Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

corktina

BenShermin wrote: »

In an ideal world that would be fantastic. In reality though Ireland is a small country and anybody I know has family/friends down the country or up in the big smoke. Last minute parties and get togethers happen and the idea of internet booking goes out the window. Not to mention the elderly and ad-hoc business travellers.

Fair enough, you make rush hour trains more comfortable, but how many off-peak passengers do you lose because they couldn't be bothered with the hassle of making reservations? I can just never see it working in Ireland tbh.

that "Ireland is a small country" is bogus. Journey times Cork to London et al are less than Cork to Dublin, but still you are expected to book a seat (or a ticket if Ryanair which amounts to the same thing, )#
Those off-peak customers would have two choices,..book online or stay at home...I can't see many not travelling just because they have to pre-bok, it doesn't stop short-haul air passengers travelling

Grandeeod

dowlingm wrote: »

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/reforms-proposed-to-cut-sncb-losses.html

Fares can be dirt cheap if someone else will carry the can - and remember that's a mainland European railway with all the economies of scale that come with 1435mm gauge and interconnection for medium-distance travel any direction other than west in to the sea.

An Island nation. Small population. Different guage. Ireland is unique and it doesnt help.

BenShermin

corktina wrote: »

that "Ireland is a small country" is bogus. Journey times Cork to London et al are less than Cork to Dublin, but still you are expected to book a seat (or a ticket if Ryanair which amounts to the same thing, )#
Those off-peak customers would have two choices,..book online or stay at home...I can't see many not travelling just because they have to pre-bok, it doesn't stop short-haul air passengers travelling

I can't see many not travelling either, the thing is that they just wouldn't use the train in such a case. Both GoBÉ and Aircoach offer tickets with no restrictions. I might book the 1630 GoBÉ from Cork to Dublin on a Monday, but in reality I've travelled on other bus services on the Monday with no problem. Unless fares are very cheap, such as the €20 return fares on Irish Rail I quoted in an earlier post then people won't like having to travel at an exact time.

bk

The online cheap advanced booking just won't work on trains in Ireland.

It has already been tried and failed on Irish Rail.

Comparisons with the airline industry are irrelevant, trains face very different competition. With an airline, you have no choice but to use an airline and they all have the same sort of demand based early booking system.

But trains in Ireland face very strong competition from both car and coach. No point in offering cheap tickets weeks in advance and expensive tickets closer to the day, when someone can simply walk up to a coach on the day and pay one quarter of the price and still get to their destination in the same time!

Then there simply isn't any point in booking weeks in advance.

Add to that the seeming Irish dislike with online booking.

No, I firmly believe the way to go is the Netherlands model. Cheap and cheerful mass transit by rail. Tickets are always cheap on rail, no matter if you buy the ticket weeks in advance or right on the day. Also much simpler, no reserved seats in second class. It is all much more like the coach services we have here in Ireland and much more flexible. I honestly believe it is the only way intercity rail travel will survive in Ireland.

Jamie2k9

The online cheap advanced booking just won't work on trains in Ireland

Have you anything to back that statment up?

BenShermin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have you anything to back that statment up?

The fact that Irish Rail tried to introduce "yield management" pricing on-line and then scraped the idea in 2012 kind of backs that argument up.

Jamie2k9

BenShermin wrote: »

The fact that Irish Rail tried to introduce "yield management" pricing on-line and then scraped the idea in 2012 kind of backs that argument up.

So you wouldn't call the current online 7 days, 3 days and on day of travel fares a form of yield management no?

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So you wouldn't call the current online 7 days, 3 days and on day of travel fares a form of yield management no?

No. With proper yeild management the price only goes up as tickets are sold so potentially tickets bought on day of travel could be very cheap if the service was not busy. When irish rail tried this before there were plenty of the cheaper fares for a while then they started cutting back on the number of cheaper fares allowed per service so that only a handful of the cheapest fares could be got despite how busy or empty the train was.

Irish people don't like that kind of gouging.

Since JD posted the 1976 rail advert, here's a 1984 bus one. :pac:

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

No. With proper yeild management the price only goes up as tickets are sold so potentially tickets bought on day of travel could be very cheap if the service was not busy. When irish rail tried this before there were plenty of the cheaper fares for a while then they started cutting back on the number of cheaper fares allowed per service so that only a handful of the cheapest fares could be got despite how busy or empty the train was.

Irish people don't like that kind of gouging.

I'm well aware of what yield managment is but what IR are offering online is a form of it.

