Croke Park deal to fail

Jawgap

Boombastic wrote: »

I agree with a lot of your reform proposals, but the resistance by the public sector to embrace change will prevent real change from occurring.

That's why you need managers who can actually manage - to borrow a quote from the West Wing there's only two reasons not to do something money and politics - we need to save the money and from this thread I'm guessing there'd be a lot of popular support for reform of the PS......

but

The Unions won't go for it because it would mean a reduction in their membership and the politicians won't go for it because it would mean ditching the political appointees, and in the mean time the rest of us diligently soldier on as best we can.

malibu4u wrote: »

I remember in 2005 , 500 applying for one of 8 jobs in the public sector. Even then demand for jobs in the public sector exceeded supply. there are 2 million people in the private sector. the public sector is not recruiting, or certainly not recruiting enough to take on 2 million people.

Besides the country will end up even broker if extra public servants are taken on.

Best thing is to bring pay in to line with other sectors. Everyone knows the public sector is overpaid and there is huge waste , for example unecessary sickies, slacking, long breaks.

Can't wait to see the evidence posted up to support this one!

malibu4u wrote: »

I know of a number of highly skilled positions that pay double in the public sector compared with the going rate in the private sector.

The taxpayer is being fleeced yet again.

Excellent - I posted up the list of PS jobs, to seeing a similar link to a list of ".....highly skilled positions that pay double in the public sector compared with the going rate in the private sector."

I suppose Matthew Elderfield is taking a paycut to go to Lloyds:rolleyes:

Jawgap

Trigger Happy wrote: »

You are right, I did not see your previous post and looking at it now this is one of the most sensible posts I have seen on this thread (apart from my own of course!).
If the unions and government were up for a head to toe reform of the public service to weed out the rot, correct broken/stupid/non-efficient work practices, centralize cross department services (IT, real estate, cleaning etc) work in true partnership with SMART goals then I would dance from the roof tops because this would achive savings this year and every year and leave us all with a PS that we could be proud of.
But I don't think this will happen. They may pay lip service to it and achieve very little. To many reasons not to 'fix' it will arise.
So the government prefers to use a blunt instrument like pay cuts to get what they need.

SMART? Who very 90s of you

FABRIC is where it should be at now -

• Focused on the organisation’s aims and objectives;
• Appropriate to, and useful for, the stakeholders who are likely to use it;
• Balanced, giving a picture of what the organisation is doing, covering all significant areas of work;
• Robust in order to withstand organisational changes or individuals leaving;
• Integrated into the organisation, being part of the business planning and management processes; and
• Cost Effective

...and to borrow a quote from Sean Connery in the Untouchables, "Everybody knows where the waste is. The problem isn't finding it, the problem is who wants to cross the unions and the politicians."

FG / LAB are as bad Fianna Fail - FF outsourced governing to quangos, FG/LAB outsourced it to the Unions to avoid to having actually govern and make and implement the tough decisions.

woodoo

kippy wrote: »

To be fair to the poster, the issue really isn't how "well" paid anyone is or rather it shouldnt be.
The issue is the emplorer of public servants is borrowing approximately one billion per month to keep the state afloat. And while people have to put bread on the table, the state simply cannot afford to pay the rates it currently pays.

Why not cut welfare then and why not put a levy on the semi state workers?

johnnydeep

the p.s workers on here keep blaming politicans and waste and everything bar what is by a mile the biggest expense wages. while we could do with half the politicans and no seanad this would only be peanuts and a p.r exercise. the biggest fault of the politicans was to cave in to the bullyboy tactics of the unions representing uncivil servants

true

Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

I doubt there are many if any jobs fitting the above description.

The RIAI say that architects in the public service are paid more than DOUBLE the average private sector architect gets now. Plus many in the private sector have lost their jobs, and I know of some who have lost their pensions : none in the public service have lost their jobs or pension earnings.

At the other end of the scale educational qualifications , cleaners and security personnel in the private sector are paid much less in the private sector than in the public sector.

tayto lover

Well it looks like the Govt side want more talks with the Unions regarding where/what to do now.
The Unions know from the ballots that their members will take no messing, which is good. Some of the Union leaders walking a tightrope with their members as it is.
Looks like the Govt are afraid of the consequences of cutting wages and are backing off.
Victory to the workers despite some of the fat-cat Union leaders rather than because of them.
The money will be found elsewhere or with a bit of painless tweaking.

Jawgap

true wrote: »

The RIAI say that architects in the public service are paid more than DOUBLE the average private sector architect gets now. Plus many in the private sector have lost their jobs, and I know of some who have lost their pensions : none in the public service have lost their jobs or pension earnings.

At the other end of the scale educational qualifications , cleaners and security personnel in the private sector are paid much less in the private sector than in the public sector.

Architects in the PS get a salary, a fixed monthly amount regardless of the projects they are involved in.

