Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Richard Logue

Ben you, bk and foggy_lad thanked Grandeeod for this post earlier in the thread so it is somewhat misleading to claim no one was advocating the end of Inter City rail travel.

As to Beeching, had his second report been accepted by the British Railways Board the GB Inter City network would have been reduced to a rump of what it is today.

Grandeeod wrote: »

I love train travel. However we can argue all night about the if, buts and whens. Currently and as things stand in Ireland, the motorway network has proven how small the country actually is. There is no side stepping this reality. Until the completion of the motorway network, rail was favourable but only due to the diabolical nature of our road network. Now IC rail travel is being exposed as the poorly invested in predecessor of the modern road that plugged a hole in a road deficit and is no longer relevant in its current guise.

But as a small nation can we afford or justify the expensive catch up scenarios that other European nations followed post motorway? Irelands railways have always been unique and always will be. We can only examine their future once we are prepared to accept their uniqueness in a European context. We are a small island that lacks a real level of population density. We have invested in road infrastructure that many believe is OTT. But its there and shrinking journey times as I type. Perhaps road transport is the IC solution in Ireland and rail should be developed only at a commuter level?

Im accutely aware that CIE would love to close most of the rail network if the bean counters got their way and I hate admitting that a lot of our rail network is now redundant. However, if we can't afford it and don't actually need most of it, why perlong the inevitable? As a rail lover, I firmly believe that Ireland and its uniqueness in rail terms, combined with its size and modernized road network has reduced our need for rail travel to a mere commuter use.......unless we have money to burn and we may never have again.

Richard Logue

BenShermin wrote: »

Would I as a GoBÉ user be on a bus today for 3hrs if the railway done the trip in 2hrs and the fare was €30 return? Not a chance.

I think we can both agree on this one. This will need new investment and the will to implement it.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

I think we can both agree on this one. This will need new investment and the will to implement it.

The whole issue is that Irish Rail/C.I.E. will never sanction or allow investment or improvement for a return of only €33.20 return for Galway-Dublin, They can't afford to!

Richard Logue

foggy_lad wrote: »

The whole issue is that Irish Rail/C.I.E. will never sanction or allow investment or improvement for a return of only €33.20 return for Galway-Dublin, They can't afford to!

I'm not so sure foggy. There have been fare promotions across the IC network before and I am certain there will be again.

We know the passenger numbers went up when the fares were lower, but the one area that IE don't seem to capitalise on is non stop trains to the key destinations Cork, Galway, Belfast and Dublin.

Back in the 70s there were some non stop trains from Dublin to Cork and Belfast and vice versa, maybe there should be some more, timed to ensure that business travellers get to these cities before 9am?

L1011

I'd need non-stop services and car hire available at the other end - (in general) business travellers aren't using the coaches either, they're in cars, particularly since the domestic flights ended.

Dublin-Cork flights ran unsubsidised and really ended due to a destructive price war between Ryanair and Aer Arann ensuring it wasn't viable for either of them. The fact that Aer Lingus are now heavily selling the idea of connecting to TATL services in Dublin means there's another reason there might be flights again. If someone restarts these, the plane will be king again - for business travellers anyway.

I used to fly to ORK fairly frequently - I could be with a customer in Bandon in 2 hours from my house and not tired, vs 3 hours and destroyed, with 600km closer to a service on the car and a hell of a lot of diesel used.

Jamie2k9

MYOB wrote: »

I'd need non-stop services and car hire available at the other end - (in general) business travellers aren't using the coaches either, they're in cars, particularly since the domestic flights ended.

Dublin-Cork flights ran unsubsidised and really ended due to a destructive price war between Ryanair and Aer Arann ensuring it wasn't viable for either of them. The fact that Aer Lingus are now heavily selling the idea of connecting to TATL services in Dublin means there's another reason there might be flights again. If someone restarts these, the plane will be king again - for business travellers anyway.

I used to fly to ORK fairly frequently - I could be with a customer in Bandon in 2 hours from my house and not tired, vs 3 hours and destroyed, with 600km closer to a service on the car and a hell of a lot of diesel used.

