Croke Park deal to fail

true

statistics are based on millions of people, not just your sisters alleged earnings. Maybe she sidelined as something else? Not unknown to happen.

true

true wrote: »

statistics are based on millions of people, not just your sisters alleged earnings. Maybe she sidelined as something else? Not unknown to happen.

Sidelined in something else? What are you on about, comments like this really confirm that you are talking total rubbish. I'm giving you facts that the pay there was on a par with here. The straight forward normal pay no sidelines or any other nonsense.

true

Uriel. wrote: »

How is he being selfish?

because he thinks public servants earnings ( eg in the North and elsewhere in the EC )are " totally irrelevant"! Does he not know we are bust and other countries - with the public servant earnings much lower than ours - are funding us?

true

true wrote: »

because he thinks public servants earnings ( eg in the North and elsewhere in the EC )are " totally irrelevant"! Does he not know we are bust and other countries - with the public servant earnings much lower than ours - are funding us?

If you read my posts you would see that I am not in fact a public sector worker so calling me selfish makes no sense.

We are Ireland not the UK or Germany or anywhere else and have different pay scales simple as that. Do you really care even if these other countries are funding us?

Why have you so much begrudgery for the public sector? Why not just accept that you made a choice to work in the private sector or failed to get into a public sector job and get on with it.

Uriel.

true wrote: »

because he thinks public servants earnings ( eg in the North and elsewhere in the EC )are " totally irrelevant"! Does he not know we are bust and other countries - with the public servant earnings much lower than ours - are funding us?

well it is a rather irrelevant response to a question in the state pension to be fair.

On an even more serious note, I have a huge interest in history generally, and I would genuinely love to see those documents and materials regarding those private investment pension schemes from the 1950s and 60s and 70s era, so whenever you have them handy I'd love to do use them as a basis for some research. Cheers

lower_league

Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

If you read my posts you would see that I am not in fact a public sector worker so calling me selfish makes no sense.

We are Ireland not the UK or Germany or anywhere else and have different pay scales simple as that. Do you really care even if these other countries are funding us?

you sound redicolous , comparison will always be made between practices on other countries and its not limited to wage structures , its across the board

you sound like a dunnes stores add

" were different cause were irish "

true

Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

We are Ireland not the UK or Germany or anywhere else and have different pay scales simple as that. Do you really care even if these other countries are funding us?

course I do as I'm a taxpayer ./ net contributer to the government. Like the taxpayers in Germany and UK, I see a totally unfair situation in relation to what the public servants are paid and pensioned here.

true

lower_league wrote: »

you sound like a dunnes stores add

" were different cause were irish "

+1. The public servants here and their families think that public servants here are different to everyone else and deserve to be paid and pensioned much more. Statistics already show they work a shorter working weekl on average and take double the number of sickies. "we're different cause we're irish public sector"

barneystinson

true wrote: »

course I do as I'm a taxpayer ./ net contributer to the government. Like the taxpayers in Germany and UK, I see a totally unfair situation in relation to what the public servants are paid and pensioned

I presume you'll be happy for the average wages across the whole economy to come down to UK levels so? Seeing as private sector wages and by extension the general cost of living, is also higher here...

true

true wrote: »

+1. The public servants here and their families think that public servants here are different to everyone else and deserve to be paid and pensioned much more. Statistics already show they work a shorter working weekl on average and take double the number of sickies. "we're different cause we're irish public sector"

If the pay and pensions are so great why are you not a public sector worker?

barneystinson wrote: »

I presume you'll be happy for the average wages across the whole economy to come down to UK levels so? Seeing as private sector wages and by extension the general cost of living, is also higher here...

Sure why not bring private sector pay down to Italian levels where they are paid about 1/3 to 1/2 of what people are paid here in similar jobs. They are very fast to forget that private sector wages are higher in Ireland than a lot of other countries in Europe.

true

Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

If the pay and pensions are so great why are you not a public sector worker?

maybe I could be for all you know. None of your business anyway.

lotto wins are great too but yet I do not have a winning lotto ticket.

There are not winning lotto tickets for all the people in the country. neither can a few million people work in the Irish public service.

true

true wrote: »

maybe I could be for all you know. None of your business anyway.

Its very relevant actually and if you are one (which it is very obvious you are not) you are an awful fool to be calling for cuts to your own pay and pension.

Plenty of people here have stated their job but yourself and your misguided friend or two are afraid to tell us for whatever reason.

true

Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

Its very relevant actually and if you are one (which it is very obvious you are not) you are an awful fool to be calling for cuts to your own pay and pension.

not really : it would be making it more sustainable in the long run. Lots of public servants acknowledge privately they are overpaid and / or overpensioned, all things (and the state of the economy) considered.

true

true wrote: »

not really : it would be making it more sustainable in the long run. Lots of public servants acknowledge privately they are overpaid and / or overpensioned, all things (and the state of the economy) considered.

Not the ones I know, they all feel they are underpaid for the work they do and I agree totally with them.

