The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

Mr Freeze

The Winds of Winters isn't out yet, and might not be for years yet, but that can't stop us talking about it and its sample chapters, and making our own predictions.

This thread is for discussion of The Winds of Winter, in particular the spoiler material available through chapter readings at conventions, etc.

General discussion about the book series, including general speculation about what characters might do in future, how the series might end, etc. is welcome here also.

No need for spoiler tags here, if you haven't read all books and/or the sample chapters released, dread softly.

Mr Freeze

Sample Chapters:
Victarion
Arianne
Barristan
Theon
Mercy

Post 15 on the Barristan one is definitely worth a full read! I loved his chapters in ADWD and it looks like he's going to have more in WOW. With the Iron Fleet arriving I wonder how that is going to go down along with Tyrion's arrival. I think Barristan might know of Tyrion's true heritage if anyone(if that's what GRRM is planning)& he could reveal that very early in the books. Otherwise Dany has no choice but to execute a Lannister? I know he killed Tywin but still Tyrion has to have something protecting him to get through this book.

Mr Freeze

From the Barriston Reading:

[GRRM pointed out that these were, of course, Victarion's men and made a comment about Tyrion currently being quite miserable.]

I like this, I am guessing that after all Tyrion's dealings with the sellswords, and things beginning to look up for him, Victarion lands, and smashes them.

Ya, can definitely see Tyrion ending up as Barriston's prisoner.

Son0vagun

Deleted User wrote: »

I know he killed Tywin but still Tyrion has to have something protecting him to get through this book.

Ah but did he really kill Tywin? If he did, that would make him Kinslayer and cursed in the eyes of the Gods. He was merely putting Tywin out of his misery!

From want I heard, TWoW starts with a huge battle that rages on for 100s of pages. GRRM spoke to Bernard Cornwell about writing such scenes. Ser Barriston and Victorion are the best PoV to do this! I haven't read any sample chapters apart from Theons!

Mr Freeze

Son0vagun wrote: »

From want I heard, TWoW starts with a huge battle that rages on for 100s of pages.

That sounds brilliant...

No way is the battle in Meereen going to sorted in a few chapters, it could go on for ages, and rightly so, it definitely needs to liven up.

The Barriston sample chapters describe some of the battle, worth a read, its only a summary of what Martin read out at some show, buts its a great preview of how the Battle in Meereen is going to go down.

Mr Freeze

Mr Freeze wrote: »

buts its a great preview of how the Battle in Meereen is going to go down.

And how ****ing cool Barry is!

Mr Freeze

Deleted User wrote: »

And how ****ing cool Barry is!

He was a lot cooler before you called him "Barry". :pac:

Ya, he is class.
Some POV character isn't going to survive this Meereen battle, I suspect Barriston will not leave Meereen.

Mr Freeze

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Ya, he is class.
Some POV character isn't going to survive this Meereen battle, I suspect Barriston will not leave Meereen.

You might well be right but I hope not. From those two chapters GRRM really is building him up for a fall isn't he.... It would be great to see him going back to Westeros and fighting Jamie at some point. I do agree though someone in Mereen has to go, I don't see them killing off another new character quickly so it's going to be Tyrion, Dany or Barristan isn't it? Can't see GRRM getting rid of his favorite character now or Dany... let's hope we're wrong but other forums all think the same thing. Could we not get away with it being Penny? :pac:

Gbear

Victarion seemed kinda pointless. Yeah, he was a badass, but we have a good few of them in the books.

Having his hand seared off and replaced with some sort of superstrong skeletal demon-hand could set some interesting things in motion though.

It's quite clear that if he tries to take Dany by force she'll **** him up good and proper, or rather Drogon will. In general I don't think that the way of the Iron Born (the Iron Way, the Iron Price, something like that), is compatible with Dany's "free all the slaves" motto.
Also, Euron's wizard could be Pyat Pree so clearly that would set him against Dany.


I'd be astonished if he dragged Tyrion half way across the world just to kill him.

