Croke Park deal to fail

daveyeh

What will Labour do now?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0416/381586-croke-park-agreement/

Cuddlesworth

Dance...........

Dravokivich

Propose a cut of 6%?

Richard tea

Finally some good news

CORDIALLY
butt face:)

Banjo String

Countries broke.

Huge deficit.

Etc etc.

Mr Benevolent

Thank fuck for that.

Caliden

"General Secretary Tom Geraghty warned that this must be the last occasion on which public servants are targeted as they cannot continue to be expected to carry a disproportionate share of the country's burden."

Continue to carry? When did they start?

Richard tea

News just in....Howlin has requested a fresh pair of pants ASAP:eek:

TeddyTedson

I don't really see why any unions would vote for Croke Park 2. I mean nobody want's to be doing more hours in work or taking wage cuts.

super_furry

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Dance...........

May I suggest.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hHx7gdN68

stevedublin

Caliden wrote: »

"General Secretary Tom Geraghty warned that this must be the last occasion on which public servants are targeted as they cannot continue to be expected to carry a disproportionate share of the country's burden."

Continue to carry? When did they start?

since they took pay cuts etc. from the first Croke Park agreement.
....ask a silly question!

Mick ah

Nobody wants to be cut.

But if you have no money, what's the alternative? Borrow to pay wages?

syklops

Shame Margaret Thatcher died. We could use her now on the unions.

nolow

Good, with that out of the way. The government will have no choice but the cut all around. They gave the PS a chance to get the best deal they could and now it's thrown back in their face. Better still this will destroy the union bloc once and for all as the more realistic unions will be furious with their lemming like colleagues who are even now heading off the fiscal cliff while trying to drag them down with them.

The Labour Party will self destruct because they forgot their principles. Which essentially is to protect the PS from reality while taxing the hell out of the rest of us.

The government may fall or it may come back as an FG/FF coalition who will carry on as before because they have no choice.

Any attempt at industrial action will play into the government hands. Public opinion will rapidly turn against the unions and any strikes will cost their members more money than the cuts.

They're like Turkeys voting for Christmas. If the honestly think there's a better deal to be had then they are delusional.

Whether they like it or not the cuts are coming. The money isn't there anymore. No matter what government is in power that reality remains.

super_furry

syklops wrote: »

Shame Margaret Thatcher died. We could use her now on the unions.

I think they're going to want more than an old woman. Sure she wouldn't even be any use for cleaning a house.

Caliden

stevedublin wrote: »

since they took pay cuts etc. from the first Croke Park agreement.
....ask a silly question!

Not really cuts as they still get their guaranteed (not performance based) wage increase every so often.

20Cent

Great news, the worm is turning.

Boombastic

Caliden wrote: »

Not really cuts as they still get their guaranteed (not performance based) wage increase every so often.

It's not a pay rise, it's an increment, which is different because it's a rise in ..er...pay :pac:

Sergeant

Absolutely great news. The Government have tried mediation and will now use legislation to make the cuts necessary to restore some semblance of economic sovereignty to the State.

schnitzelEater

Caliden wrote: »

Not really cuts as they still get their guaranteed (not performance based) wage increase every so often.

Increments?

kippy

Sergeant wrote: »

Absolutely great news. The Government have tried mediation and will now use legislation to make the cuts necessary to restore some semblance of economic sovereignty to the State.

There.Will.Be.War
(ie strikes and generally bad times for the populace for a period until this is sorted out)

Mountjoy Mugger

Get your passports now, kids.

twinytwo

daveyeh wrote: »

What will Labour do now?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0416/381586-croke-park-agreement/

the government will now make cuts across the board. the ps will go on strike and no one will care.

Lord TSC

nolow wrote: »

Good, with that out of the way. The government will have no choice but the cut all around. They gave the PS a chance to get the best deal they could and now it's thrown back in their face.

Please tell me the ways this was the best deal possible?

Speaking as an NQT, I'm thrilled this proposal has been rejected across the board. It would have killed off the teaching profession for new and young teachers by abolishing paid sub work, and it would have destroyed conditions for teachers, and in turn for schools and students.

