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Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?
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how many people coming from the airport actually travel from Heuston by train AS A PROPORTION of the throughput of the Airport ?
In other words, is there actually a demand for intercity services on the lines south and west or is the demand actually greater in other directions? My opinion is that the greatest part of the demand from the Airport would in fact be travel to the City and the various routes, rail and bus, urban and long distance, and best served by buses as now to the City Centre at no extra cost or if we had any money a LUAS-type line.0 -
Just for fun, here's a list that I've sourced of countries without rail systems:
Iceland
Greenland
Andorra
Malta
Liechtenstein
San Marino
Equatorial Guinea
Guinea Bissau
Chad
Central African Republic
Rwanda
Burundi
Somalia
Yemen
Oman
Qatar
Bahrain
Kuwait
Nepal
Bhutan
Any more of your knowledge, please add
That's a remarkable league of countries for us to aspire to be part of.. Often wondered why John Teeling, Kevin Myers and Sean Barrett advocated ripping up the railways and popularised the idea among the Poujadiste classes in Ireland, as if they were some kind of unique drain on the public purse..0 -
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Con non of us is suggesting Ireland shouldn't have railways. That is a strawman argument you are constructing there.
Dart, Luas and commuter rail around Dublin are absolutely vital for the health of our economy.
Commuter rail around Cork also seems to work well and maybe around Limerick and Galway.
What is definitely in question are branch lines and to a lesser extent intercity services.0 -
Richard Logue, I believe you overestimate the impact that closing down the intercity lines would have.....
While I'm not suggesting for a moment that we actually do that, it wouldn't be a major deal if it did happen.....
~10m intercity journies displaced from rail to private car to public transport will be ''a major deal'' and noticeable to all.Yes there would also be more cars on our motorways, but again our motorways were way over specced and it would easily be able to handle the extra numbers with no noticeable reduction in journey times or increase in congestion.
The Cork - Dublin motorway, right now, still has a tendency to be clogged up at either end at peak times. Any economic growth will almost certainly increase these tailbacks and in the absence of the Newlands X & Dunkettle upgrades, IC rail is still a desirable option timewise.
With a modest investment in the removal of the remaining level-crossings and other bits n' pieces on the Cork - Dublin line, timings on the line will come down and easily match and beat city centre to city centre driving time.
Note that a single modest investment in upgrading the line, as proposed by IR several years ago, would deliver improved journey times to all the major urban area's in the south & west. The equivalent investment might build a small bypass or a stretch of a primary route whose AADTs would be dwarfed by passenger numbers on the Cork line as is.
If you argument is the environment or the high price of fuel, then that is more of an argument for bus coach then train.
Bus coaches are more fuel efficient (and thus less polluting) then diesel trains.
Bus coaches tickets are also much cheaper then train tickets.
If you are arguing that rising oil prices will impact buses, remember that it will impact diesel trains more as they use more fuel per passenger then buses.
You've made this point multiple times and continue to do so, despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you that its implausible. Remember most of the environmental damage caused by a motor vehicle occurs during its construction.
So by you proposing that IC rail is eliminated, we're scrapping a large % of IR's fleet. Right there is terrible environmental damage in scrapping a fleet a decade old. Maybe IR will luck out and manage to sell it, maybe not.
Then when you factor the environmental cost of those ~10m journies previously taken by rail are instead taken by private car (more likely) or bus (less likely), the cumulative damage - more cars and buses purchased - to the environment is far, far greater then as things stand now with IC rail in place.0 -
I don't think anyone's really suggesting just closing the railway network. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, especially in the light of the very significant level of capital investment that went in and the fact that it's in the best state it's been in for decades.
We need to be looking at forward planning for things like electrification of all commuter rail and probably Cork-Dublin. In fact, those are the types of things we should have been slowing plugging away at for decades. If we'd been adding 20-30km/year we'd have had a decent electric rail network by now.
It's one way that we could be using all that wind power / renewables to cut our costs and CO2 output.
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We do need to look rationally at what railway lines are being used and if busses are a better alternative e.g. in areas with lots of scattered development / small towns and no big hubs.