They can have maybe 3 POV's in Dany's entourage, including Dany. They've done that before. They might also stop being POV for some characters. Dunno has GRRM done that before (deaths notwithstanding).

Mr Freeze

Gbear wrote: »

I'd be astonished if he dragged Tyrion half way across the world just to kill him.

They can have maybe 3 POV's in Dany's entourage, including Dany. They've done that before. They might also stop being POV for some characters. Dunno has GRRM done that before (deaths notwithstanding).

Tyrion is probably safe. Victarion & Barriston are not, unless GRRMs comment about, when a character gets a named chapter, it means something. (like you definitely aren't safe when you get named chapter).

Looks like Victarion & Barriston are getting named chapters in TWOW.

POV characters that I fully expect to die in the next book are Theon, Victarion & Barriston.

He has said that he needs to start killing characters, that he has too many POVs.

Walt Grace

I hope GRRM kills off all the Iron born! :rolleyes:
Just have never liked their chapters, right from the beginning.

Walt Grace

Walt Grace wrote: »

I hope GRRM kills off all the Iron born! :rolleyes:
Just have never liked their chapters, right from the beginning.

I think he plans to do the opposite as he loves the shock factor. We shall see anyway

Mr Freeze

Walt Grace wrote: »

I hope GRRM kills off all the Iron born! :rolleyes:
Just have never liked their chapters, right from the beginning.

There will be loads of POV deaths in book 6 i'd say, but no way will be kill off all the Ironborn, he spent 2 books building up multiple Greyjoy characters, they are around to stay for another book anyways.

I actually can't wait to see what Euron was up to, and if him and Victarion end up clashing.

Walt Grace

Deleted User wrote: »

I think he plans to do the opposite as he loves the shock factor. We shall see anyway

Oh no doubt at the end of the series only all the characters we hate will be alive! :mad:

Here's hoping book 6 is an improvemnet on the previous 2 anyway. If he really does plan to finish the series in 7 he really needs to start putting the end game in place now.

Gbear

Walt Grace wrote: »

Oh no doubt at the end of the series only all the characters we hate will be alive! :mad:

Here's hoping book 6 is an improvemnet on the previous 2 anyway. If he really does plan to finish the series in 7 he really needs to start putting the end game in place now.

There's the bones of a good book between Feast and Dance - if you binned about 3/4 of it.

A few hundred pages could've been saved with less food and boiled leather alone.

Walt Grace

Gbear wrote: »

There's the bones of a good book between Feast and Dance - if you binned about 3/4 of it.

A few hundred pages could've been saved with less food and boiled leather alone.

Dance was a bit better than Feast but still not a patch on the first three.
Really hope GRRM gets back in his groove for the 6th book. Guess maybe he shouldn't have killed off so many of the interesting characters in the first 3 books!

Really great article, enjoy

http://the-artifice.com/the-winds-of-winter-12-major-plot-points-to-anticipate/

Sleepy

One of the best articles I've read on TWOW to date...

Mr.Prodston

Deleted User wrote: »

Really great article, enjoy

http://the-artifice.com/the-winds-of-winter-12-major-plot-points-to-anticipate/

It was genuinely a pleasure to read that, and hard to argue with most of it too.

So did I, glad to share it

I was shocked by how sure he felt that Jon has warged in to ghost & he seems to know what he is talking about... some other great insights but that one shocked me the most. There is so much potential for the WOW....

That forum has been a disaster for me I can't stop reading it in work haha. Another topic about the hound has been very interesting, people on their are nearly 100% he is alive and well, which has me very happy. That bloody grave digger I didn't even cop it myself while reading, the description and the fact he was being described in so much details happened for a reason... Sandor to come back to do good would just be amazing.

All we now is Hodor to be the knight of the faith vs Robert Strong and we're set....

Sleepy

I've read most of the same theories elsewhere and would subscribe to more than a few of them myself. Great to see them all gathered together like that though!