By refusing the cut in conditions, at least all that can be cut is wages now, and I think most people (at least over on the teaching boards) accept that cuts are on the way, but also that cuts alone are a far better prospect than cuts AND deterioration of conditions as well. Cuts, if times get better, can be reversed. The changes to conditions proposed by the CPII agreement would have been far longer lasting and far more damaging in the short and long run.

DoesNotCompute

Caliden wrote: »

Not really cuts as they still get their guaranteed (not performance based) wage increase every so often.

Increments are only approved if a fully completed annual assessment is completed (look up Performance Management Development System).

Since 2008, civil and public servants have endured a Health Levy, Pension Levy, Pension Related Deductions, and pensions have been restructed such that anyone retiring post Feb 2011 will now receive a pension that is based on averaging, rather than their final salary. Promotions have been put on hold, hiring has been embargoed and most Departments have put a freeze on the Career Break scheme.

You really need to stop reading the Indo if you think public/civil servants haven't been cut.

Sergeant

kippy wrote: »

There.Will.Be.War
(ie strikes and generally bad times for the populace for a period until this is sorted out)

I'd rather have a long winter of discontent and a FG/FF coalition than have my kids and grandkids paying increased taxes for the next 40 years, as we didn't have the balls to deal with the massive overweight elephant in the room - public sector pay and pensions.

granturismo

Caliden wrote: »

Not really cuts as they still get their guaranteed (not performance based) wage increase every so often.

18% reduction in take home from Croke Park 1.

Lets say a PS takes a post with 5 increments - thats one increase per year, after year 5 no increases. Lets say that person gets a promotion to a higher scale with x increments - thats one increase for x years.

Every PS gets a limited amount of increments. Once the top increment is reached thats it - no lifetime of increments

Lord Trollington

granturismo wrote: »

18% reduction in take home from Croke Park 1.

Lets say a PS takes a post with 5 increments - thats one increase per year, after year 5 no increases. Lets say that person gets a promotion to a higher scale with x increments - thats one increase for x years.

Every PS gets a limited amount of increments. Once the top increment is reached thats it - no lifetime of increments

I would hope not. That's the kinda $hit that has us where we are today.

People in the public sector are completely out of touch with reality.

Approx 1.5m people working in Ireland and 68,000 siptu members can hold the country at gun point.

I don't see much sympathy coming for the PS.

SB2013

twinytwo wrote: »

the government will now make cuts across the board. the ps will go on strike and no one will care.

Fairly sure people will notice an absence of emergency services personnel and teachers.

HondaSami

What was the point in the vote in the first place when the government made it clear either agree with then or they bring in legislation to get what they want.Typical of our government.

Lord Trollington

SB2013 wrote: »

Fairly sure people will notice an absence of emergency services personnel and teachers.

Not sure emergency services personnel can go on all out strike, do they not have a duty of care?

Lord TSC

HondaSami wrote: »

What was the point in the vote in the first place when the government made it clear either agree with then or they bring in legislation to get what they want.Typical of our government.

Can't legislate anything other than pay cuts. Can't, for instance, force teachers to do voluntary work like they were proposing. They can cut pay, but will find it hard to force through condition changes....

SB2013

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Not sure emergency services personnel can go on all out strike, do they not have a duty of care?

Only the Gardaí and army cannot strike.

granturismo

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I would hope not. That's the kinda $hit that has us where we are today.

People in the public sector are completely out of touch with reality.
.

What I was trying to say is that most PSs get 10 years of increments and if they work for 30 years thats 20 years of no pay rises unless there were pay rises in national agreements in the good old days.

Caliden

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Increments are only approved if a fully completed annual assessment is completed (look up Performance Management Development System).

Since 2008, civil and public servants have endured a Health Levy, Pension Levy, Pension Related Deductions, and pensions have been restructed such that anyone retiring post Feb 2011 will now receive a pension that is based on averaging, rather than their final salary. Promotions have been put on hold, hiring has been embargoed and most Departments have put a freeze on the Career Break scheme.

You really need to stop reading the Indo if you think public/civil servants haven't been cut.

I like how you say 'Since 2008' because between 2003 and 2009 the Public sector enjoyed a 38% average increase while private had an average of 15%.

Galwayguy35

So what happens now then?

Do the PS unions strike?

Realistically it makes no difference to me whether they do or not as it won't affect me.