Do you think that bus operators both public and private should have proper yeild management in place?

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm well aware of what yield managment is but what IR are offering online is a form of it.

Do you think that bus operators both public and private should have proper yeild management in place?

The bus operators don't need it as they are charging realistic "walk up" fares for the journeys undertaken. Irish rail fare for a cork to dublin city centre open return is €79.50+€3.20 for bus/luas. The bus companies charge a quarter of that fare for walk up passengers.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

The bus operators don't need it as they are charging realistic "walk up" fares for the journeys undertaken. Irish rail fare for a cork to dublin city centre open return is €79.50+€3.20 for bus/luas. The bus companies charge a quarter of that fare for walk up passengers.

Nobody is just going to walk up and take a return trip to Dublin from Cork in the morning.

The bus operators have plenty of spare capacity not being filled outside of peak hours so mabye they do need to interduce better yield managment.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nobody is just going to walk up and take a return trip to Dublin from Cork in the morning.

The bus operators have plenty of spare capacity not being filled outside of peak hours so mabye they do need to interduce better yield managment.

the departure times between the coach perators are staggered so that if you cant be accommodated on say the aircoach to cork you simply pop over to busaras and get the gobe that departs half an hour later. There is no need for yeild management.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

the departure times between the coach perators are staggered so that if you cant be accommodated on say the aircoach to cork you simply pop over to busaras and get the gobe that departs half an hour later. There is no need for yeild management.

That is not what I asked.

corktina

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nobody is just going to walk up and take a return trip to Dublin from Cork in the morning.

QUOTE]

my missus did from Mallow on Monday

Why? because she was on a course and didn't know what time train she'd be able to get on her return. This is another issue that needs addressing, if you can BOOK online, you should be able to alter your ticket online too. She didn't fancy queueing to change her ticket after a long day studying.

bk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nobody is just going to walk up and take a return trip to Dublin from Cork in the morning.

The walk up ticket prices to Cork are:
Adult Single: €62
Adult Open Return: €73

Plus add the cost of Luas/Bus to Hueston.

BTW yes I often take trips to Cork last minute, did exactly that last Friday when I heard my Aunt was sick in hospital, so obviously I took Aircoach. These days I often pop down to Cork last minute, when I hear of parties/events happening down there and some friends from Cork do the same to Dublin.

The coach companies don't need to do yield management as their tickets are already by far the cheapest way to get to Cork/Galway/Limerick/etc. anyway.

I believe intercity routes are a relatively inelastic market. What I mean by that is very few people are just going to decide to go to Cork because they can get a €5 ticket. Instead you have x number of people who have decided to travel to Cork every day for whatever reason (business, family, friends, concert, etc.) and some of them will be looking for the cheapest way to do that. Coach companies already win those customers as their ticket prices are 2 to 4 times cheaper then rail.

If the coach companies offered even cheaper off peak prices, all it would mean is that they would lose more money as they give cheaper tickets to people who would have decided to use them anyway!

Having said that I will admit I'm travelling to Cork a lot more frequently now due to the cheaper coach services. But I'm not sure that would be true for most people.

Also CityLink and GoBus did once operate a yield management system on the Galway route, with tickets from just €1 ! But they have now replaced it with a fixed €10 ticket price, so I assume they found that the yield management system didn't work very well. I think it was only useful in the early days in attracting attention and getting new customers to try the service.

Aircoach/GoBE could do it on that basis, offering €1 tickets to promote the service and get people to try it out, but I think it would only be a temporary thing and wouldn't work out in the long term.

BTW Yield Management systems are much more complicated and costly to set up and manage then a fixed fare system. So there is that too.

To be honest the coach companies face a very different set of challenges then Irish Rail. Coach companies already have by far the cheapest ticket prices, so that isn't their issue. Their problem is getting over Irish peoples pre-conceptions of bus travel being slow, smelly and crappy and getting people to try out the new much better services. Aircoach also need to get new toilet equipped coaches.

BenShermin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nobody is just going to walk up and take a return trip to Dublin from Cork in the morning.

I would, and I have done on Aircoach, BÈ and GoBÉ. If IÉ had decent walk up fares I'd happily travel last minute with them aswell.

Richard Logue

Richard Logue wrote: »

And whilst road deaths are mercifully on the decrease in Ireland, thanks mostly to the drink driving laws and speed limit enforcement, we haven't had any rail fatalities since 1991 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents

I was always under the impression that Cherryville in 1983 was the last fatal accident. I can't find anything about the 1991 accident being fatal except on Wikipedia, has anyone any info on it? Or is it a case of [citation needed]?

