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Croke Park deal to fail

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    #1232
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    true wrote: »
    The RIAI say that architects in the public service are paid more than DOUBLE the average private sector architect gets now. Not surprising when so many architects are out of work. Many in the private sector have lost their jobs, and I know of some who have lost their pensions : none in the public service have lost their jobs or pension earnings. You cannot argue architects or quantity surveyors or cleaners or security personnel or admin staff are as high paid in the private sector as in the public sector.

    if the government did not squander money on public service pay and pensions, like above, it wqould not have to introduce taxes like the property tax, which will take in much less by comparison.

    If the above is true which I doubt coming from you I wouldn't see the problem. If private sector architects don't have work on of course they are not going to be earning money but public sector architects do have work, they work and are paid a salary. Why should we use the earnings of someone who does not have a continuous stream of work as the bench mark for what someone who works constantly earns.

    You can be sure that a private sector architect still earns much more per hour for the hours he/she does work than a public sector one. They also earned an absolute fortune in the boom while public sector architects still only got their salary, why didn't they all go to work for the public sector when they were earning the bucks in the private sector?


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    #1233
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    lower_league wrote: »
    the state pension is too generous , its not the states job to ensure that old people get to live in luxury anymore than its the states job to ensure unemployed people live in luxury , if you desire this , invest in a private pension

    Yeah you see, that's all well and good if you are starting life off now or in the first half of your career. But working through the 1960s and 1970s etc..were a different kettle of fish.

    It's alright to talk about pension schemes and private investments now, but we're talking about people who worked in times where a lot of folks didn't have bank accounts, didn't complete basic education, worked in environments where Health and Safety wasn't a concern etc...

    You're looking back thinking that the majority of today's pensioners grew up in a time of paying their mortgage on the expresso bus with a free banking app on their smartphone. Quite frankly you haven't bothered to think beyond the rudimentary on the matter to be perfectly hoenst


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    #1234
    lower_league
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭lower_league


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Yeah you see, that's all well and good if you are starting life off now or in the first half of your career. But working through the 1960s and 1970s etc..were a different kettle of fish.

    It's alright to talk about pension schemes and private investments now, but we're talking about people who worked in times where a lot of folks didn't have bank accounts, didn't complete basic education, worked in environments where Health and Safety wasn't a concern etc...

    You're looking back thinking that the majority of today's pensioners grew up in a time of paying their mortgage on the expresso bus with a free banking app on their smartphone. Quite frankly you haven't bothered to think beyond the rudimentary on the matter to be perfectly hoenst


    it would be nice to be able to keep paying huge tribute to the greatest generation for their great feats of the past but unfortunatley the state is broke


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    #1235
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    but public sector architects do have work, they work and are paid a salary.
    Its like the planners in the planning department. Neither has much work on now but they srtill get paid a huge amount of money, much more than the going rate. As said before, if the government did not squander money on public service pay and pensions, like above, it wqould not have to introduce taxes like the property tax, which will take in much less by comparison


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    #1236
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    lower_league wrote: »
    the state pension is too generous , its not the states job to ensure that old people get to live in luxury anymore than its the states job to ensure unemployed people live in luxury , if you desire this , invest in a private pension

    219e is allowing them to live in luxury. If that is luxury I would hate to see your poverty.

    The unemployed people I see every day are not living in luxery either.

    What is this standard of luxury and can you show it appling to most or even a significant amount of either group?


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    #1237
    lower_league
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭lower_league


    Odysseus wrote: »
    219e is allowing them to live in luxury. If that is luxury I would hate to see your poverty.

    The unemployed people I see every day are not living in luxery either.

    What is this standard of luxury and can you show it appling to most or even a significant amount of either group?


    if your reliant on charity , anything along with the basics is luxury in my book , you dont need 219 per week to buy food , energy and phone costs are subsidised heavily


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    #1238
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    If the above is true which I doubt coming from you I wouldn't see the problem. If private sector architects don't have work on of course they are not going to be earning money but public sector architects do have work, they work and are paid a salary. Why should we use the earnings of someone who does not have a continuous stream of work as the bench mark for what someone who works constantly earns.