Mr Freeze

Deleted User wrote: »

That bloody grave digger I didn't even cop it myself while reading, the description and the fact he was being described in so much details happened for a reason... Sandor to come back to do good would just be amazing.

Brilliant Article, indeed.

Ya, copped that at the time about The Hound, the description is very hound like(if you want it to be, could also be nothing). There is even a dog beside the grave digger in that chapter.

The other thing I noticed was they had The Hounds horse, that horse was wild and only he could control it, so those brothers wouldn't have been fit to catch and bring the horse back with out The Hound (we can assume).

From the article, the authors dislike for Jon was a surprise. I really hope the warging theory isn't true, I'd much prefer him not to die from the wounds. Don't know where the Melisandre is an undead theory came from, never picked up on that at all.

Daenerys, the obvious thing is that she makes it back to Westeros with her army and dragons and fights the White Walkers, but GRRM doesn't do obvious, do you think she might not back it back at all? or only as far as Braavos to where she grew up?

It would seem like a massive waste of pages if she doesn't have some part to play in Westeros.

I think this book is going to be an absolute bloodbath. There will be nothing like it in fiction and I truly think it will be so epic that most of us will get through the book very quickly because of the sheer pace of it. I think it might be better to look it from the perspective of who will live(or has to with the amount of effort put in to where they are now);

Bran - An obvious one I see him being there until the very end. I have loved his chapters ever since the first book when he is waking up after the fall. I believe the company Bran is currently with are actually on the side of the Others. I also think Benjen will pop up here at some point too be it as Coldhands or whoever.

Hodor - Hodor

Jon - I really think Jon is going to or has warged in to ghost. They have talked about it so much in the books that it makes sense for it to happen to one of the main characters. After he has done this I can see him meeting up with Bran at some point.

Jaime - I just can't see him being killed off with the redemption he has shown. All those mentions of his sparring with Payne make me believe that he has a big duel coming up and it will probably be against Brienne who he will kill. Again I think he'll be there until the end.

Tyrion - GRRM's favorite character and with the story the way it is he surely has to return to Westeros to claim the Rock. I do believe he will meet Jaime again at some point too.

Danery's - I believe she will take back the Iron Throne. I think there will be a few twists along the way but I think she is the one to be sitting on the throne when the final battle with the Others happen.

Victorian - I can see him taking Danery's back to Westeros, I know that might be too obvious but it's the only thing that makes any sense. I also think he will kill Barristan in this book as much as it saddens me . I think after getting Dany back to Westeros he will be return to the Iron Islands where a huge battle will happen amongst the Ironborn, with Aeron claiming victory with the introduction of krakens or an alliance with the others. **** will go down there anyway, it has to otherwise the whole part of the story is pointless!

Sansa - I can see her being there until the end and I think she will kill Petyr or have him killed after telling the truth about what happened to Lysa.

Ayra - I can see her coming back to Westeros. I think she'll go to Kings Landing, all the chapters in book 1 where she learns her way around the tunnel systems will be some assistance to an assassin, that could be pretty cool if GRRM goes down this route.

Arianne - She'l join up with Aegon and I can see a battle between Dorne and the Reach happening in the next book which Aegon will be killed in maybe by Loras(if his injuries aren't as genuine as a lot think). I can see the Tyrells being wiped off the face of Westeros.

I see anyone else as expendable and could easily die in this book. Either way I really think this book might well be the best of the series, here's hoping! Winter is coming

Mr Freeze

Deleted User wrote: »

Arianne - She'l join up with Aegon and I can see a battle between Dorne and the Reach happening in the next book which Aegon will be killed in maybe by Loras(if his injuries aren't as genuine as a lot think). I can see the Tyrells being wiped off the face of Westeros.

Before or after Cersei's death or end in the series?

I would hate for her to be around to see the end of the Tyrells.

Mr Freeze

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Before or after Cersei's death or end in the series?

I would hate for her to be around to see the end of the Tyrells.