For example, would it make more sense to spend a lot of money on a subsidised bus network in the Northwest / Sligo / North Leitrim instead of having the train?
I'm not talking about replacing it with a heap of rubbish old style coaches, but maybe actually put some really good road-transport services in place that might actually serve smaller villages/towns more frequently and use the spare cash to improve the local services.
I think we need to just be very rational about stuff like this. Trains have their advantages, e.g. if you need to move a lot of people in bulk along a dense commuter route (E.g. Dundalk/Drogheda/Kildare/Potentially Midleton etc)
I just wonder about these long-distance trains to places that have really low density when you've limited funding available for services that might actually improve people's lives.
I remember spending some time in Manorhamilton in Leitrim and there was an absolutely pathetic bus service. You basically couldn't work in Sligo and commute there even though the distance is quite small and it's obviously the nearest town.
Meanwhile, there were people campaigning endlessly about train services to Sligo which were OK and anytime I was on them were really empty and they really weren't faster than a bus.
You'd just wonder if perhaps a bus-based service in that part of Ireland would make more sense than rail, if the rail's costing a lot of money in terms of subsidies to keep lines maintained etc.
I'd rather just see a really good public transport system and don't particularly care whether that means the vehicles run on road or rails, just as long as it makes sense!0 -
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Although I think that rail travel from Cork to Dublin via Belfast has a long-term future with no other confounding factors coming into play, the talk of Ireland giving up all passenger rail travel is indeed nothing more than a straw man.Con non of us is suggesting Ireland shouldn't have railways. That is a strawman argument you are constructing there.
Dart, Luas and commuter rail around Dublin are absolutely vital for the health of our economy.
Commuter rail around Cork also seems to work well and maybe around Limerick and Galway.
What is definitely in question are branch lines and to a lesser extent intercity services.
I don't know why the viability of rail travel between the three largest cities is being questioned though. Much of the routes involved would remain for commuter travel anyway. Of the lines between Belfast and Cork, the part between Newry and Drogheda (at a push) and then Portlaoise and Mallow (and lets ignore the impact on Limerick) could be closed off for instance. I can't fathom a situation where that would happen. The viability of commuter rail and Intercity rail will remain closely connected for the forseeable future I think.0 -
With a modest investment in the removal of the remaining level-crossings and other bits n' pieces on the Cork - Dublin line, timings on the line will come down and easily match and beat city centre to city centre driving time.
Removing level corssings will make no differeancs as they as trains operate at top speed through them.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22136
I'd rather just see a really good public transport system and don't particularly care whether that means the vehicles run on road or rails, just as long as it makes sense!
This 100 times over. I really couldn't care less if it is rail or bus or teleporter, as long as we have a good quality affordable public transport system that makes sense.~10m intercity journies displaced from rail to private car to public transport will be ''a major deal'' and noticeable to all.
Let me put that in context for you. Until GoBE reduced their schedule to bi-hourly a few weeks, ago, the combined capacity of the Aircoach and GoBE service to Cork is over 1,241,000 per year. And these are services that didn't exist a year ago.
The capacity of GoBus and Citylink to Galway 1.6 million per year.
The numbers for Limerick and Belfast are similar.
And those numbers are all based on 50 passenger single deckers. Upgrade them to double deckers and you double those numbers again.
If intercity rail was closed down (and I'm not saying it should) the existing bus services would be able to deal with the demand by upgrading from a single decker every hour to two double deckers per hour (every 30 minutes).
So really it isn't as bad as you make it out to be.The Cork - Dublin motorway, right now, still has a tendency to be clogged up at either end at peak times. Any economic growth will almost certainly increase these tailbacks and in the absence of the Newlands X & Dunkettle upgrades, IC rail is still a desirable option timewise.
Not in my experience, you can do Cork to Dublin by car even at peak times in about 2 hours 15 minutes to 2 hours 30 minutes, depending on where you are going to and from.
BTW the Newlands X upgrade is to start in a few months, removing even this bottlekneck.With a modest investment in the removal of the remaining level-crossings and other bits n' pieces on the Cork - Dublin line, timings on the line will come down and easily match and beat city centre to city centre driving time.
