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Croke Park deal to fail

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    #1112
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Credibility gone, off to the knitting forum please!
    stop badgering and get back on topic or you will be reported


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    #1113
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    true wrote: »
    stop badgering and get back on topic or you will be reported

    Oh! God no!


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    #1114
    johnnydeep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭johnnydeep


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Credibility gone, off to the knitting forum please!
    move on now ( in a thick accent )


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    #1115
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    johnnydeep wrote: »
    move on now ( in a thick accent )

    Good Morning Johnny (in an even thicker voice)


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    #1116
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I think it is quite relevant what professions Johnny and True are in. Since you have both been making assumptions about the qualifications and required intelligence levels of Garda, teachers and nurses, it is only fair that we know what sort of highly qualified, super intelligent people we are dealing with.


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    #1117
    malibu4u
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭malibu4u


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I think it is quite relevant what professions Johnny and True are in.

    How many household charges / property tax does it take to pay the average public service tax-free lump sum "gratuity" of €87,000 ?[/B] Scrap it, or at least reduce it, as Shane Ross says. So says most of the taxpayers in the country - did you not see the headline on the front page of yesterdays Sunday Business Post?


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    #1118
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    handlemaster wrote: »
    True true.. lets borrow more and spend more , money is free

    I don't think I suggested that - I just pointed out that a seminal study used to justify the last five years of economic and fiscal policy has been found to be flawed - possibly fatally.
    me bolly wrote: »
    You cannot tax a country out of a recession .

    That is indeed true - but you can configure the taxation system so it is properly progressive and rewards entrepreneurship and work, rather than people who hoard wealth.

    You'll not be surprised to hear that I'd be a fairly avowed Keynesian - if he was good enough for FDR he should be good enough for Enda - if there'd been a few more Keynesians in the Department of Finance I doubt we'd be in the pit we are now.
    true wrote: »
    I was correcting someone who made the astonishing claim that "The myth of generous pensions applies only at the top of the PS (the ex-Taoisigh, former SecGens, and Deputy SecGens) - once you get down to the middle ranks, the pension benefits are slightly worse than you'd get privately, if you made the same level of contributions"

    My point is that even "ordinary, middle rank" public servants like Gardai get massive public sector pensions.

    Gardai are not middle rank - they're entry level!! A Guard starting out has to work through 8 promotions to get to the top, the same number a second lieutenant has to go through to become Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces - Inspectors, Supers and Chief Supers might be middle rank, but Guards??? I don't think so.

    My other point, which you seem to have conveniently glossed over, is that (in my case) 10 years private sector pension contributions generated benefits equivalent to 15 years of public sector contributions (and yes, I regard myself as middle rank) - in other words pension benefits at the middle rank of the PS are comparable to the private sector, not overly generous.


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    #1119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,715 ✭ [Deleted User]


    true wrote: »
    My point is that even "ordinary, middle rank" public servants like Gardai get massive public sector pensions.

    For a start no middle rank public servant gets a massive pension they get a pension and they deserve it and are entitled to every penny. They paid into it from their first day at work, they signed up to the job knowing they would get it when they retire and worked hard and for less pay than plenty of private sector workers all their lives.

    Its a very simple question but if you are so jealous about the "fantastic" lives you claim people in the public sector have why the hell didn't you get a job there. The most probable reason is because in reality you thought the pay wasn't good enough and instead jumped on the private sector bandwagon during the boom in some low skilled job making way more money than you should have been and now that its no longer the case you begrudge public sector workers, simple as that.

    By reading the nonsense posted by you in this thread its also most likely that you lacked the ability to carry out even the most simple public service job.


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    #1120
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I think it is quite relevant what professions Johnny and True are in. Since you have both been making assumptions about the qualifications and required intelligence levels of Garda, teachers and nurses, it is only fair that we know what sort of highly qualified, super intelligent people we are dealing with.

    I can't wait, maybe we could guess in the meantime?


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    #1121
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,444 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    I do think anyone who hides their profession in such debates only make it look like they have something to hide, even if they claim they don't. It's not like it's a big secret to the world (unless your job is something illegal :P). Furthermore, in a discussion on public sector pay, it allows people to tailor their argument to the person they are discussing it with.