After, I can actually see Robert Strong losing the trial by combat or him winning and then revealing he's actually dead which makes the High Septon sentence her to death anyway. Being beheaded in the same spot poor Ned was

Mr Freeze

Deleted User wrote: »

After, I can actually see Robert Strong losing the trial by combat or him winning and then revealing he's actually dead which makes the High Septon sentence her to death anyway. Being beheaded in the same spot poor Ned

I'd subscribe to that.

Gbear

Deleted User wrote: »

Jon - I really think Jon is going to or has warged in to ghost. They have talked about it so much in the books that it makes sense for it to happen to one of the main characters. After he has done this I can see him meeting up with Bran at some point.

I was thinking about him (being in the process of reading his last chapter) and Coldhands.

Could the solution lie perhaps in Jon dying, warging into Ghost and then back into his body after it is reanimated as a wight?

Could Coldhands be the body of some wight that someone commandeered as they died? Maybe Benjen? Although I'd imagine that if Coldhands was Benjen, either physically or the warged consciousness I don't see why he wouldn't have revealed himself to Bran.

Deleted User wrote: »

After, I can actually see Robert Strong losing the trial by combat or him winning and then revealing he's actually dead which makes the High Septon sentence her to death anyway. Being beheaded in the same spot poor Ned was

Well isn't there still the whole prophecy about getting killed by who she thinks is Tyrion but it could be anyone I suppose (given the nature of prophecies) and isn't another part of it that her children will all die before her?

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

I was thinking about him (being in the process of reading his last chapter) and Coldhands.

Could the solution lie perhaps in Jon dying, warging into Ghost and then back into his body after it is reanimated as a wight?

Could Coldhands be the body of some wight that someone commandeered as they died? Maybe Benjen? Although I'd imagine that if Coldhands was Benjen, either physically or the warged consciousness I don't see why he wouldn't have revealed himself to Bran.



Well isn't there still the whole prophecy about getting killed by who she thinks is Tyrion but it could be anyone I suppose (given the nature of prophecies) and isn't another part of it that her children will all die before her?

No doubt there is holes throughout my theories but that's just came to the top of my head when doing an overview of what I think will happen. I don't see Cersei lasting much longer at all so yeah something could happen to her children as the prophecy stated.

December2012

Gbear wrote: »

I was thinking about him (being in the process of reading his last chapter) and Coldhands.

Could the solution lie perhaps in Jon dying, warging into Ghost and then back into his body after it is reanimated as a wight?

Could Coldhands be the body of some wight that someone commandeered as they died? Maybe Benjen? Although I'd imagine that if Coldhands was Benjen, either physically or the warged consciousness I don't see why he wouldn't have revealed himself to Bran.



Well isn't there still the whole prophecy about getting killed by who she thinks is Tyrion but it could be anyone I suppose (given the nature of prophecies) and isn't another part of it that her children will all die before her?

It is prophesied that Cersei will be killed by her younger brother and that's why she hates and fears Tyrion.

It should be noted that Jaime was born after her.........

podgemonster

December2012 wrote: »

It is prophesied that Cersei will be killed by her younger brother and that's why she hates and fears Tyrion.

It should be noted that Jaime was born after her.........

Yes pretty sure Jaime will kill her. I believe she is close to madness by the end of Dance and her mental instability will immediately undo all the good work Kevan has done and playing right into Varys hands.

I think Jaime with a heavy heart will do her great mercy and smother her before she destroys the realm.

This would however would require Jaime to somehow escape Stonehearts trap, hopefully by showing that he is no longer the smug knight he once was and through his actions in feast prove to Stoneheart he is a changed man.

More than likely i think Brienne in a mirror of Jaime actions to stab the mad king will kill Stoneheart to echo the sentiment that some oaths should be broken to protect the innocent when the person you serve has become corrupted. Also I think Podrick is still alive.