Note that a single modest investment in upgrading the line, as proposed by IR several years ago, would deliver improved journey times to all the major urban area's in the south & west. The equivalent investment might build a small bypass or a stretch of a primary route whose AADTs would be dwarfed by passenger numbers on the Cork line as is.
Modest!! Irish Rail were looking for 250 million for a mere 20 minute speed up on the Cork line. Ironically after the government turned it down, IR still somehow found the money to do most of the work anyway!You've made this point multiple times and continue to do so, despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you that its implausible. Remember most of the environmental damage caused by a motor vehicle occurs during its construction.
A strawman argument, the motorways have already been built and exist and therefore the environmental impact already suffered. So now it is up to us to make the most of their existence.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22136
To_be_confirmed wrote: »I don't know why the viability of rail travel between the three largest cities is being questioned though. Much of the routes involved would remain for commuter travel anyway. Of the lines between Belfast and Cork, the part between Newry and Drogheda (at a push) and then Portlaoise and Mallow (and lets ignore the impact on Limerick) could be closed off for instance. I can't fathom a situation where that would happen. The viability of commuter rail and Intercity rail will remain closely connected for the forseeable future I think.
I agree, I don't think any of us is seriously suggesting that the main intercity routes be closed down.
For the sake of discussion, I'm just challenging the point raised that if intercity rail was shut down, that it would have a major economic impact. It really wouldn't.
I would however question any major new investment in Intercity rail. I think what IR needs to focus on now is making the most of what we have and focus on reducing their cost base, so that they can make intercity rail travel cheaper and thus more competitive.0 -
Inter City rail is my first choice for comfort and even speed , however I don't use it because of the cost. I can fly to London cheaper than I can take the train to Dublin.
Areas which would need addressing before I would use the train are reserved seating enforcement and off peak and advance booking price reductions.
I'm not a fan of the Mk4s but they are acceptable with a bit more effort on caring for them and the ICRs are fine.
As for speed improvements, well , we haven't the money and with our short journeys I don't think it's top priority to reduce journey times. 2 hours Dublin to Mallow is quite acceptable to me.0 -
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Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22136
Very good summary of the situation corktina, price and booking flexibility is by far the biggest problem.
IR needs to bring it's prices down (Cork to Dublin single max €20 with no extra booking fees etc. and even better €15).
Of course with IR's subsidies being cut and falling passenger numbers, they will need to fouc on reducing their internal cost structures in order to make this happen.0 -
fill the trains when they are empty at whatever price you can get seems a good move to me.0
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how many people coming from the airport actually travel from Heuston by train AS A PROPORTION of the throughput of the Airport ?
In other words, is there actually a demand for intercity services on the lines south and west or is the demand actually greater in other directions? My opinion is that the greatest part of the demand from the Airport would in fact be travel to the City and the various routes, rail and bus, urban and long distance, and best served by buses as now to the City Centre at no extra cost or if we had any money a LUAS-type line.
Bus Eireann and other long distance operators like Aircoach already use Dublin Airport as either a terminus or a major staging point for journeys around the country. It makes sense to me at least to have a railway service available at the biggest transport hub and entry point in the country.0 -
I wonder how long the MK4s will actually last...
I hope they're not going to be another disastrous purchase that will ultimately end up being replaced by 22000s.
Although, that being said, they're probably approaching the stage that they'll need a minor refurbishment soon enough.0 -
I usually get the train when my car is out of action but I got GoBus on Monday night to get from Cork city to Dublin.
The train was €43.99, GoBus was €12. It took 25 mins longer for the bus but I saved €30.
My previous issue with buses was lack of toilet, (it should be illegal to have intercity buses without toilet facilities IMHO) but GoBus had one.
Awesome service.0 -
How many of these where paying passengers v's DSP? Which is your point, make it cheaper and people will use it. If the majority of the people using it are DSP then it's a pointless service, this is for all train services as there's no point in the tax payer double subsidizing rail.
No point here really, I was just giving my own estimate as to how many pax were on board. For the record the majority of passengers looked youthful so I doubt they were using DSFA free travel.Did it depart from the stations on time or early? No point in arriving early if on time passengers miss it.