    You can claim that PS workers are overpaid, but relative to who? To the guy who scrubs the toilets at McDonalds? To the Taoisach?

    In order to appreciate your stance, we need to know what direction you are coming at this debate from. Refusing to give a hint of what sort of job you work, and as such what wages & benefits , means that you are deliberately keeping the argument unfairly one sided. And the only reason to do that is if you feel that it would only serve to make your argument look to be on shaky grounds. As such, it is very relevant to such discussions, as it allows us a fuller view of why you feel like you do, why you argue like you do and why you believe what you believe. That's the difference between having a debate and having a rant; if you want a debate, you lay as many cards as you can on the table, and we talk things out. If you want a rant, you hide as many as you want, because then, obviously, you're not interested in hearing both sides of the argument or coming to new conclusions. You want to moan about things.

    So please do continue to spout nonsense and lies about pensions, working hours, etc etc. But until you give us an example of your own to compare it to, you hold no credibility in such discussions.


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    #1122
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,510 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    For a start no middle rank public servant gets a massive pension they get a pension and they deserve it and are entitled to every penny. They paid into it from their first day at work, they signed up to the job knowing they would get it when they retire and worked hard and for less pay than plenty of private sector workers all their lives.

    Its a very simple question but if you are so jealous about the "fantastic" lives you claim people in the public sector have why the hell didn't you get a job there. The most probable reason is because in reality you thought the pay wasn't good enough and instead jumped on the private sector bandwagon during the boom in some low skilled job making way more money than you should have been and now that its no longer the case you begrudge public sector workers, simple as that.

    By reading the nonsense posted by you in this thread its also most likely that you lacked the ability to carry out even the most simple public service job.

    Maybe get your own facts straight, people never made much money in "low skilled" (lovely choice of words BTW) private sector jobs.


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    #1123
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Maybe get your own facts straight, people never made much money in "low skilled" (lovely choice of words BTW) private sector jobs.

    Yes many did in the Celtic tiger years, there was crazy money on building sites for low skilled labourers, many chose these jobs and laughed at the public sector, plus the ability to work for cash was rampant and fuelled the black economy, one thing is for sure if you want to work for cash stay out of the public sector.


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    #1124
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,510 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Yes many did in the Celtic tiger years, there was crazy money on building sites for low skilled labourers, many chose these jobs and laughed at the public sector, plus the ability to work for cash was rampant and fuelled the black economy, one thing is for sure if you want to work for cash stay out of the public sector.

    Yeah I agree labourers made good money during the boom, but jobs in hotels and factories where never anything hectic.


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    #1125
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Yes many did in the Celtic tiger years, there was crazy money on building sites for low skilled labourers, many chose these jobs and laughed at the public sector, plus the ability to work for cash was rampant and fuelled the black economy, one thing is for sure if you want to work for cash stay out of the public sector.

    I know public sector workers that do cash jobs. I know teachers who do grinds, night courses, work for drama schools on the weekend. I've met guards who are ex plumbers or carpenters who do nixers....


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    #1126
    Celticfire
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    Estate agents, car salesmen, travel agents,etc, practically anyone working on commission made plenty of money, very little skills needed as things sold themselves.


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    #1127
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    smash wrote: »
    I know public sector workers that do cash jobs. I know teachers who do grinds, night courses, work for drama schools on the weekend. I've met guards who are ex plumbers or carpenters who do nixers....

    In the private sector


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    #1128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,715 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Maybe get your own facts straight, people never made much money in "low skilled" (lovely choice of words BTW) private sector jobs.

    I didn't mean it was a dig at anyone, its an accepted term used when talking about the workforce. I did plenty of work on building sites myself at summers and weekends during my undergrad and don't think less of anybody no matter what their job be they a cleaner or a CEO (I think less of dole scroungers though).

    Plenty did make a lot of money as has already been outlined, I didn't say everyone.


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    #1129
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    In the private sector
    No idea what you're getting at now. These are PS employees making money on the side doing cash jobs. It doesn't matter where they do it.


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    #1130
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    smash wrote: »
    No idea what you're getting at now. These are PS employees making money on the side doing cash jobs. It doesn't matter where they do it.

    Likewise there are people who work in the private sector who do nixers - what's your point? If nixers are wrong they're wrong for everyone.


