Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

Versus the city center which has the Maynooth commuter line, other commute services, the Dart and about 50 bus routes running through it which are of a much greater population, so I'm not surprised that people drive there as it would be a more direct better option.

True not everyone goes into the city center but the numbers of people who would have to go via the City center to Heuston is vastly higher than those who would have a direct link. Of course if Heuston and Connolly were linked together by rail then this would make the whole thing more attractive of course to everyone!

Pretty much anyone on the North side is going to have to go from the city center and anyone on the east of the city too. I live on the North and Heuston I avoid simply because it's an annoyance to get there. If I could get a direct train there I'd do it.

For what it's worth I use train and bus for many journeys i take, but Heuston's location IS an issue to me for services from there so it's part of the reason I prefer the bus, if the Cork route for instance left from Connolly, I'd be more likely to take it.

Luas Connolly-Heuston, not saying your worng as your right but people adding that cost to get to city centre for getting the train is just not fact as people pay to get into city centre to get Aircoach or Gobe thats my point.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Luas Connolly-Heuston, not saying your worng as your right but people adding that cost to get to city centre for getting the train is just not fact as people pay to get into city centre to get Aircoach or Gobe thats my point.

Yes, many people pay to get into the City Centre or the Aircoach/Gobus/GoBe etc but far more have to pay to get to the City Centre by bus dart or luas and then must pay again to get out to Heuston.

What I mean is that the same people who pay to get into the City Centre for the express buses will have to pay extra to get out to Heuston for the train so it is quite right to include the city centre add-on as part of the fare for train journeys terminating/beginning in Heston.

Grandeeod

CIE should have sold the Heuston site and built an IC station in Spencer Dock instead. Plenty of space and could have easily incorporated the Dart underground and commercial/housing development. Just imagine a river fronting station with pedestrian access to the south city. Throw in the luas with quick access to connolly and bus aras.

No vision.

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

CIE should have sold the Heuston site and built an IC station in Spencer Dock instead. Plenty of space and could have easily incorporated the Dart underground and commercial/housing development. Just imagine a river fronting station with pedestrian access to the south city. Throw in the luas with quick access to connolly and bus aras.

No vision.

There was a plan in the 80s to build a transport hub in the city centre. It ended up becoming Temple Bar instead.

Grandeeod

Karsini wrote: »

There was a plan in the 80s to build a transport hub in the city centre. It ended up becoming Temple Bar instead.

That was the 70s of course and was recently well documented on this forum. Interestingly both ideas (the one Ive mentioned is not mine and was only an opinion I read here years ago) suffered from a lusty greed for property development. Look where that brought us to.

Getting back on topic (and I appreciate that I may have started a particular debate) The only reasonable argument Ive heard for retaining the IC network is if we destroy it now, it costs a truckload to replace in the future. Funnily enough, the idea of Spencer Dock being developed as a new and imposing major IC station may have played a part in developing the service. The site was ripe for rail development, but it succumbed to greed over national interest. Its unlikely to be fully developed now with Treasury holdings in the ****e and CIE on the begging bowl again. Epic fail.

Personally I find it so so difficult to come to terms with the misguided and greed riddled way that the rail network was handled. Heuston should have been the first place that was offloaded to the crazed property developers. Spencer Dock could have been a really magnificent rail site with all Inter City services based there. Even now post Celtic Tiger, the site is in the thick of things (just about). I may have said this before but the rail network needs a serious rebrand and with that comes pushing infrastructure. The extra journey time to the site would be more than compensated for by existing transfer times and the location itself. This was state owned land we are talking about and railway land. Its not my idea, but I read it here a long time back and thought it was brilliant. After looking at the site and whats left of it, it still has potential, but the luas routing to the Point village is at grade and obviously didn't consider it. The plan was office blocks and apartments with DART Underground filling the gap. But realistically it was a perfect central location for a new and impressive IC station that would make people want to take the train.

Image is everything and then you build on the benefits of the site. IFSC, National convention centre, O2 arena, access to city centre, even Croke park and the Aviva stadium. Spencer Dock had it all.