Gmol

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Increments are only approved if a fully completed annual assessment is completed (look up Performance Management Development System).

Since 2008, civil and public servants have endured a Health Levy, Pension Levy, Pension Related Deductions, and pensions have been restructed such that anyone retiring post Feb 2011 will now receive a pension that is based on averaging, rather than their final salary. Promotions have been put on hold, hiring has been embargoed and most Departments have put a freeze on the Career Break scheme.

You really need to stop reading the Indo if you think public/civil servants haven't been cut.

Don't forget bank time as well

HondaSami

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So what happens now then?

Do the PS unions strike?

Realistically it makes no difference to me whether they do or not as it won't affect me.

It will have an affect on everyone in some shape or form.

Lord Trollington

SB2013 wrote: »

Only the Gardaí and army cannot strike.

I'd like to see a doctor/fire fighter/ ambulance driver defend his/her strike after there is a loss of life or long term complications because of their actions.

How/why should they be allowed continue in their profession.

granturismo

Gmol wrote: »

Don't forget bank time as well

Its 2013, bank time no longer exists. It disappeared in Croke Park 1. Plus most civil and public servants didnt have 'bank time'

HondaSami

Gmol wrote: »

Don't forget bank time as well

Thought that was stopped.

Lenin Skynard

Surely this is the most profound failure possible for a Labour party in government.

nolow

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Increments are only approved if a fully completed annual assessment is completed (look up Performance Management Development System).

Since 2008, civil and public servants have endured a Health Levy, Pension Levy, Pension Related Deductions, and pensions have been restructed such that anyone retiring post Feb 2011 will now receive a pension that is based on averaging, rather than their final salary. Promotions have been put on hold, hiring has been embargoed and most Departments have put a freeze on the Career Break scheme.

You really need to stop reading the Indo if you think public/civil servants haven't been cut.

Yes and after you complete the annual assessment you get your increment. Don't try and tell me it's peformance based!

Meanwhile in the real world everybody else has been enduring levies and tax increases, pay cuts, short time working and redundancy and they're not too worried about pension cuts and promotions because they either have none or they lost their job anyway. As for career breaks well they're available alright, permanent ones.

I'm sorry but your post highlights exactly how out of touch with reality so many people working in the PS are. What should have happened was all round pay cuts, increased working hours and redeployment or redundancy in large parts of the sector. But here you are whining about your pension and career breaks. Away from the PS, you job would be on the line and with it your house.

Seriously get a grip.

I personally am sick of reading whiny stories from people earning €65k a year about how difficult it is to make ends meet.

Far too many PS workers simply haven't grasped the reality out there. The money isn't there any more.

Uriel.

granturismo wrote: »

Its 2013, bank time no longer exists. It disappeared in Croke Park 1. Plus most civil and public servants didnt have 'bank time'

I remember the Unions and/or members putting up a bit of a fight about it under Croke Park 1, rather stupidly in my opinion.

And CPSU were still harping on about it earlier this year. - not being able to cash their imaginary cheque.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/union-seeks-redress-for-lower-paid-members-1.953090

Gmol

HondaSami wrote: »

Thought that was stopped.

Just adding Bank time to the list of cuts another poster was saying had already being made as a result of CP1

Galwayguy35

HondaSami wrote: »

It will have an affect on everyone in some shape or form.

Well if it does then they will lose whatever small amount of goodwilland support they had left within the private sector.

space_man

time to show these unions who's boss.

Bring back Maggie!

super_furry

The Labour party is dead. They are supposed to represent the interests of the working class Irish citizens but have instead thrown them under the Troika and the Bank's on-coming juggernaut.

Stinicker

There should be no cuts in my opinion what should be is around 100,000 forced redundancies and cut the fat from the system and get rid of the failed sons and daughters of fianna fail cronies who got jobs in the Public service under the Previous Government because most of them were unemployable anywhere else.

paddy147

Bye Bye Eamon Gilmore???????

Lord TSC

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So what happens now then?

Do the PS unions strike?

Government make the next move. They propose something. If the PS union members don't like it, THEN there will be strikes.

I know from talking to people though, both online and off, that no one wants to strike though. It would take something crazy from the government to actually cause people to get out and strike. Most seem ready for paycuts and are prepared to take them...