    You can be sure that a private sector architect still earns much more per hour for the hours he/she does work than a public sector one. They also earned an absolute fortune in the boom while public sector architects still only got their salary, why didn't they all go to work for the public sector when they were earning the bucks in the private sector?

    While I am not farmiliar with the ins and ours of the UK Civil Service, it doesn't appear to me that the Irish Civil Service has double they pay of our neighbours

    http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/recruitment/working/pay-and-reward/scs-pay

    http://www.prospects.ac.uk/civil_service_fast_streamer_salary.htm


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    #1239
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Odysseus wrote: »
    219e is allowing them to live in luxury. If that is luxury I would hate to see your poverty.

    The unemployed people I see every day are not living in luxery either.
    compared to what the elderely get in LESS BANKRUPT countries - the ones who give us money - it is luxury. ........ 460 for a couple on the contributory and 438 for a couple on the non contributory is enough for some people to save on.

    as someone else said, its not the states job to ensure that old people get to live in luxury anymore than its the states job to ensure unemployed people live in luxury , if you desire this , invest in a private pension


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    #1240
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    lower_league wrote: »
    it would be nice to be able to keep paying huge tribute to the greatest generation for their great feats of the past but unfortunatley the state is broke

    The state will then need to pick up the tab for increased health, care and possibly housing costs.

    Might be cheaper all round to build a gas chamber for our aged population and march or wheel them all there?


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    #1241
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    true wrote: »
    compared to what the elderely get in LESS BANKRUPT countries - the ones who give us money - it is luxury. ........ 460 for a couple on the contributory and 438 for a couple on the non contributory is enough for some people to save on.

    as someone else said, its not the states job to ensure that old people get to live in luxury anymore than its the states job to ensure unemployed people live in luxury , if you desire this , invest in a private pension

    can you send me any links to private pension plan portfolios circa 1959?

    Cheers, I'd like to see them for historical interest reasons


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    #1242
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Uriel. wrote: »
    The state will then need to pick up the tab for increased health, care and possibly housing costs.

    Might be cheaper all round to build a gas chamber for our aged population and march or wheel them all there?
    just so that public servants here can continue to earn double what UK public servants get?



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html


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    #1243
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    lower_league wrote: »
    if your reliant on charity , anything along with the basics is luxury in my book , you dont need 219 per week to buy food , energy and phone costs are subsidised heavily

    Well thankfully for those groups your book is not a page turner.


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    #1244
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lower_league wrote: »
    it would be nice to be able to keep paying huge tribute to the greatest generation for their great feats of the past but unfortunatley the state is broke

    Tough luck on the state these people deserve what they are getting after struggling through hard times and now when they have bit of comfort in their old age you want to take it of them. What a scummy thing to suggest.
    true wrote: »
    Its like the planners in the planning department. Neither has much work on now but they srtill get paid a huge amount of money, much more than the going rate. As said before, if the government did not squander money on public service pay and pensions, like above, it wqould not have to introduce taxes like the property tax, which will take in much less by comparison

    Prove they don't have much work on.


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    #1245
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Uriel. wrote: »
    While I am not farmiliar with the ins and ours of the UK Civil Service, it doesn't appear to me that the Irish Civil Service has double they pay of our neighbours

    average public sector pay in UK is £ 23.6k a year

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html


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    #1246
    lower_league
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭lower_league


    Uriel. wrote: »
    The state will then need to pick up the tab for increased health, care and possibly housing costs.

    Might be cheaper all round to build a gas chamber for our aged population and march or wheel them all there?

    you,ve eliminated yourself from serious debate with that naff last paragraph


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    #1247
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    true wrote: »
    just so that public servants here can continue to earn double what UK public servants get?