Losty Dublin

Karsini wrote: »

I was always under the impression that Cherryville in 1983 was the last fatal accident. I can't find anything about the 1991 accident being fatal except on Wikipedia, has anyone any info on it? Or is it a case of [citation needed]?

When a train derailed in October 1991 at Ballycumber, an elderly lady on board died. I don't know the exact details of what happened her or the train but a record of the incident is in IRRS Journal 117; I'll try pick it up one of the days if I can.

Judgement Day

I always thought that most people were 'walk-up' passengers? I've never booked online and wouldn't bother. One of the advantages of rail used to be that you could walk/run onto the train at the last minute and if you could got on you were set. I know of friends who were turned away by private bus operators and BE down the years because the bus was full. I'm not advocating train travel India style but I think that fares need to be simplified drastically, and the railway should play to its inbuilt advantages - capacity of trains (even if you end up standing), reliable schedules, good catering at cost price etc.etc...

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

When a train derailed in October 1991 at Ballycumber, an elderly lady on board died. I don't know the exact details of what happened her or the train but a record of the incident is in IRRS Journal 117; I'll try pick it up one of the days if I can.

I think the reason this is not treated as a rail casualty is because the person in question died from a heart attack. Sad though it is, I believe her death was not attributed to the derailment. I am open to correction.

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

I think the reason this is not treated as a rail casualty is because the person in question died from a heart attack. Sad though it is, I believe her death was not attributed to the derailment. I am open to correction.

sadly either outcome couldn't be proved or disproved

Rocky Bay

end of the road wrote: »

we need as many pro rail people as we can to come up with ways to fight for our rail network, dispite what some might believe it is needed, with proper investment and proper speeds it can offer faster journey times then the motor way, a motor way alone isn't good enough for ireland, it needs something else to complament it and no better piece of infrastructure to do that then rail, we need to fight for it as once its gone its gone, in my view if it went it would be a step backwards just like the removal of the dublin tram network to be replaced by busses (all though i'm sure at the time the infrastructure was so far gone that a bus was faster)

Look to Los Angeles which abandoned its interurban rail system in the 1940's or 1950's in favor of a bus system. An underground rail system is/was being built there now and there are plans to expand it. Several commuter rail systems in various California cities have come into being in the last 20-30 years. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania had a very small commuter rail system until about 25 years ago. I don't remember where its other terminal was but I recall the service: 2 or 3 trains into Pittsburgh in the morning and 2 or 3 back out in the evening. Pittsburgh, according to an article I read last year is considering resurrecting commuter rail. A Texas city, I forget which one, is about to begin or expand commuter rail as have several American cities which have not had that method of transportation in decades. New Jersey Transit operating in the state of new Jersey, Metro North operating out of Grand Central Terminal into the northern suburbs of NYC, the Long Island Rail Road out of Penn Station east to Long Island all looking to increase/expand service in their respective operating areas, around NYC and between themselves.(There is talk of NJT operating trains from Trenton, N.J. via Penn Station over Amtrak into New Haven, Connecticut ) Boston's MTA wants to begin service, once again, to Cape Cod. Amtrak can't handle all the passengers that want to travel on its North East Corridor- the line between Washington D.C. through Baltimore, Philadelphia, Newark, NYC, New Haven, Providence into Boston. What does this have to do with the Dublin/Cork route? Not very much...for now. Granted that many of these cities/towns/urban areas have the population to support commuter rail and that many in Ireland don't right now. The ever escalating cost of petrol in the future will/should "drive" people to the train. I have several other points to make but I am too bloody tired right now to express them, but I will say/type this: what we have now in rail infrastructure, right of way and service should be preserved/kept/maintained/not relinquished though all of it may not be of use now our future generations deserve it and so does the country. When its gone/demolished/torn up/sold/paved over...its gone for good.

Jamie2k9

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I always thought that most people were 'walk-up' passengers? I've never booked online and wouldn't bother. One of the advantages of rail used to be that you could walk/run onto the train at the last minute and if you could got on you were set. I know of friends who were turned away by private bus operators and BE down the years because the bus was full. I'm not advocating train travel India style but I think that fares need to be simplified drastically, and the railway should play to its inbuilt advantages - capacity of trains (even if you end up standing), reliable schedules, good catering at cost price etc.etc...