Solair

But we needed loads of over-priced shoe-box apartments. They were much more important than things like infrastructural projects, or the long-term viability of the national fiscal system.

Richard Logue

Spencer Dock would be a far better location for sure. It could have in theory been fed by the Phoenix Park tunnel pending the construction of the Interconnector, however the Interconnector would have really needed four lines to allow a pair of IC lines as well as the DART.

bk

On the question of Heuston v City Centre, it is very easy to see which is more popular, the direct buses from Galway will stop at Hueston if requested. I've never seen more the 3 people get off at Hueston, the vast majority get off in the city center.

The out of way location of Heuston is an issue, if Irish Rail were clever they would include a free bus/luas transfer between Hueston and Connolly in the price of an intercity ticket. Thus partly eliminating the issue.

monument

Solair wrote: »

But we needed loads of over-priced shoe-box apartments. They were much more important than things like infrastructural projects, or the long-term viability of the national fiscal system.

Spencer Dock? Shoe-box apartments?

Solair

monument wrote: »

Spencer Dock? Shoe-box apartments?

That's what's built on almost every site.

belcampprisoner

train travel is expensive in ireland

belcampprisoner

53 euro return plus 12 euro for bike

Richard Logue

belcampprisoner wrote: »

train travel is expensive in ireland

Come to England. We'll show you expensive train travel. Where are you going anyway? The bike should go free. It's a ridiculous extra charge when you consider in other countries bikes are carried at no extra cost.

Jamie2k9

Richard Logue wrote: »

Come to England. We'll show you expensive train travel. Where are you going anyway? The bike should go free. It's a ridiculous extra charge when you consider in other countries bikes are carried at no extra cost.

Bike spaces are limited unless they can fold up.

bk

Bikes are carried for free on most coaches if space is available.

Why do people keep comparing rail ticket prices with the UK.

Why not compare it with the Netherlands where the max ticket price to go anywhere in the country is €20 and cheaper in most cases.

Judgement Day

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Bike spaces are limited unless they can fold up.

And why is that? Yes, a triumph of design over utility - a quote from IE's 22000 publicity 'sleek carriage design' - wow I bet that really had the punters rolling in. :rolleyes:

More here: http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=124&n=172

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Bikes are carried for free on most coaches if space is available.

Why do people keep comparing rail ticket prices with the UK.

Why not compare it with the Netherlands where the max ticket price to go anywhere in the country is €20 and cheaper in most cases.

I'd love to know where this max €20 fare is available.

I'm looking at a booking screen here for a train trip on http://www.ns.nl from Amsterdam to Maastricht on the 24th April. It's offering me a one way same day fare of €23.80 for a 2nd class seat. Similarly, a trip from Eindhoven to Groningen on the same day is €24.60 single. A fare with a 20% and 40% discount is offered which is less than the mystical €20 fare but it doesn't tell you how to obtain these discounts, thus making them rather elusive (This I discovered is available via a purchased discount card which costs €55).

Curiously, their online E tickets are payable only via a Dutch online pay service called IDEAL effectively making it unavailable to non nationals.

http://www.ns.nl/en/travellers/arrange-and-buy/tickets-and-passes/the-e-ticket

While these rates are somewhat cheaper than a walk up fare on Irish Rail, they are in a country with a state subsidised network available to private operators, large volumes of passengers (16 million living in half the space of Ireland) and no expansive DSP style free travel scheme lumbered on their operators. Lastly, almost all of their network has a top speed of just 140KM/H, the exception being some new high speed services.