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    #1131
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Likewise there are people who work in the private sector who do nixers - what's your point? If nixers are wrong they're wrong for everyone.

    Go back and read before you type. My reply was in relation to the following quote...
    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    one thing is for sure if you want to work for cash stay out of the public sector.


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    #1132
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    Am I the only one who finds it amusing that so many people appear to have registered just to post in this thread?

    Anyway, the unions and rep bodies have proposed other ways of reducing the pay bill without reducing salary. In some cases these were rejected and in others they were not considered as contributing to a reduction in the pay bill but were going to be implemented anyway. People are blind about CP2. There was no real negotiations, no matter what the government and their union puppets say. That's why it failed. There are plenty of ways the cost of the public sector could be reduced without reducing efficiency or salaries. Unfortunately the present government lack the foresight to consider them and can only see things in the short term. Personally, I will fight all future paycuts as long as I see the waste all around me being allowed to carry on.


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    #1133
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    SB2013 wrote: »
    Personally, I will fight all future paycuts as long as I see the waste all around me being allowed to carry on.

    The waste is the problem, and it wont be sorted out because sure the biggest wasters got in when it was a job for life!


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    #1134
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    smash wrote: »
    The waste is the problem, and it wont be sorted out because sure the biggest wasters got in when it was a job for life!

    The majority of waste doesn't come from the people. It comes from ridiculous procedures and practices.


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    #1135
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    SB2013 wrote: »
    The majority of waste doesn't come from the people. It comes from ridiculous procedures and practices.

    Which have been set out by the original wasters!


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    #1136
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    In order to appreciate your stance, we need to know what direction you are coming at this debate from.

    Either an argument makes sense on its own merits or it doesn't. Insisting on knowing people's personal details is unnecessary


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    #1137
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,444 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Either an argument makes sense on its own merits or it doesn't. Insisting on knowing people's personal details is unnecessary

    I guess I just disagree. An argument can be credible from one source and not another; again, a McDonald's toilet scrubber has more of an argument to make about overpaid PS workers than a highly paid TD.

    Now, granted, if the arguement is backed up in other ways, with genuine facts for example, then you can ignore the aspect which deals with whose making it. But a lot of the posts on here tend to revolve round foundations of "I know a guy who..." and "I don't think it's fair just because...." And at that stage, if you want to focus your entire argument around personal opinion, then it's only fair to ask where the basis of that personal opinion is coming from.


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    #1138
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,715 ✭ [Deleted User]


    smash wrote: »
    No idea what you're getting at now. These are PS employees making money on the side doing cash jobs. It doesn't matter where they do it.

    They are not working in the public sector though when doing jobs on the side so it should have no influence on the debate.


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    #1139
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    smash wrote: »
    The waste is the problem, and it wont be sorted out because sure the biggest wasters got in when it was a job for life!

    Maybe you might share with us your occupation and we'll see if anyone met a waster in your job!


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    #1140
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    They are not working in the public sector though when doing jobs on the side so it should have no influence on the debate.
    The point was that you can't earn extra cash while you work for the ps. You can! Where you work holds no bearing over doing jobs on the side.
    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Maybe you might share with us your occupation and we'll see if anyone met a waster in your job!
    Irrelevant considering taxes don't pay towards salaries in my job. If there's wasters, they're not draining public expenditure and they're not protected by unions!


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    #1141
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    smash wrote: »
    The point was that you can't earn extra cash while you work for the ps. You can! Where you work holds no bearing over doing jobs on the side.

    Actually, you can't. If you are caught doing nixers in the private sector the taxman will want a word with you - if you are caught doing them in a lot of public sector jobs, the taxman will still want a word and its grounds for disciplinary action up to and including dismissal.

    In my own role, I'm prohibited from taking on any outside work - so if my financial situation deteriorated to the point of insolvency I'm not allowed go take a second job (tax paying or not).

    I think it's pretty much the same in the Guards and a lot of other parts of the PS.

    I also have to declare my financial interests each year and I'm not allowed accept gifts or hospitality in excess of €125 - anything over €10 has to be declared to the big bosses.

    When I joined the PS I even had to sell the small amount of shares I had in my previous employers' firm - going into a regulatory role means removing any suspicion of a conflict of interest.


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