TheKeenMachine

I came up with a theory last night about Cersei's trial in AWOW (it's probably been mentioned somewhere online already but anyway) - presuming that Ser Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane and the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle is The Hound, I think Martin is setting up Cersei's trial by combat to be a face off between the Clegane brothers with Sandor chosen as the champion of the faith.

There is a bit of foreshadowing in the earlier books IIRC - Sandor hates Gregor and wants to kill him. Tbh I was a bit disappointed when both died without Sandor's revenge happening

Thoughts?

Sleepy

I love the idea of it but something tells me The Hound is at peace on the island and GRRM is going to leave him there.

Mr Freeze

ya, wouldn't mind seeing the Hound and Gregorstein/Robert Strong do battle. I just don't see how they get the Hound from where ever he is now to Kings Landing, and fighting on the side of the faith, if he is indeed alive that is.

Probably no need for spoilers here either, the title should ward off anyone not up to date.

@podgemonster
Ya, I remember thinking at the time of reading, that Jamie could be the Valonqar, as it is stated numerous times, that Cersei was the first twin born.

hidinginthebush

I came across the theory over on Reddit that the Hound will fight Robert Strong in Cersei's trial, the extra caveat here is that Robert Strong can only be killed by fire, we all know how the hound feels about fire, so that could be an interesting one. I want to hound to remain in peace though. He seems to be seeing out his time digging graves, I think they would do best to leave him well alone.

Also, to anyone considering a re-read, I'd highly recommend splitting books 4 and 5 up. There's a few guides knocking about on how to order the chapters so the story flows a lot better. I did recently and was surprised at how easily I got through the last two, I remember being almost bored to tears reading Dance the first time.

December2012

I'm sad that the Hound didn't get a better send off so I would love it if he was still alive.

hidinginthebush

December2012 wrote: »

I'm sad that the Hound didn't get a better send off so I would love it if he was still alive.

He's deffo still alive. Were told the hound is "at peace" or something like that. And the gravedigger limps around, showing evidence of the injuries the hound last sustained.

Mr Freeze

hidinginthebush wrote: »

He's deffo still alive. Were told the hound is "at peace" or something like that. And the gravedigger limps around, showing evidence of the injuries the hound last sustained.

This could well be his end in the story. I can't see him coming back into it.

Gbear

One thing I was wondering about - the Sand Snakes are heading to King's Landing.
While the one that's going to embed herself with the Faith can hide there, it's not as if the one that's supposed to join the Small Council can hide.

So what will Doran do about Aegon if he's after sending one of the Sand Snakes to Kings Landing to basically be a hostage?
Will he recall her?

hidinginthebush

Gbear wrote: »

One thing I was wondering about - the Sand Snakes are heading to King's Landing.
While the one that's going to embed herself with the Faith can hide there, it's not as if the one that's supposed to join the Small Council can hide.

So what will Doran do about Aegon if he's after sending one of the Sand Snakes to Kings Landing to basically be a hostage?
Will he recall her?

He might try to still honour the marriage pact that was originally to be Arianne and Viscerys, then Quentyn and Danerys, and propose Aegon marry Arianne. Being still raw about Elia's death, I reckon he won't hesitate in joining up wit the golden company to piss all over the Lannister's parade.

Gbear

hidinginthebush wrote: »

He might try to still honour the marriage pact that was originally to be Arianne and Viscerys, then Quentyn and Danerys, and propose Aegon marry Arianne. Being still raw about Elia's death, I reckon he won't hesitate in joining up wit the golden company to piss all over the Lannister's parade.

Yeah, that's what I was assuming too.
Especially seeing as they appeared to have conquered the Stormlands or are about to when they take Storms End.
Presumably that'll be the end of the Baratheons. Jon Con seems happy enough with Griffon's Roost. Giving Harry Striklands Storm's End and making him overlord of the Storm Lands seems like a bit much. So I wonder what they'll do with it.

But I wonder what that means for the Sand Snakes on route to KL? Or maybe they haven't left yet.
It's hard to keep track of them - one's with Areo Hotah and Balon Swann to deal with Darkstar, one is "Alleras the Sphinx" in the Citadel (Don't get using an anagram. Why not just call herself Bob or whatever?), one's going to join the Faith and one's gone to take Doran's spot on the Small Council.