That is the past, most book online now except the studnets (some do to) and on short journeys. Would be good if we knew what % of intercity reveune is generated online.

The walk up ticket prices to Cork are:
Adult Single: €62
Adult Open Return: €73

Plus add the cost of Luas/Bus to Hueston.

How many times does it need to be posted not everybody who uses Heuston comes from city centre, these costs can be applied to the bus as people have to travel into the city centre to take the bus.

my missus did from Mallow on Monday

Why? because she was on a course and didn't know what time train she'd be able to get on her return. This is another issue that needs addressing, if you can BOOK online, you should be able to alter your ticket online too. She didn't fancy queueing to change her ticket after a long day studying.

So your wife could of booked a return journey for €39,98 and if booked the wrong train in most cases be allowed to transfer for free or pay the €10 but instead payed €73 on the day. I'm sure you could of spent that €20 or €30 depending on transfer cost on someting better...

Richard Logue

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

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How many times does it need to be posted not everybody who uses Heuston comes from city centre, these costs can be applied to the bus as people have to travel into the city centre to take the bus.

Agreed. The dispersal of travellers from Heuston is right across the Greater Dublin area not just O'Connell Bridge as the anti rail posters would have it. Remember the passengers for the long distance bus services aren't just walking from O'Connell Bridge to their Westmoreland Street bus stop either. The distance from Heuston to O'Connell bridge is just used as a straw man argument in favour of scrapping Inter City rail with privately operated buses.

Rocky Bay

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Removing level corssings will make no differeancs as they as trains operate at top speed through them.

I believe it will make a world of difference by reducing the amount of level crossing incidents. A collision can shut down a line for hours depending on how serious the incident is. Then there is the removal, clean up and repair if called for and the follow up investigation. Level crossing incidents can use up a lot of time/energy/material very quickly. I don't recall reading about that many on the Dublin/Cork line so perhaps it is not a problem but I still think closing them is a better practice.

devnull

The fact is true though, the City center is far easier to get to for most people in the Dublin than it is to get to Heuston unless you are on one of the train lines serving there or the red LUAS line, everyone else has to go through or change at the city center to get there.

Jamie2k9

Rocky Bay wrote: »

I believe it will make a world of difference by reducing the amount of level crossing incidents. A collision can shut down a line for hours depending on how serious the incident is. Then there is the removal, clean up and repair if called for and the follow up investigation. Level crossing incidents can use up a lot of time/energy/material very quickly. I don't recall reading about that many on the Dublin/Cork line so perhaps it is not a problem but I still think closing them is a better practice.

There has being very few accients of late at level crossings, its mostly farm corssings now. Agree that if all gone there would be zero accidents but I was more saying that speed wouldn't change if they were gone, thaught that was where you were coming from. A reason for so few on the Cork is because most have gate keepers and people can't take the chance but in general accidents are not common anymore.

The fact is true though, the City center is far easier to get to for most people in the Dublin than it is to get to Heuston unless you are on one of the train lines serving there or the red LUAS line, everyone else has to go through or change at the city center to get there.

That may be but having a full car park in Heuston would suggest people prefer to drive instead of getting the bus into town. Living on the red line or along bus route 145 which a large population do makes Heuston just as easy but all I am pointing out is that not everybody goes to city centre.

devnull

To be fair though the level crossing incidents that happen are mostly related to people who are doing stupid things like ignoring barriers or zig-zagging beyond them or not paying too much attention - the problem is not with level crossings, more the fact how people treat them.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That may be but having a full car park in Heuston would suggest people prefer to drive instead of getting the bus into town. Living on the red line or along bus route 145 which a large population do makes Heuston just as easy but all I am pointing out is that not everybody goes to city centre.

Versus the city center which has the Maynooth commuter line, other commute services, the Dart and about 50 bus routes running through it which are of a much greater population, so I'm not surprised that people drive there as it would be a more direct better option.

True not everyone goes into the city center but the numbers of people who would have to go via the City center to Heuston is vastly higher than those who would have a direct link. Of course if Heuston and Connolly were linked together by rail then this would make the whole thing more attractive of course to everyone!

Pretty much anyone on the North side is going to have to go from the city center and anyone on the east of the city too. I live on the North and Heuston I avoid simply because it's an annoyance to get there. If I could get a direct train there I'd do it.

For what it's worth I use train and bus for many journeys i take, but Heuston's location IS an issue to me for services from there so it's part of the reason I prefer the bus, if the Cork route for instance left from Connolly, I'd be more likely to take it.