Architects in private practice charge a fee & according to the RIAI those fees in 2007 ranged to over 15% for housing new builds up to 5m Euros and extensions up to 3m Euros.......that's serious money for drawing pretty pictures...........everyone knows it's engineers that make buildings stand up.

That's also not bad money considering that up until 2007 anyone could call themselves an architect.

johnnydeep

tayto lover wrote: »

Well it looks like the Govt side want more talks with the Unions regarding where/what to do now.
The Unions know from the ballots that their members will take no messing, which is good. Some of the Union leaders walking a tightrope with their members as it is.
Looks like the Govt are afraid of the consequences of cutting wages and are backing off.
Victory to the workers despite some of the fat-cat Union leaders rather than because of them.
The money will be found elsewhere or with a bit of painless tweaking.

the one thing this government could get right is standing up to the bully boy tactics of the unions and there members. instead they will target the easy target, those already struggling, self employed, low earner paye sector. cut back on education and health. I hope the frontline staff will be happy. what am I saying of course they will. sure they still have a couple of holidays a year and early retirement. sure they might retire at 50 on a big pension and then take some poor bastards in the private sectors job off them

johnnydeep

Jawgap wrote: »

Architects in the PS get a salary, a fixed monthly amount regardless of the projects they are involved in.

Architects in private practice charge a fee & according to the RIAI those fees in 2007 ranged to over 15% for housing new builds up to 5m Euros and extensions up to 3m Euros.......that's serious money for drawing pretty pictures...........everyone knows it's engineers that make buildings stand up.

That's also not bad money considering that up until 2007 anyone could call themselves an architect.

doubtful. why would there even be public sector architects just another long list of p.s workers whose only job is keeping seats warm

Pappa Charlie

tayto lover wrote: »

Well it looks like the Govt side want more talks with the Unions regarding where/what to do now.
The Unions know from the ballots that their members will take no messing, which is good. Some of the Union leaders walking a tightrope with their members as it is.
Looks like the Govt are afraid of the consequences of cutting wages and are backing off.
Victory to the workers despite some of the fat-cat Union leaders rather than because of them.
The money will be found elsewhere or with a bit of painless tweaking.

The bully boy tactics didn't work last time maybe now they might engage in discussion with unions, I hope they don't just think a small tweak will swing a majority vote ,if anything many who voted yes will probally vote no next time now that the bluff has been called.

johnnydeep

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The bully boy tactics didn't work last time maybe now they might engage in discussion with unions, I hope they don't just think a small tweak will swing a majority vote ,if anything many who voted yes will probally vote no next time now that the bluff has been called.

its time for the government to cut ties with the unions. they need to if they cave in to these bullyboys we will be a laughing stock and every decision they make will be challenged. its time to quit picking on the low paid workers who don't have the money or time to protest. stick it to the unions, the so called frontline staff, the welfare recipeients, pensioners and farmers. the pricks who keep whinging while laughing at paye workers who are carrying them

Uriel.

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The bully boy tactics didn't work last time maybe now they might engage in discussion with unions, I hope they don't just think a small tweak will swing a majority vote ,if anything many who voted yes will probally vote no next time now that the bluff has been called.

Overall the voting margins were very tight. Minor tweaks are what is likely to happen. Impact carried a yes vote. They can target SIPTU or INTO. They only need to appease one of them, and indeed only a small number of voters on the no side to tip the balance.

Savings still require to be made so don't expect to come out of it with a much better deal and the "fat cats" are a spent force, can't see higher pay cuts than previously proposed applying to them tbh.

Hopefully the Government imposes greater reforms and starts to streamline better structures and service delivery. Maybe look at a longer term reversal of decentralisation as well

Uriel.

johnnydeep wrote: »

its time for the government to cut ties with the unions. they need to if they cave in to these bullyboys we will be a laughing stock and every decision they make will be challenged. its time to quit picking on the low paid workers who don't have the money or time to protest. stick it to the unions, the so called frontline staff, the welfare recipeients, pensioners and farmers. the pricks who keep whinging while laughing at paye workers who are carrying them

About as rubbish a sentiment as anything coming from the public sector side tbh

true

Jawgap wrote: »

Architects in the PS get a salary, a fixed monthly amount regardless of the projects they are involved in.

Architects in private practice charge a fee & according to the RIAI those fees in 2007 ranged to over 15% for housing .

actually they usually get half that, and thats for supervising the build, specifying materials, checking builders, solving problems etIt does not matter what % fee they charge, the end result is the same

"The RIAI say that architects in the public service are paid more than DOUBLE the average private sector architect gets now. Plus many in the private sector have lost their jobs, and I know of some who have lost their pensions : none in the public service have lost their jobs or pension earnings.

At the other end of the scale educational qualifications , cleaners and security personnel in the private sector are paid much less in the private sector than in the public sector."