Apologies for the tangents but you did ask for us to compare to it and not the UK

Jamie2k9

Judgement Day wrote: »

And why is that? Yes, a triumph of design over utility - a quote from IE's 22000 publicity 'sleek carriage design' - wow I bet that really had the punters rolling in. :rolleyes:

More here: http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=124&n=172

I'm more anoyed that these bike racks have taken out 4 seats per carrage, intercity is primarly passengers with very few bikes but then again ICR are not realy for commuter routes which is why there is a problem.

steamengine

When bus / coaches can do Dublin - Cork in 2h : 45m, while stopping at all the towns the train does to pick up and set down, - when there is no doubt about whether one can have a pee or not at will - when they have First Class - when they have a catering trolley - when they have their own dedicated road space with the same separation for safety, - when they can hit 100mph - then perhaps they can take over the crown. In the meantime they are merely princes in waiting and pretenders to the throne. The king might be a bit under the weather at the moment but he is not dead - long live the king.

end of the road

steamengine wrote: »

long live the king.

and may god bless him and give him a healthy life for all time, god bless the railway

Grandeeod

steamengine wrote: »

When bus / coaches can do Dublin - Cork in 2h : 45m, while stopping at all the towns the train does to pick up and set down, - when there is no doubt about whether one can have a pee or not at will - when they have First Class - when they have a catering trolley - when they have their own dedicated road space with the same separation for safety, - when they can hit 100mph - then perhaps they can take over the crown. In the meantime they are merely princes in waiting and pretenders to the throne. The king might be a bit under the weather at the moment but he is not dead - long live the king.

The King is absolutely dead. The poor decisions made during the Celtic Tiger era, will ultimately kill it. Hate saying it, but the CIE property development fiasco was a campaign against IC rail travel. It was actually a campaign against developing the rail network for the better. It was really a campaign to develop the network to a level that CIE was more affordable to the Government. Commuter routes and little else. IC is in real trouble and I have no faith in the CIE group doing anything tangible to address it. That will suit the Government.

Irish politicians are far more interested in gaining a vote from a daft proposal rather than the ultimate development of the existing network. In the middle of this is CIE, who are sunk in a tradition of inconsistent management, unions and making decisions based on unpredictable Governance. Its a mess!

MGWR

Grandeeod wrote: »

The King is absolutely dead. The poor decisions made during the Celtic Tiger era, will ultimately kill it. Hate saying it, but the CIE property development fiasco was a campaign against IC rail travel. It was actually a campaign against developing the rail network for the better. It was really a campaign to develop the network to a level that CIE was more affordable to the Government. Commuter routes and little else. IC is in real trouble and I have no faith in the CIE group doing anything tangible to address it. That will suit the Government.

Irish politicians are far more interested in gaining a vote from a daft proposal rather than the ultimate development of the existing network. In the middle of this is CIE, who are sunk in a tradition of inconsistent management, unions and making decisions based on unpredictable Governance. It's a mess!

Trying to write a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Commuter operations are the least affordable of all rail operations, with the high wear and tear and maintenance intensity. Properly-adminstered long-distance operations make more. Freight makes the most, but given the inherent conflict of interest when government spending has two types of transport mode dependent on it, one will be favoured over the other, i.e. until the favoured one reaches its limit, which it is already at.

Given the country's relationship with the EU, the national Government will eventually vote itself out of existence. (Not for the first time in the land's history, mind you.) The transport infrastructure of the country is not necessarily inextricably bound up with such a fate. The EU has been making moves towards pushing liberalisation upon most (not all) state-owned railways, and this will come to Ireland eventually.

bk

Losty Dublin, what you missed is that almost everyone in the Netherlands uses the OV-Chipkaart, their equivalent of the Leap card and the maximum price of a single train tickets on this card is €20, some even go down to €10 :

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/reizen/tarieven/instapenbasistarief/

Basically the prices you found, are the more expensive prices they charge for people who they are trying to get off the old way of paying and onto the ov-chipkaart. Kind of like the cheaper leap fares versus cash.

Also note that the €20 is the boarding rate, the max you are charged when you initially tag-on, you will be refunded when you tag-off depending on distance, so the train ticket can even be much cheaper.

Also this allows you to use multiple trains within one journey and also transfer onto trams and buses. So incredibly good value compared to Ireland.

