Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Richard Logue

The rising price of Diesel may ultimately force the electrification of the main IE routes in the longer term.

corktina

Richard Logue wrote: »

The rising price of Diesel may ultimately force the electrification of the main IE routes in the longer term.

...or kill it if we can't find the capital....

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

probably true, but , wait a minute, does the price of fuel for a train or a bus never rise? What's more I think you'll find that the class 201s use the same amount of fuel they used to 10 years ago or more, whilst the car is getting more fuel efficient all the time, and what about all those electric cars that are being introduced, and the hybrids? Do you imagine car technology wont keep evolving? Train technology is meantime caught in a timewarp....

That is correct but the most efficient car is going to use multiples of diesel in comparision to a train or bus per head carried. Similarly, an electrican car hasn't a patch on the energy efficiency of a Dart or Luas. A car would need to be at the hundreds of miles to the gallon to have a comparible energy consumption level. While the motor engine has caught up a lot in relation with fuel efficiency, much of the gains have been be eaten up with enhanced interior comforts and on board electronics along with our love with larger engines and vehicles over the years so whiel in car performance is better it hasn't saved as much in the pocket that you'd expect.

corktina

Yes but the guy is saying that rising fuel costs will tilt the balance in favour of the train when in fact rising fuel costs will push car technology towards being more efficient, the opposite effect. We are stuck with class 201s for the next decade or more, whilst cars improve. Rising fuel prices therefore are more of a threat to the train than the car.

bk

And do remember that bus coaches use less diesel per passenger then trains. So their already very cheap ticket prices will rise slower then rail will.

Add to that the fact that coaches typically get replaced much more frequently then trains and also benefit from the same advancements in fuel efficiency technology (hybrid engines, etc.) that goes into cars.

Many buses (though not coaches that I know of) already operate using biofuels and gas.

Furthermore people already drive the Nissan Leaf (a fully electric car) from Cork to Dublin, there is an excellent blog about a Nissan Leaf owner here in Ireland, it works well.

Rocky Bay

According to the Financial Times of 15/4/13 "...The U.S. rail industry has reached a crossing point in its debate over making a transition from running diesel fuel to adopting liquefied natural gas. Natural gas power could slash costs for US railways which operate the world's largest and busiest rail freight network compared with existing diesel fuel". LNG locomotives before electrifing the Dublin/Cork line? I have not figured out how to do "links" yet otherwise I would have provided it. The article appeared on 15/4/13 titled "US rail picks up converts for LNG" by Robert Wright.

bk

Rocky Bay wrote: »

According to the Financial Times of 15/4/13 "...The U.S. rail industry has reached a crossing point in its debate over making a transition from running diesel fuel to adopting liquefied natural gas. Natural gas power could slash costs for US railways which operate the world's largest and busiest rail freight network compared with existing diesel fuel". LNG locomotives before electrifing the Dublin/Cork line?

Given how relatively new our locomotives are it is unlikely that they will be replaced in the short to medium term.

In the long term I think we are far more likely to see them go to LNG, hydrogen or pure battery powered then electrify the lines at all. I honestly think it is very unlikely we will undergo the massive capital cost of electrifying our rail lines.

You are correct, the US will lead the way on this. Given the massive size of their network they are very unlikely to electrify, so they will look for and develop cheaper alternatives and we will probably buy those alternatives a few years down the line when they become cheaper and reliable.

Polar101

A lot of this discussion sounds like it could be from the 1950s - trains are outdated, there is this new fancy way of traveling called coaches, soon people will drive their own automobiles.

corktina

not at all, there a little thing called MOTORWAYS on the scene now....

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

it's not Prince Coach that former King Train has to fear, it's Emperor Car who will finish him off. Yes, it has no toilet , even an old guy like me almost never has to stop enroute for the jacks, but it can out pace the train to Dublin even if it sticks to the limit because it goes door to door. It can have catering if I take it with me and it is all first class with my own compartment with noone to annoy me, a choice of entertainment and climate control.I get my own guaranteed reserved seat and I can bring 4 of my mates along for free!

It looks like your Emperor Car has no clothes, according to this report :-

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0409/380405-air-quality/

bk

steamengine wrote: »

It looks like your Emperor Car has no clothes, according to this report :-

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0409/380405-air-quality/

And what has that to do with electric cars?

And do you really believe people will give up on their cars?

I'm saying this as a cyclist, heavy public transport user and a person who doesn't own a car out of choice.

But I'm also a realist and I know that the automobile isn't going away. Instead we have to find ways to make it more environmentally friendly and also make public transport more attractive.