The train waited at all intermediate stops until the scheduled departure time. I've never been on a train service in Europe that didn't do this.
Never a truer word spoken.People are still driving like lunatics, just drive by a primary school at start or end times. The RSA can spout all the PR crap they like, the opening of hundreds of km of motorway and better car design is what's reduced are road fatalities.0 -
Stop the bullying and off-topic posting.Richard Logue wrote: »Foggy who has thanked your post would not be able to deliver his goods sold on adverts for free by train and would have to get the bus everywhere too?
Moderator0 -
T
Let me put that in context for you. Until GoBE reduced their schedule to bi-hourly a few weeks, ago, the combined capacity of the Aircoach and GoBE service to Cork is over 1,241,000 per year. And these are services that didn't exist a year ago.
The capacity of GoBus and Citylink to Galway 1.6 million per year.
The numbers for Limerick and Belfast are similar.
And those numbers are all based on 50 passenger single deckers. Upgrade them to double deckers and you double those numbers again.
If intercity rail was closed down (and I'm not saying it should) the existing bus services would be able to deal with the demand by upgrading from a single decker every hour to two double deckers per hour (every 30 minutes).
So really it isn't as bad as you make it out to be.
You're skirting over the crux of my point, which is that a significant investment will be required for that "upgrade" you speak of. That means more buses, more cars which is more environmentally unfriendly, not less so then you originally claimed.TNot in my experience, you can do Cork to Dublin by car even at peak times in about 2 hours 15 minutes to 2 hours 30 minutes, depending on where you are going to and from.
BTW the Newlands X upgrade is to start in a few months, removing even this bottlekneck.
That certainly doesn't tally with my experience which compromises attending League of Ireland football grounds across the Dublin area on a near bi-weekly basis from Cork. Off peak the times you mention are certainly achievable. On peak however train + bus/LUAS easily beat driving.
Newlands X might be on its way but Dunkettle isn't.Modest!! Irish Rail were looking for 250 million for a mere 20 minute speed up on the Cork line. Ironically after the government turned it down, IR still somehow found the money to do most of the work anyway!
It was actually €175m. IR didn't magic up any money, the level-crossings are still there.
To put that into context, thats the price of less then 2 small town bypasses.
For the same money for those bypasses you can have radically improved journey times from Dublin to all of the state's main urban area's.A strawman argument, the motorways have already been built and exist and therefore the environmental impact already suffered. So now it is up to us to make the most of their existence.
Its not a strawman argument to point out that most of the pollution from a car or bus in its lifetime occurs when it is being constructed? Do you get that? my point had nothing to do with the environmental cost of constructing motorways, it had to do with with the increase in pollution which would occur when you push people off the railways and onto cars and buses.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22136
You're skirting over the crux of my point, which is that a significant investment will be required for that "upgrade" you speak of. That means more buses, more cars which is more environmentally unfriendly, not less so then you originally claimed.
No skirting, more buses that will use less fuel per passenger then the existing trains do, so less emissions per passenger, simple.Its not a strawman argument to point out that most of the pollution from a car or bus in its lifetime occurs when it is being constructed? Do you get that? my point had nothing to do with the environmental cost of constructing motorways, it had to do with with the increase in pollution which would occur when you push people off the railways and onto cars and buses.
It is a strawman argument because again the motorways already exist, thus most of the pollution you speak of has already been produced. This point would only be valid before the motorways were built.0 -
No skirting, more buses that will use less fuel per passenger then the existing trains do, so less emissions per passenger, simple.
It is a strawman argument because again the motorways already exist, thus most of the pollution you speak of has already been produced. This point would only be valid before the motorways were built.
We could go around in circles discussing whether an argument is a straw man or not. Your own argument here about ending all IC rail is a pretty big straw man too, if not the biggest.0 -
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No skirting, more buses that will use less fuel per passenger then the existing trains do, so less emissions per passenger, simple.
That's presuming most of the 10m transition from train to bus. Seeing as demand remains for rail in spite of bus competition we can presume that the bus, for whatever reason, isn't appealing to these 10m.