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

When bus / coaches can do Dublin - Cork in 2h : 45m, while stopping at all the towns the train does to pick up and set down, - when there is no doubt about whether one can have a pee or not at will - when they have First Class - when they have a catering trolley - when they have their own dedicated road space with the same separation for safety, - when they can hit 100mph - then perhaps they can take over the crown. In the meantime they are merely princes in waiting and pretenders to the throne. The king might be a bit under the weather at the moment but he is not dead - long live the king.

it's not Prince Coach that former King Train has to fear, it's Emperor Car who will finish him off. Yes, it has no toilet , even an old guy like me almost never has to stop enroute for the jacks, but it can out pace the train to Dublin even if it sticks to the limit because it goes door to door. It can have catering if I take it with me and it is all first class with my own compartment with noone to annoy me, a choice of entertainment and climate control.I get my own guaranteed reserved seat and I can bring 4 of my mates along for free!

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Losty Dublin, what you missed is that almost everyone in the Netherlands uses the OV-Chipkaart, their equivalent of the Leap card and the maximum price of a single train tickets on this card is €20, some even go down to €10 :

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/reizen/tarieven/instapenbasistarief/

And with good reason why I missed it; there is rather a scant mention of it or its applicable fares on the NS website, somewhere you'd actually expect to find same first hand.

bk wrote: »

Basically the prices you found, are the more expensive prices they charge for people who they are trying to get off the old way of paying and onto the ov-chipkaart. Kind of like the cheaper leap fares versus cash.

Also note that the €20 is the boarding rate, the max you are charged when you initially tag-on, you will be refunded when you tag-off depending on distance, so the train ticket can even be much cheaper.

Also this allows you to use multiple trains within one journey and also transfer onto trams and buses. So incredibly good value compared to Ireland.

You will also find that they bundle discount cards onto these passes, including those given to OAPs and students. This along with the massive state back up and subventions pumped into their railway system allows them to run the card on the scope that it is, along with cheaper fare. As yer man once said, so long as I'm not paying for it

Con Logue

corktina wrote: »

it's not Prince Coach that former King Train has to fear, it's Emperor Car who will finish him off. Yes, it has no toilet , even an old guy like me almost never has to stop enroute for the jacks, but it can out pace the train to Dublin even if it sticks to the limit because it goes door to door. It can have catering if I take it with me and it is all first class with my own compartment with noone to annoy me, a choice of entertainment and climate control.I get my own guaranteed reserved seat and I can bring 4 of my mates along for free!

And very soon you will be paying an Emperor's Ransom for petrol or diesel. Since 2002 the price has doubled, we aren't very far off having a national conversation about at what price point discretionary driving won't happen. €2 a litre? €3? Or more? There's no reason why we ultimately won't be paying the price of a packet of cigarettes for a litre of diesel.

L1011

Thats odd, could have sworn the price was currently falling... Topaz must have been having a sale?

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

Thats odd, could have sworn the price was currently falling... Topaz must have been having a sale?

Two cent from my last fill up, which was at Easter weekend. Slaughter the best lamb and let's celebrate I could show you receipts from a few years back when 70 cent a litre petrol was considered dear, fuel inflation would bring tears to a glass eye of the trioka.

L1011

More than a few years... Been over 85 as long as I've been driving unless it dipped hugely when I was in the UK

The bulk of increases are domestic caused too - duty and vat. The oil price component is very low

corktina

Con Logue wrote: »

And very soon you will be paying an Emperor's Ransom for petrol or diesel. Since 2002 the price has doubled, we aren't very far off having a national conversation about at what price point discretionary driving won't happen. €2 a litre? €3? Or more? There's no reason why we ultimately won't be paying the price of a packet of cigarettes for a litre of diesel.

probably true, but , wait a minute, does the price of fuel for a train or a bus never rise? What's more I think you'll find that the class 201s use the same amount of fuel they used to 10 years ago or more, whilst the car is getting more fuel efficient all the time, and what about all those electric cars that are being introduced, and the hybrids? Do you imagine car technology wont keep evolving? Train technology is meantime caught in a timewarp....