What are all your opinions of Aegon being a fake? I think he's Illyrio's son from what I've picked up.

Mr.Prodston

Deleted User wrote: »

What are all your opinions of Aegon being a fake? I think he's Illyrio's son from what I've picked up.

I'm kind of subscribed to him being fake but then I think that Jon Connington isn't a man that would knowingly plot against Rhaegar which leaves me perplexed.

All isn't as it seems anyway whatever the catch is I don't know

Mr Freeze

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

I'm kind of subscribed to him being fake but then I think that Jon Connington isn't a man that would knowingly plot against Rhaegar which leaves me perplexed.

If he is a fake, Jon Connington is definitely not in on the plot, and believes he truely is Aegon.

I don't believe he is Aegon, Mummer's Dragon and all that, and especially how it came out of no where.

Aegon probably believes he is the real Aegon too.

Mr.Prodston

Mr Freeze wrote: »

If he is a fake, Jon Connington is definitely not in on the plot, and believes he truely is Aegon.

I don't believe he is Aegon, Mummer's Dragon and all that, and especially how it came out of no where.

Aegon probably believes he is the real Aegon too.

Who "rescued" Aegon though? Back when he was meant to have been murdered? I had in my head that it was Jon but that's not right is it?

I'd go with Connington and "Aegon" not knowing either. There are a few quotes in the books that have me convinced he is Illyrio's. Illyrio says to Tyrion when he is stating what he wants from it all that he has a personal blood debt to pay for getting Aegon the throne or something along those lines. OK that could be that he is just a Targaryen sympathizer but I don't buy that.

But...... then why the **** was he helping Visery's and Dany I really don't know.

Mr Freeze

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Who "rescued" Aegon though? Back when he was meant to have been murdered? I had in my head that it was Jon but that's not right is it?

I don't know how he was rescued or how the plan was hatched.

Some opportunist, could have thought of it 2 - 4 years after Aegon was killed, and found and brain washed a kid that looked believable as a Targaryen, and then searched for some one to help get the Targaryen on the throne, Jon Connington was a good pawn to get, given his loyalty to the Targaryens, especially given his affection for Rhaegar.

December2012

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Who "rescued" Aegon though? Back when he was meant to have been murdered? I had in my head that it was Jon but that's not right is it?

Wasn't it Varys?

Mr Freeze

December2012 wrote: »

Wasn't it Varys?

Had to look it up, it was Varys.

From Wiki:

A young man considering himself to be Aegon explains his apparent survival to Tyrion Lannister. According to his account, the boy killed during the Sack of King's Landing was a Pisswater prince. He had been born at the Pisswater Bend, a street of King's Landing. His father was a tanner, and his mother had died at birth. The tanner sold his boy to Varys for a jug of Arbor gold wine. The man had other sons, but wanted to experience the taste of Arbor gold once in his life. Varys then arranged the swap between the two infant boys. Elia received the Pisswater prince, Varys took custody of the real Aegon. Tyrion Lannister deduces the rest of the story. When the Pisswater prince was "safely dead", Varys smuggled Aegon across the narrow sea. Varys entrusted the boy to Illyrio Mopatis, who in turn found an adoptive father for Aegon in the person of exiled Lord Jon Connington. Aegon does not comment on Tyrion's deductions.

According to the recollection of Jon Connington, he had to fake his own death "twelve years" before the present. In 288 AL, five years following the Battle of the Bells, Varys had convinced him that the lie would be necessary for the safety of Aegon. Connington had spent the "five years" of his exile as a member of the Golden Company, and had become the right-hand man to Myles Toyne. To fulfill Varys' plan, Connington first had to be discharged from the Company in disgrace. The crafted story went that he been stealing from its war chest. Then rumors reported that Connington drank himself to death in Lys. In Varys' words, as a gallant exile Connington would be remembered. But few tend to remember thieves, drunks, and cowards. Reputed to be one of the latter, Connington too would be forgotten. Aegon spend most of his life hiding aboard the poleboat Shy Maid. He shared a cabin with his adoptive father.

