped. He spent years hunting down the guy responsible and finally had him in a box in his room, ready to exact his revenge.

Wasn't that only in the show? The bit with the man in the box I mean.
Did that happen in the books too?

Cause in the show, he looks to be snipped alrite, Ros having a feel and nowt there.

But in the books I always suspected that Varys the eunuch was just another one of his disguises and may actually not be a eunuch.

Was there someone who saw him with stubble at some stage, now that could well have been another disguise, but I remember them thinking that is was quite convincing.

Turtyturd

Almost certain it mentions it in the books but Varys got his revenge before the events of the book so it was never seen.

I am also one of the Aegon believers but as I outlined a few pages back it's based more on Martins way of writing it than anything that has actually been written.

Mr Freeze

Turtyturd wrote: »

Almost certain it mentions it in the books but Varys got his revenge before the events of the book so it was never seen.

I can find no reference to that ever been in the books.

I remember it was a total surprise to me when I saw it on TV.

Same on the Forum of Ice and Fire, book readers were surprised with the guy in the box scene.

TimeToShine

It's not in the books (the man in the box). It was probably just a plot tool to show the viewer how capable and dangerous Varys is. I'd take the fact that he's a eunuch to be true anyway. D&D definitely know more about the series than we do, and it would be a completely pointless twist. If anything it would undermine his character because he's probably the only one who has been shown to act with his head and only his head. Even Littlefinger lets his urges cloud his judgement to some extent and it will probably be his undoing in the end, and perhaps it's the only thing getting really separating himself and Varys.

Tom.D.BJJ

Mr Freeze wrote: »

But in the books I always suspected that Varys the eunuch was just another one of his disguises and may actually not be a eunuch.

A Clash of King Chapter 44 is where he talks about being cut.

He does use various disguises though, as noted by Ned and Tyrion

Sleepy

TimeToShine wrote: »

Even Littlefinger lets his urges cloud his judgement to some extent and it will probably be his undoing in the end, and perhaps it's the only thing getting really separating himself and Varys.

I think their motivations are extremely different too. Littlefinger is really only concerned with advancing his own interests (to the extent he'll help plummet Westeros into a civil war in order to take advantage of the opportunities war presents) whereas Varys genuinely seems to be motivated by the "good of the realm" (Aegon having been groomed to be a "ruler of the people" rather than another Targaryen / Lannister tyrant.

TimeToShine

Sleepy wrote: »

I think their motivations are extremely different too. Littlefinger is really only concerned with advancing his own interests (to the extent he'll help plummet Westeros into a civil war in order to take advantage of the opportunities war presents) whereas Varys genuinely seems to be motivated by the "good of the realm" (Aegon having been groomed to be a "ruler of the people" rather than another Targaryen / Lannister tyrant.

I agree with you but I think we can't really ascertain that Varys is acting completely out of selflessness until we know the whole story behind Aegon. The fact that he's in league with Illyrio raises a few questions because a man like that didn't get rich by taking the good of those around him (and by extension the realm) into consideration.

Mr Freeze

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

A Clash of King Chapter 44 is where he talks about being cut.

He does use various disguises though, as noted by Ned and Tyrion

I know he definitely talked about being cut, and more than likely is, but nothing he says can be fully trusted, hence the bit of doubt I have about him.

nerd69

Sleepy wrote: »

I think their motivations are extremely different too. Littlefinger is really only concerned with advancing his own interests (to the extent he'll help plummet Westeros into a civil war in order to take advantage of the opportunities war presents) whereas Varys genuinely seems to be motivated by the "good of the realm" (Aegon having been groomed to be a "ruler of the people" rather than another Targaryen / Lannister tyrant.

a lot of people say this but its not something iv ever believed why would a person from a foreign country come in and care for the realm over all else. sure he's said it but to take varys at face value means he has you in his pocket as far as im concerned. i think it will be reviled that as well as aegon he's got a few more schemes under his sleeves to put his people in power and in turn grant him the power i feel he desires without the fame that makes him a target.

(although i may have forgotten some stuff the books are long overdue a reread)

Mr Freeze

I think Varys is still very loyal to the Targaryens. So much so, he would create a fake one to have the throne instead of any one else.

I don't believe the realm is his primary concern.

padraig.od

Aegon is either Perkin Warbeck (an imposter) or Charles Stuart (raised abroad, and groomed for kingship). I don't expect to see him survive TWOW.

Kunkka

padraig.od wrote: »

Aegon is either Perkin Warbeck (an imposter) or Charles Stuart (raised abroad, and groomed for kingship). I don't expect to see him survive TWOW.

+1

I do see Connington surviving a little longer then him though.

Duckworth_Luas

padraig.od wrote: »

Aegon is either Perkin Warbeck (an imposter) or Charles Stuart (raised abroad, and groomed for kingship). I don't expect to see him survive TWOW.