Only a fool would champaign for a cut to their own salary. I know id fight to to the last to prevent a cut in mine if I were in the situation and that's a fact.

true

Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

Not the ones I know, they all feel they are underpaid for the work they do and I agree totally with them.

How do you think public servants in the North of Ireland or Britain who earn an average of £23.6k a year, feel? When their comrades here earn an average of €49k a year?

How do you think the private sector feels where they work longer hours for 15k a year less on average in this country?
Do you not realised how absurd our public sector pay and pensions arte here, considering the IMF is here. You are not Brian Cowen by any chance? He feels underpaid and underworked too.

blackhound

Has anyone here watched the documentary "Waiting For Superman", it's about the education system in the US. There is an issue regarding a portion of teachers not being adequate at their jobs but because they had tenure they could not be fired. Now one particular woman Michelle Rhee who was chancellor of Washington D.C public schools came up with a proposal which was:

- If teachers were willing to give up their tenure and agree to evaluation they could earn much higher wages than their colleagues who kept their tenure.

I should add that this proposal was rejected by the unions and that I am not having a go at teachers in Ireland more that I think we need to recognise our better PS workers and maybe this is an idea. Also I am a public sector worker myself, and undoubtedly there is massive waste in my area alone. One of the major problems in the public service imo is that good and bad workers get the same recognition from the general public and management alike. In my area there is an abundance of middle management, many of whom have no skills or knowledge of the areas they are over but it was a job made for the yes (wo)men. There are also people who feel that they're entitled to the job and the wage that goes with it rather than it is to be earned.

I myself voted against croke park as it is not imo a good deal, now I fully understand and appreciate that we need to tackle the huge cost and more importantly make the PS more efficient.

I would hope that we could get this thread back on topic and make it an open discussion on how we can improve the PS whilst cutting spending, as opposed to this cat fighting that we currently have.

handlemaster

jack oconnor must have been up all night working on his proposal for no wage cuts. Th promissory note deal that offsets 1 billion in payments should be used and the best most original idea yet, tax the rich. I know he had to say something but come on this is just something a kid would come up with.

Uriel.

handlemaster wrote: »

jack oconnor must have been up all night working on his proposal for no wage cuts. Th promissory note deal that offsets 1 billion in payments should be used and the best most original idea yet, tax the rich. I know he had to say something but come on this is just something a kid would come up with.

I think if he wanted any sort of credibility he should have been at the centre of his proposal the kind of reforms he'd seek from his members to offset the proposed pay cuts. PS cannot be immune from both pay cuts and significant reform. Don't know what the typical PS member thinks on it but jack o'connor doesn't do his members any favours if you ask me

Celticfire

true wrote: »

maybe I could be for all you know. None of your business anyway.

lotto wins are great too but yet I do not have a winning lotto ticket.

There are not winning lotto tickets for all the people in the country. neither can a few million people work in the Irish public service.

When you were using one of your many different names you claimed to be a public sector worker, but like with all your different names you got kicked from the politics forum for your incessant ranting and BS, isn't that right Jimmy?

Jawgap

For one, I don't mind getting UK pay as long as we get UK conditions including.....

.....a proper National Health Service

.....genuinely free pre-school, primary and secondary education

.....decent local services (assuming we're going pay the LPT at levels equivalent to the Community Charge in the UK)

.....and while we're at it, lets have proper student loans.

Pay in the UK might be less, but more and better services are available - services that you have to pay for here - this goes a long way to explaining why (according to the OECD, so it must be true) average disposable income in the UK equate to $26,552 while in Ireland its $24,156.

When will I be getting this 10% bump in my disposable income?

Point comparisons are useless - if you can't make decent holistic comparison then you're just not trying hard enough.

Pappa Charlie

handlemaster wrote: »

jack oconnor must have been up all night working on his proposal for no wage cuts. Th promissory note deal that offsets 1 billion in payments should be used and the best most original idea yet, tax the rich. I know he had to say something but come on this is just something a kid would come up with.

Jack is trying to justify his own job, he was out of touch with his members and is trying to backtrack, he might as well be sitting at cabinet, bet he'll end up on a fat cat government board in a few years if he gets the deal through.

Means Of Escape

true wrote: »

not really : it would be making it more sustainable in the long run. Lots of public servants acknowledge privately they are overpaid and / or overpensioned, all things (and the state of the economy) considered.

WTF?

Jawgap

true wrote: »

How do you think public servants in the North of Ireland or Britain who earn an average of £23.6k a year, feel? When their comrades here earn an average of €49k a year?

According to the Belfast Telegraph "7% of voters want to remove the border immediately and just 25% more backing moves towards a United Ireland in 20 years time"

........the 7% are obviously all public sector workers

true wrote: »

How do you think the private sector feels where they work longer hours for 15k a year less on average in this country?

The data does not support your assertion - average employee hours worked in Ireland are the second lowest in the EU (38.4hrs) - only Denmark has a shorter working week for employees.

true wrote: »

Do you not realised how absurd our public sector pay and pensions arte here, considering the IMF is here. You are not Brian Cowen by any chance? He feels underpaid and underworked too.