As such its reasonable to suggest that a significant portion of those 10m will instead drive their car instead of taking the bus. Those extra millions of journies in single occupant car, as well as the extra buses required, will more then negate any supposed reducing environmental costs stemming from scrapping the railways.It is a strawman argument because again the motorways already exist, thus most of the pollution you speak of has already been produced. This point would only be valid before the motorways were built.
You're the one who's brought up the environmental costs of motorway construction, something I haven't touched upon myself.
To roll with your straw based point however, It is an indisputable fact that most of the pollution which a car will emit in its lifetime occurs when it is being built. By scrapping the IC railways you are pushing people into cars and car-dependancy.
I'm sure an enterprising transport economist will be able to fix up a spreadsheet or chart showing the impact the shutting of the IC railways would have on new car and bus sales. Suffice to say, presenting an argument that shutting the railways and shunting people into cars is more environmentally friendly then keeping the IC railways open is one of the more novel arguments presented on these hallow forums.0 -
I think BK has hit the nail on the head with his posting earlier on.
Basically Iarnród Éireann needs to stop thinking that it's running a French/German/British style network. It doesn't run a high speed intercity network and it needs to stop charging high speed prices. IÉs network is more akin to Belgium or the Netherlands. They run high frequency, high capacity intercity services at speeds that are not TGV style, much like the Dublin to Cork corridor at the moment.
The Benelux countries might not have TGV style services, but what they do offer people is dirt cheap fares for ALL, it doesn't matter whether you book on-line or buy in the station ten minutes before departure. Brussels to Antwerp is €7.10 single on the day with no restrictions, if you want to travel at rush hour no problem, just don't expect a seat! The simplicity of buying tickets and the price attracts people to the networks.
I'm not capable of doing the maths, but surely running half empty trains with passengers paying over €70 for walk up fares is making less money than running full trains with cheaper fares?0 -
to initiate an airline-style booking service where you can get a cheaper fare booking in advance which rises as the vehicle fills is entirely sensible, should involve no management input once enacted and would automatically give cheaper fares in quieter trains. The idea is to maximise usage and revenue. Charging 3 times the bus fare is not going to put bums on seats.
There 's no reason why such a booking service couldn't result in all-reserved seating and if there are more passengers than seats then what Management should do is to increase capacity NOT expect fare paying passengers to stand (obviously this all applies to Inter City). Just because people have always had to stand is no reason why it should continue.0 -
IÉ did have this exact service in place up until last year. I was able to book three weeks in advance and get up and down to Cork for €20 return. Fares then gradually rose in price as the date of departure grew closer and/or seats got filled.to initiate an airline-style booking service where you can get a cheaper fare booking in advance which rises as the vehicle fills is entirely sensible, should involve no management input once enacted and would automatically give cheaper fares in quieter trains. The idea is to maximise usage and revenue. Charging 3 times the bus fare is not going to put bums on seats.
With IÉs fantastic new system :rolleyes:, the cheapest fare is now €41.98.
I have a problem with this. I interrailed around France quiet a bit and it's a pain when you're told at the ticket desk that you can't reserve a train because it's full. Cue standing around Paris Gare de L'est for two hours waiting on the next available Strasburg TGV, when I would have happily stood for the two hours in the bar carriage of the first train that was "full". To me a seat is not a necessity.There 's no reason why such a booking service couldn't result in all-reserved seating and if there are more passengers than seats then what Management should do is to increase capacity NOT expect fare paying passengers to stand (obviously this all applies to Inter City). Just because people have always had to stand is no reason why it should continue.
As I said above, all rail tickets in Belgium are the same price, and the majority of people don't expect seats between 0700 to 0930, and 1600 to 1900. To buy extra carriages just to give everybody a seat at these times would be very uneconomical imo. People with families, the elderly and me as a tourist would know that they should travel after 1900 for a more enjoyable experience.
If Irish Rail had cheap intercity tickets then I think they should charge for a reservation, lets say €5 on top of the ticket price. For that €5 though the passenger should expect a train host minding the seats at all times and the reservation system needs to always work, unlike the system in use at present.0 -
Actually a good opportunity to highlight a problem with the reservation system on IÉ as I see it now.