Perkin Warbeck was fully aware that he himself was an imposter. Aegon does not and, like both Stuart pretenders, has been raised to believe he is the rightful King.

In my opinion a more likely historical source for Aegon is Lambert Simnel, an innocent dupe.

Paddy Cow

Kunkka wrote: »

+1

I do see Connington surviving a little longer then him though.

As long as the greyscale doesn't kill him.

Paddy Cow

Mr Freeze wrote: »

I think Varys is still very loyal to the Targaryens. So much so, he would create a fake one to have the throne instead of any one else.

I don't believe the realm is his primary concern.

Vary's is a funny one to work out. He says he cares about the realm, yet the last Targaryen to rule was a complete nut job who wanted to blast the whole of Kings Landing to smithereens. It's always been a 50/50 toss up whether the ruling Targaryen would be normal or mad.

GerB40

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Perkin Warbeck was fully aware that he himself was an imposter. Aegon does not and, like both Stuart pretenders, has been raised to believe he is the rightful King.

In my opinion a more likely historical source for Aegon is Lambert Simnel, an innocent dupe.

Dafuq ye talkin about??

TimeToShine

GerB40 wrote: »

Dafuq ye talkin about??

A load of people are claiming that GRRM has essentially ripped of some early modern history for his tale and are trying (successfully in some cases) to liken some of his characters to those documented back then.

GerB40

TimeToShine wrote: »

A load of people are claiming that GRRM has essentially ripped of some early modern history for his tale and are trying (successfully in some cases) to liken some of his characters to those documented back then.

Oh right. The red wedding was based on something that actually happened in Scotland. I think it was called the black supper. Reading ye're comments I thought I missed these Stuart characters on both reads..

Duckworth_Luas

GerB40 wrote: »

Dafuq ye talkin about??

Aegon is fake.


You had the War of the Five Kings and what remains of Renly's, Robb Stark's, Balon Greyjoy's and Stannis' forces are now in the North. What is to stop King's Landing sending a force there to wipe out the last remaining rebels?

Martin's answer is to introduce a new character Aegon and his invasion of the South. This invasion will tie up the Lannister's and their loyalists while events in the North are allowed to play out without outside intervention.

In the end I think Stannis will be at the head of some sort of coalition of Baratheons, wildlings, Rickon Stark loyalists and Asha Greyjoy Iron Islanders. He will then look south again to a weakened King's landing.

Eventually Aegon will be defeated and captured by the Lannisters, Tyrells etc. He will be revealed as a fraud. People like Jon Connington will be executed for treason but, as he is an innocent dupe, Aegon will be spared and sent to the wall, see historic example mentioned above.

Jon Snow is gone, not dead but his story line will move on from being in the Night's Watch. A new POV is needed at the Wall. Aegon will provide this and also an interesting sub-plot of a guy going from prince to pauper.

So you'll have Jon Snow on some sort of voyage of self discovery. Bran Stark on a voyage of discovering the real pre-history of Westeros. Stannis finally victorious in the War of the Five Kings, at King's Landing and sitting in his rightful place, the Iron Throne.

Then, from Essos a new threat arrives, a bona fide Targaryen princess with three dragons and a dwarf. While at the Wall the fake Targaryen is coming to terms with who he really is when he hears three horn blows!


tl;dr Aegon is fake and a plot device to clean up events in Westeros prior to White Walkers/dragons etc arriving.

Holy Hand Grenade

Hey guys, Idk if this has been discussed before, but do you think The Hound is going to play any important role in the last books (of course, if he is indeed the gravedigger at Quiet Island)? Or you think George Martin just gave all those hints to leave it open to whatever the reader believes happened to him (btw this doesn't sound like GRRM imo)?

GerB40

Holy Hand Grenade wrote: »

Hey guys, Idk if this has been discussed before, but do you think The Hound is going to play any important role in the last books (of course, if he is indeed the gravedigger at Quiet Island)? Or you think George Martin just gave all those hints to leave it open to whatever the reader believes happened to him (btw this doesn't sound like GRRM imo)?

I reckon when the the septon told Brienne "The Hound us dead, Sandor Clegane is at peace" (something along those lines) Martin was telling us that The Hound has repented for his sins, effectively killing the evil in him (the part that got him known as The Hound) and that part of his penance is servitude to the seven as the innocent, sin free, Sandor Clegane. If he has any part to play in future books I'd imagine it'll be as Sandor (version 2, the innocent) rather that The Hound (aggressive, violent, hard man).


Now that I think about it, he would make a great champion for the seven (a la Robert Strong) should they have need for one..

TimeToShine

GerB40 wrote: »

Now that I think about it, he would make a great champion for the seven (a la Robert Strong) should they have need for one..

Which would make sense in the context of Maggies prophecy if he wins.