Con Logue

Polar101 wrote: »

A lot of this discussion sounds like it could be from the 1950s - trains are outdated, there is this new fancy way of traveling called coaches, soon people will drive their own automobiles.

..and killing the railways to save them.. sounds familiar

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

It looks like your Emperor Car has no clothes, according to this report :-

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0409/380405-air-quality/

quite apart from it being a fact that air quality in Ireland is pretty good generally, the same point made earlier applies....car technology is improving all the time and diesel trucks/buses have made huge strides in recent years and are not the bete noir they once might have been, and yet we have the same old class 201s and will have for a long time. Such articles actualy strengthen the road lobby vs rail lobby position

Richard Logue

It does feel like 1950s Ireland all over again. Even the same old arguments against railways are being trotted out.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

And do remember that bus coaches use less diesel per passenger then trains.

Source for this nugget you like to quote?

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

quite apart from it being a fact that air quality in Ireland is pretty good generally, the same point made earlier applies....car technology is improving all the time and diesel trucks/buses have made huge strides in recent years and are not the bete noir they once might have been, and yet we have the same old class 201s and will have for a long time. Such articles actualy strengthen the road lobby vs rail lobby position

I don't think Taisce would agree with you there re the link I posted or perhaps you think it's all bull.

corktina

perhaps I do but what I said was that road transport is developing and improving whilst rail is not.

Same old arguments Mr Logue? well then you should have had plenty of time to think up some counter arguements, lets hear even just one!

steamengine

bk wrote: »

And what has that to do with electric cars?

And do you really believe people will give up on their cars?

I'm saying this as a cyclist, heavy public transport user and a person who doesn't own a car out of choice.

But I'm also a realist and I know that the automobile isn't going away. Instead we have to find ways to make it more environmentally friendly and also make public transport more attractive.

Electric cars haven't yet taken off here so to quote that link is fair enough as it refers to the status quo. The most environmentally advanced form of mass public transport we have at the moment IMO is the Dart and Luas which essentially are powered 15% by renewables - one could say every seventh Dart is wind powered. Electrified rail is the way forward, again IMO, no fancy as yet unproven technologies - just copy what our neighbouring countries are doing.

corktina

i'd agree about electric railways IF you have the capital to build them and IF you have enough passengers to make them economic. There is some scope around Dublin to electrify more lines, but I sincerely doubt that a case could be made for anything else. What our neighbours are doing is hardly relevant.

Richard Logue

corktina wrote: »

perhaps I do but what I said was that road transport is developing and improving whilst rail is not.

Same old arguments Mr Logue? well then you should have had plenty of time to think up some counter arguements, lets hear even just one!

Counter arguments to what? It's the same old broken record from the same old people again and again. You don't like freight rail and rarely travel by train, bk loves buses and everyone pushes their straw man view of the world and expects everyone to agree with them.

We need but don't have an integrated transport system where local buses feed trains - CIE as a whole can't or won't deliver this.

We needed investment in the railway infrastructure to deliver higher than legal road speeds and more capacity, especially on the Galway line. The Belfast route needs higher speeds and more capacity to ensure suburban trains aren't blocking Inter City trains. Meanwhile the motorway network has had money thrown at it and some landowners have cleaned up...

Frankly I'm bored of the endless dialogue of the deaf on this subject.

Con Logue

Richard Logue wrote: »

Counter arguments to what? It's the same old broken record from the same old people again and again. You don't like freight rail and rarely travel by train, bk loves buses and everyone pushes their straw man view of the world and expects everyone to agree with them.

We need but don't have an integrated transport system where local buses feed trains - CIE as a whole can't or won't deliver this.

Frankly I'm bored of the endless dialogue of the deaf on this subject.

Indeed. Counter arguments only work if those with a fixed interest are prepared to concede any points. I could research a heap of stuff about gas turbine and electric technology - which isn't my field of study, history is - waste hours putting it up here, but the burden of proof needed by Corktina et al would wear a hole in a year. I really don't see that as my purpose in life, though some seem to have endless hours in the day to put their point of view across.

In short, I will choose what I want to post and most certainly don't feel obliged to react to grandstanding to an imaginary external audience.

corktina

Richard Logue wrote: »

Counter arguments to what? It's the same old broken record from the same old people again and again. You don't like freight rail and rarely travel by train, bk loves buses and everyone pushes their straw man view of the world and expects everyone to agree with them.

We need but don't have an integrated transport system where local buses feed trains - CIE as a whole can't or won't deliver this.