Aegon has been trained in matters of military tactics by Jon Connington [30], arms by Rolly Duckfield, in the Faith of the Seven by Septa Lemore, and history and languages by Haldon Halfmaester. He was taught to read and write, and studied history, law, and poetry. He lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swam in rivers, and mended nets. He learned practical things such as washing his own clothes, fishing, cooking, and binding up wounds. He was familiar with hunger, and the fear of being hunted. His education was intended to teach him that kingship was a duty, not a right.

As yet there is no indication as to whether he has inherited the Targaryen propensity for dragon dreams as Daenerys has. He might have the potential for it, like all those with Targaryen blood, but only some members of this bloodline actually displayed this ability.

While this makes sense, what doesn't make sense is; Illyrio never mentioned Aegon to Daenerys and Viserys. Maybe Illyrio never trusted Viserys and never believed he would ever take the Iron Throne, and was probably more likely to get himself and Aegon killed, or kill Aegon.

I just find it had to swallow, that Targaryen supporters had 2 secret plots involving Targaryen heirs at the same time, with Daenerys not knowing of Aegon. Daenerys seems to be really bad at accepting help, The Dornish men for example, when they turned up, it should have been F&%k Meereen, I am off to marry with the Martells and go back to my new armies in Westoros. She might just as easily reject Aegon, if they ever met, but now Aegon is probably a direct threat, as he is gone to take the throne by himself.

December2012

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Had to look it up, it was Varys.

From Wiki:



While this makes sense, what doesn't make sense is; Illyrio never mentioned Aegon to Daenerys and Viserys. Maybe Illyrio never trusted Viserys and never believed he would ever take the Iron Throne, and was probably more likely to get himself and Aegon killed, or kill Aegon.

I just find it had to swallow, that Targaryen supporters had 2 secret plots involving Targaryen heirs at the same time, with Daenerys not knowing of Aegon. Daenerys seems to be really bad at accepting help, The Dornish men for example, when they turned up, it should have been F&%k Meereen, I am off to marry with the Martells and go back to my new armies in Westoros. She might just as easily reject Aegon, if they ever met, but now Aegon is probably a direct threat, as he is gone to take the throne by himself.

But I think the primary plan was always to return Aegon to the throne, possibly while keeping Viserys busy going around begging.

I assume its this
- the plan is for Aegon to return when the time is right.
- when Robert is ruling things are "ok",
- when Robert is dying Illyrio and Varys talk about things being not ready and moving too fast.
- viserys' death was because of his own annoyingness and nothing to do with I&V.
- khal drogo only became interested in Westeros when Robert attempted to assassinate Danaerys - again nothing to do with I&V
- at this stage Aegon is not old enough to seize the throne. He also has no dragons.
- Robert dies and Joffrey takes control bringing some chaos to the realm with the War of the Five Kings.
- stories appear of Dany having dragons
- War rages on, new kings come and go, the faith become militant, Dante shows no indicators that she is coming to Westeros at all
- Aegon says F this, gets some sell swords and decides to claim his throne while the realm is in chaos
- Varys, who last seen helped Tyrion get rid of Tywin, now kills Kevan Lannister and Grand Master "Flash" Pycelle.
- with Cersei to stand trial, the small council changed, it might be felt that now is the right time for Aegon to come and take what's his.

Mr Freeze

December2012 wrote: »

....it might be felt that now is the right time for Aegon to come and take what's his.

If he is Aegon!

Ya I suppose I could buy into the plot of Aegon (real or fake) being the plan all along, and Illyrio just keeping V&D busy for years.

But Viserys dying, and Daenerys getting Dragons and armies, and Westoros in civil war changed everything, if crowning Aegon was the original plan all along.