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html

    What is this, seriously?

    You talk about OAP payments, then deflect it to Public Servant wages...in a DIFFERENT country? Seriously, you're all over the place.


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    #1248
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    true wrote: »
    compared to what the elderely get in LESS BANKRUPT countries - the ones who give us money - it is luxury. ........ 460 for a couple on the contributory and 438 for a couple on the non contributory is enough for some people to save on.

    as someone else said, its not the states job to ensure that old people get to live in luxury anymore than its the states job to ensure unemployed people live in luxury , if you desire this , invest in a private pension

    Please show me the luxury these groups are living in? Plus show how it applies to a significant amount of both groups?

    Just because you state they live in luxury it does not mean they are.


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    #1249
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    Prove they don't have much work on.
    ask what construction work the local authority is doing in your area:D


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    #1250
    lower_league
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭lower_league


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    Tough luck on the state these people deserve what they are getting after struggling through hard times and now when they have bit of comfort in their old age you want to take it of them. What a scummy thing to suggest.



    Prove they don't have much work on.


    no guarentee people in their thirties today wont suffer twice as much as todays pensioners did in the sixties but like i said , it wont save them from the economic realitys of the pension time bomb which is coming down the line

    fairness ( which is entirely subjective anyhow ) has nothing to do with it


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    #1251
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    lower_league wrote: »
    you,ve eliminated yourself from serious debate with that naff last paragraph

    what serious debate? give me something serious to work with and we can have a serious debate? pfft if your serious debate is stretching to why should we look after our elderly, they should have invested in a private pension in the 1960's, then you can keep your "serious" debate


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    #1252
    lower_league
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 28 ✭lower_league


    Uriel. wrote: »
    what serious debate? give me something serious to work with and we can have a serious debate? pfft if your serious debate is stretching to why should we look after our elderly, they should have invested in a private pension in the 1960's, then you can keep your "serious" debate


    no problem in looking after the elderly , what we do here is spoil them for political reward


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    #1253
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Please show me the luxury these groups are living in?

    luxury is relative. What our pensions get is a pittance compared to what our public servants get, but both are much higher than in other countries.


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    #1254
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    true wrote: »
    average public sector pay in UK is £ 23.6k a year

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html

    Which is totally irrelevant its another country who cares what they do.


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    #1255
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    Which is totally irrelevant its another country who cares what they do.

    who cares what the public servants in derry and down, devon and dusseldorf get as they are other countries:rolleyes:

    like many public servants you exude the intellectual capacity of a selfish baby


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    #1256
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    true wrote: »
    ask what construction work the local authority is doing in your area:D

    Plenty of projects on going. Road improvements and new roads, roundabout removal and replacment, bridges being rebuilt and bridge maintenance etc etc.


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    #1257
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    true wrote: »
    luxury is relative.
    .

    You are the one who stated that those groups live in luxury. It was your point


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    #1258
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »
    Plenty of projects on going. Road improvements and new roads, roundabout removal and replacment, bridges being rebuilt and bridge maintenance etc etc.

    for the amount of public sector engineers, f**k all. As they will tell you themselves, the government has no money for new projects now. But shure they look busy for a few hours a day anyway. When you come back to ballymagash from Dubai you will see it all. :D


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    #1259
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    quite pleased it was rejected, they were getting off lightly. greedy gits


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    #1260
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    true wrote: »
    who cares what the public servants in derry and down, devon and dusseldorf get as they are other countries:rolleyes:

    like many public servants you exude the intellectual capacity of a selfish baby

    Yes its irrelevant, the figures are also being massaged by people here using it as a reason to reduce wages. For instance I know my sister nursed in London for a while recently and was paid more than she was earning here on the same increment.


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    #1261
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    true wrote: »
    who cares what the public servants in derry and down, devon and dusseldorf get as they are other countries:rolleyes:

    like many public servants you exude the intellectual capacity of a selfish baby

    How is he being selfish? :confused:


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