I'm sure you know this already but the IMF's own data shows that the UK taxes more and spends more - they spend nearly 2.5% more of their GDP on public services - there's a very obvious reason for this (which I'm sure you're aware of, you don't need me to tell you what it is), but even allowing for that skewing factor their spend (as a % of GDP) is still ahead of what we spend on public services.

The IMF data also shows that we have a comparative structural balance BUT our current account surplus is project to be almost 5% for 2012 and even the IMF's projections out to 2018 don't envisage it falling much below 4% - compared the UK's deficit of 3.5% in 2012 with continuing 3 - 4% deficits projected to 2018.

true

Jawgap wrote: »

For one, I don't mind getting UK pay as long as we get UK conditions including.....

.....a proper National Health Service

.....genuinely free pre-school, primary and secondary education

.....decent local services (assuming we're going pay the LPT at levels equivalent to the Community Charge in the UK)

.....and while we're at it, lets have proper student loans.

The government can afford all that, and more, and will be able to reduce our current borrowing of 20 billion a year just to keep public spending paid, if it reduces our current average public sector pay of €49k a year to the UK average of £23.6k a year stg.

If a beggar is getting food or aid, does he demand double the standard of living of those who are helping him out?

kippy

true wrote: »

The government can afford all that, and more, and will be able to reduce our current borrowing of 20 billion a year just to keep public spending paid, if it reduces our current average public sector pay of €49k a year to the UK average of £23.6k a year stg.

If a beggar is getting food or aid, does he demand double the standard of living of those who are helping him out?

If you are quoting figures of 23.6K STERLING and 49K EUROS, as well as 20Billion Euros I would ask where are you getting those figures from?
Also, at no point do you take into account currencies.......why not?

true

true wrote: »

The government can afford all that, and more, and will be able to reduce our current borrowing of 20 billion a year just to keep public spending paid, if it reduces our current average public sector pay of €49k a year to the UK average of £23.6k a year stg.

If a beggar is getting food or aid, does he demand double the standard of living of those who are helping him out?

You really have no understanding of the fact public sector workers can take no more cuts. They have already had large reductions in their salary. How do you expect them to survive if you cut them anymore?

When will you get it into your head people don't care what the average is in the UK, you can't compare directly like that we have a much higher cost of living here for a start and even if we didnt we don't have to copy other countries. A high proportion of public sector workers are already underpaid and you are talking about cutting then more. Will you ever cop onto yourself.

true

kippy wrote: »

If you are quoting figures of 23.6K STERLING and 49K EUROS, as well as 20Billion Euros I would ask where are you getting those figures from?

read back through the thread.
they are easily accessed from reputable sources if you google. You can argue about the UK figure but its in the mid twenties / that order. It raise to that during the long term of the labour government ....and many taxpayers in the UK are now compaining about their public servants getting their twenty something grand a year on average, gross.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html

kippy wrote: »

Also, at no point do you take into account currencies.......why not?

because currencies fluctuate. For your information, the average UK public sector wage of £23.6 k stg is about €27.7 k at current exchange rates.

true

Gordon Stale Birthmark wrote: »

You really have no understanding of the fact public sector workers can take no more cuts. They have already had large reductions in their salary. How do you expect them to survive if you cut them anymore?

Other people survive on much less.
Low paid public service workers should not bear the brunt of pay cuts. The higher paid and pensioned should.

Its going to happen anyway- the troika are going to reduce the average €87,000 tax-free "gratuity" public service workers get on retirement as a start.

true

true wrote: »

Other people survive on much less.

So, that's not a reason for some of the most important workers in the country to have to. You cannot compare the work of nurses, teachers, guards etc to the private sector. These are vital jobs and the people working in them have to get paid a decent wage. All three are as it stands underpaid for the responsibilities they have. Do you really want people on crap money educating your children or looking after you in hospital?

true wrote: »

Its going to happen anyway- the troika are going to reduce the average €87,000 tax-free "gratuity" public service workers get on retirement as a start.

Let them try. These people have worked all their lives and deserve this. Any hint of this being reduced and you will have a lot of people retiring very quickly to get it. I know any hint of a reduction and both my parents will retire before it happens. I'd love to see you go face to face with some of the people you are attacking here, you would be running away with your tail between your legs in a matter of minutes.

kippy

true wrote: »

read back through the thread.
they are easily accessed from reputable sources if you google. You can argue about the UK figure but its in the mid twenties / that order. It raise to that during the long term of the labour government ....and many taxpayers in the UK are now compaining about their public servants getting their twenty something grand a year on average, gross.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7036131/Record-gap-between-public-and-private-sector-pay.html




because currencies fluctuate. For your information, the average UK public sector wage of £23.6 k stg is about €27.7 k at current exchange rates.

Where are you getting your 49K and 23.6K figures from? I want to see WHERE YOU get them from.

Currencies fluctuate - no way - so why don't you take them into account?