Odysseus

johnnydeep wrote: »

its time for the government to cut ties with the unions. they need to if they cave in to these bullyboys we will be a laughing stock and every decision they make will be challenged. its time to quit picking on the low paid workers who don't have the money or time to protest. stick it to the unions, the so called frontline staff, the welfare recipeients, pensioners and farmers. the pricks who keep whinging while laughing at paye workers who are carrying them

What is your issue with pensioners?

true

Odysseus wrote: »

What is your issue with pensioners?

all overpaid, from Brian Cowen to the auld dear in Dundalk who gets double what her sister in Newry gets.

Uriel.

true wrote: »

all overpaid, from Brian Cowen to the auld dear in Dundalk who gets double what her sister in Newry gets.

What do you think is an appropriate weekly pension entitlement then?

tayto lover

true wrote: »

all overpaid, from Brian Cowen to the auld dear in Dundalk who gets double what her sister in Newry gets.

I would prefer to see them looked after than see them struggling.
Have you something against the elderly?

Pappa Charlie

johnnydeep wrote: »

its time for the government to cut ties with the unions. they need to if they cave in to these bullyboys we will be a laughing stock and every decision they make will be challenged. its time to quit picking on the low paid workers who don't have the money or time to protest. stick it to the unions, the so called frontline staff, the welfare recipeients, pensioners and farmers. the pricks who keep whinging while laughing at paye workers who are carrying them

There's an old saying and it comes to mind every time you post

"Never argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and then he'll beat you with experience"

You win Johnny

johnnydeep

tayto lover wrote: »

I would prefer to see them looked after than see them struggling.
Have you something against the elderly?

would you rather not see a child die due to **** healthcare or an oap lose their bus pass or medical card despite their earnings

Odysseus

true wrote: »

all overpaid, from Brian Cowen to the auld dear in Dundalk who gets double what her sister in Newry gets.

You want to take money from one of the most vunerable groups in society, good man, it is not like their taxes didn't pay for you when you where a child. Of where you never a child, always a hard working PAYE paying stand up citizen from the day you graced this planet.

Would you get up out of that garden.

People who worked and lived through harder times than these are the people you have on your hit list. I almost feel sorry for you, your life must be really sh!tty for you to post some of the stuff you post here, empty I guess.

true

tayto lover wrote: »

I would prefer to see them looked after than see them struggling.

Do you know how the Germans and British and the rest of the troika look after their elderly?

tayto lover

johnnydeep wrote: »

would you rather not see a child die due to **** healthcare or an oap lose their bus pass or medical card despite their earnings

I would like to see neither. Why should one depend on the other?

tayto lover

true wrote: »

Do you know how the Germans and British and the rest of the troika look after their elderly?

And your point is what exactly?

Maybe you'd like a cull of the elderly.

johnnydeep

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

There's an old saying and it comes to mind every time you post

"Never argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and then he'll beat you with experience"

You win Johnny

that means about nothing from you you haven't made one meaningful argument yet. just a bit of back slapping between you and the rest of your overpaid buddies. you have just confirmed most people perception of the gardai. arrogant and confrontational. rarely right except in their own head and definetly never admit to being wrong. but above all a feeling that they are better than everybody else

johnnydeep

tayto lover wrote: »

I would like to see neither. Why should one depend on the other?

because despite the high paid wages the p.s are on. if the paye sector gets anymore hits then they will be better off at home. I presume you are aware money doesn't grow on trees.

johnnydeep

Odysseus wrote: »

You want to take money from one of the most vunerable groups in society, good man, it is not like their taxes didn't pay for you when you where a child. Of where you never a child, always a hard working PAYE paying stand up citizen from the day you graced this planet.

Would you get up out of that garden.

People who worked and lived through harder times than these are the people you have on your hit list. I almost feel sorry for you, your life must be really sh!tty for you to post some of the stuff you post here, empty I guess.

a wee cut now would be a walk in the park for them so

Pappa Charlie

johnnydeep wrote: »

that means about nothing from you you haven't made one meaningful argument yet. just a bit of back slapping between you and the rest of your overpaid buddies. you have just confirmed most people perception of the gardai. arrogant and confrontational. rarely right except in their own head and definetly never admit to being wrong. but above all a feeling that they are better than everybody else

I love you too!

Uriel.

johnnydeep wrote: »

because despite the high paid wages the p.s are on. if the paye sector gets anymore hits then they will be better off at home. I presume you are aware money doesn't grow on trees.

Why did you deflect oap entitlements to public service pay?

tayto lover

johnnydeep wrote: »

because despite the high paid wages the p.s are on. if the paye sector gets anymore hits then they will be better off at home. I presume you are aware money doesn't grow on trees.

We were talking about the elderly.
Jesus some of you have it real bad. You don't even take time to read the posts you're so angry.