My parents will be travelling Dublin to Cork tomorrow with my sister. My parents have the DSFA free pass but my sister hasn't so she booked the train on-line instead. IÉ have automatically reserved a seat for my sister even though she will be sitting in an unreserved seat instead with my parents*. This means that until the train departs Dublin tomorrow my sister will effectively be taking up two seats. Why couldn't irishrail.ie give her the option of NOT reserving a seat?
*I'm aware my parents could have reserved seats beside my sister for an extra fee on-line, but they'd rather arrive at the station early to get a seat rather than pay extra.0 -
it's only because standing has always been permitted that you expect to be allowed to stand now. You can't stand on a Coach or a Plane because it's dangerous, as is potentially standing on a train. It should be consigned to history. It would entail a sea-change I realise but as an aspiration it would be no harm to work towards all-reserved all-seated accommodation on intercity trains.
As regards the "booking office" incident and having to wait, we can't be far off everyone having the facility to book online and then turning up at the time the train goes rather than turning up on spec for a train.0 -
it's only because standing has always been permitted that you expect to be allowed to stand now. You can't stand on a Coach or a Plane because it's dangerous, as is potentially standing on a train. It should be consigned to history. It would entail a sea-change I realise but as an aspiration it would be no harm to work towards all-reserved all-seated accommodation on intercity trains.
I just don't see it as dangerous. I've stood on TGVs going at 350km/h to take phone calls/go to the buffet etc without a problem.
Until office workers gain rights to proper flexitime then I think standing on rush hour trains will never cease to exist. If you watched the recent British Railway documentary on BBC then you might remember the woman shouting out the window of a FGW MK3, "it should be illegal to pack us on like this" she shouted. I thought to myself, what a stupid woman, who forced her on to that train in the first place??0 -
As regards the "booking office" incident and having to wait, we can't be far off everyone having the facility to book online and then turning up at the time the train goes rather than turning up on spec for a train.
In an ideal world that would be fantastic. In reality though Ireland is a small country and anybody I know has family/friends down the country or up in the big smoke. Last minute parties and get togethers happen and the idea of internet booking goes out the window. Not to mention the elderly and ad-hoc business travellers.
Fair enough, you make rush hour trains more comfortable, but how many off-peak passengers do you lose because they couldn't be bothered with the hassle of making reservations? I can just never see it working in Ireland tbh.0 -
BenShermin wrote: »The Benelux countries might not have TGV style services, but what they do offer people is dirt cheap fares for ALL, it doesn't matter whether you book on-line or buy in the station ten minutes before departure. Brussels to Antwerp is €7.10 single on the day with no restrictions, if you want to travel at rush hour no problem, just don't expect a seat! The simplicity of buying tickets and the price attracts people to the networks
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/reforms-proposed-to-cut-sncb-losses.htmlRailway Gazette 25 June 2012 wrote:Last year the group’s accumulated debts reached €3bn, with rail freight arm B-Logistics reporting a €185m loss. According to Magnette, annual losses are expected to exceed €400m if nothing is done.
Fares can be dirt cheap if someone else will carry the can - and remember that's a mainland European railway with all the economies of scale that come with 1435mm gauge and interconnection for medium-distance travel any direction other than west in to the sea.0 -
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BenShermin wrote: »I just don't see it as dangerous. I've stood on TGVs going at 350km/h to take phone calls/go to the buffet etc without a problem.
Until office workers gain rights to proper flexitime then I think standing on rush hour trains will never cease to exist. If you watched the recent British Railway documentary on BBC then you might remember the woman shouting out the window of a FGW MK3, "it should be illegal to pack us on like this" she shouted. I thought to myself, what a stupid woman, who forced her on to that train in the first place??
it's the same as on a plane or a coach, standing is fine until it hits something or has to brake in an emergency...that's why I said POTENTIALLY dangerous. I'm not talking about commuter trains, that would be unrealistic and the speeds are much less, I'm talking about Intercity, there should be no need to stand on these.0
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