We needed investment in the railway infrastructure to deliver higher than legal road speeds and more capacity, especially on the Galway line. The Belfast route needs higher speeds and more capacity to ensure suburban trains aren't blocking Inter City trains. Meanwhile the motorway network has had money thrown at it and some landowners have cleaned up...

Frankly I'm bored of the endless dialogue of the deaf on this subject.

what are you talking about? What the guy said was that rising fuel prices would tip the balance in favour of rail and several poster have averred that the opposite is the case....where did the rest of that come from? did you read the latest posts at all?

check out the thread title btw...

Richard Logue

Now you're just being slippery. I have better things to do with my time today than waste it arguing with you on any railway related matter.

Con Logue

corktina wrote: »

what are you talking about? What the guy said was that rising fuel prices would tip the balance in favour of rail and several poster have averred that the opposite is the case....where did the rest of that come from? did you read the latest posts at all?

Just as a refresher, here is what I actually said.

And very soon you will be paying an Emperor's Ransom for petrol or diesel. Since 2002 the price has doubled, we aren't very far off having a national conversation about at what price point discretionary driving won't happen. €2 a litre? €3? Or more? There's no reason why we ultimately won't be paying the price of a packet of cigarettes for a litre of diesel.

I haven't mentioned rail in this or tipping any balance anywhere. The substantive point is that the cost of fueling a private car has doubled since 2002 and in my view given that they aren't making any more oil, only exploiting what is already there, it isn't going to get less scarce then.

At what point does unlimited car usage become unaffordable? That is my substantive point.

corktina

and my point is that whilst the car is moving towards being more efficient and less oil-dependent , the cork dublin line is saddled with class 201s for the forseeable future and thus less likely to become "king" regrettably (for I really would like to see rail improve but fear for it's future without a lot of investment).

Thus my answer to the question in the title is "probably no".

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Source for this nugget you like to quote?

http://www.carbonfund.org/how-we-calculate

Intercity trains are measured to emit almost twice as much CO2 per passenger mile. Lots of other links show the same.

Of course we are talking about Diesel trains here, electric trains is a different story.

It makes sense, trains are pretty heavy, much heavier then an equivalent buses. And it takes a lot of fuel to drive all that weight.

For instance an Empty mark 4 carriage weighs 43,000 kg and carries 62 passengers.

For comparison a Van Hool TX17 Acorn can carry 63 passengers and weighs just 24,000 kg.

And remember we aren't taking into account the weight of the train engine!

Another aspect to consider is that full heavy 8 carriage trains have to be pulled up and down the country even at off peak times when they are almost empty. While coaches can be added or taken more easily based on demand.

n97 mini

Not sure about the maths there, for a few reasons.

Train is heavier so takes more fuel to get moving, but once moving, it has only one front surface cutting through the air, and some designs can be quite aerodynamic indeed. 8 coaches will have 8 front surfaces. Secondly the friction on rails would be a tiny fraction of that of tyres on a road.

However, CO2 is only one emission. Diesel engines emit carcinogenic fumes which pose a more immediate risk to human health.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

However, CO2 is only one emission. Diesel engines emit carcinogenic fumes which pose a more immediate risk to human health.

And trains diesel engines emit the same fumes.

In fact the current coach engine emission rules Euro 5 are stricter then trains and from this year all new coaches will be using vastly stricter standards again, Euro 6

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/hd.php

Cool Mo D

bk wrote: »

http://www.carbonfund.org/how-we-calculate

Intercity trains are measured to emit almost twice as much CO2 per passenger mile. Lots of other links show the same.

That link is for US intercity rail, which carry very small numbers of passengers very long distances, and use much heavier carriages then European railways. Irish Rail alone carries more passengers than Amtrak every year.

The figures are not valid for an Irish context.

BenShermin

I think it's frankly obsurd to say that this debate is like something out of the 1950s. We live in a world of Scania Irizar and Volvo 9700 travel these days, try get a coach as comfortable as either of the two of them in the 1950s. Also try to get that thing called a motorway to put them on in the 1950s. If I was to read Beeching's report on British Rail in the 50s/60s it mainly dealt with closure of branch lines, UK intercity was never at threat so I just don't understand this 1950s argument on this thread.

Nobody on the pro-bus side of this thread is calling for the closure of the railways so I don't know why the pro-rail side is getting worked up. If anything BK and other simular posters are actually giving great input ideas on how rail could be improved.

Would I as a GoBÉ user be on a bus today for 3hrs if the railway done the trip in 2hrs and the fare was €30 return? Not a chance.