Can't see Cork-Dublin bieng viable in the current climate, can't depend on all T/A traffic when SNN is close enough to ORK. The train will be King as we already know that current timetables could be cut to 2h25 if not a little less and a non stop service could be done in 2h15m however if the Cork-Mallow section of line was improved to have higer speeds it would help and with the bridge works taking place next week or two it should be an improvment as the TSR will be dropped in by the end of May. The TSR's at Monstervan were fixed and track between Sallins and Kildare replaced to allow 100mph running as well as the small section between Nass and Hazelhatch which needs repalcing then Cork could have some very good journey times.

At best we may get Cork-Dublin down to 2h10m non stop with the current stock operating but no better.

Con Logue

MYOB wrote: »

I'd need non-stop services and car hire available at the other end - (in general) business travellers aren't using the coaches either, they're in cars, particularly since the domestic flights ended.

Dublin-Cork flights ran unsubsidised and really ended due to a destructive price war between Ryanair and Aer Arann ensuring it wasn't viable for either of them. The fact that Aer Lingus are now heavily selling the idea of connecting to TATL services in Dublin means there's another reason there might be flights again. If someone restarts these, the plane will be king again - for business travellers anyway.

I used to fly to ORK fairly frequently - I could be with a customer in Bandon in 2 hours from my house and not tired, vs 3 hours and destroyed, with 600km closer to a service on the car and a hell of a lot of diesel used.

There are structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

L1011

Con Logue wrote: »

There are serious structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

Getting from Kent to anywhere else in Cork than the city centre takes as long. Business travellers will generally have fasttrack (oh god how I miss that when travelling now).

I would never, ever consider getting a coach if travelling for work but would consider the train if a number of things were fixed - journey time, cleanliness and enforcement of passengers not acting like idiots would be critical ones.

markpb

Con Logue wrote: »

There are structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

Dublin airport is a strange beast - there are time when security is inexplicably slow but most of the time, the security queues at T2 are about five minutes. My wife commuted to/from London for some time last year and between online check-in and no checked luggage, she could arrive at the airport half an hour before departure and be comfortably on time.

And of course, some people live close to the airport (we lived a fifteen minute bus trip away) so claiming that getting to the airport is a disincentive is equally true for Conolly or any bus gate.

That's said, I'm not sure it'll ever truly compete with rail or bus - it would always have been a niche player.

Jamie2k9

If Aer Lingus/Aer Arann were to restart the route then passengers get buses from aircraft to terminal whch can take some time at DUB.

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If Aer Lingus/Aer Arann were to restart the route then passengers get buses from aircraft to terminal whch can take some time at DUB.

They're not limited to permanently using the non-contact gates in the 30s terminal. Particularly as they used to use the contact stands on Pier A in times past - as Loganair currently do for their CFN service.

Jamie2k9

MYOB wrote: »

They're not limited to permanently using the non-contact gates in the 30s terminal. Particularly as they used to use the contact stands on Pier A in times past - as Loganair currently do for their CFN service.

They get better rates for busing passengers.

Con Logue

markpb wrote: »

Dublin airport is a strange beast - there are time when security is inexplicably slow but most of the time, the security queues at T2 are about five minutes. My wife commuted to/from London for some time last year and between online check-in and no checked luggage, she could arrive at the airport half an hour before departure and be comfortably on time.

And of course, some people live close to the airport (we lived a fifteen minute bus trip away) so claiming that getting to the airport is a disincentive is equally true for Conolly or any bus gate.

That's said, I'm not sure it'll ever truly compete with rail or bus - it would always have been a niche player.

Not wanting to side track things, but my experiences with travelling on a monthly basis via FR to and from Bristol and Luton over a three year period put me off Terminal 1 (and FR) permanently. Christ the tediousness. I would pay extra to go BA or EI from T2 now.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

I'm not so sure foggy. There have been fare promotions across the IC network before and I am certain there will be again.

We know the passenger numbers went up when the fares were lower, but the one area that IE don't seem to capitalise on is non stop trains to the key destinations Cork, Galway, Belfast and Dublin.

Back in the 70s there were some non stop trains from Dublin to Cork and Belfast and vice versa, maybe there should be some more, timed to ensure that business travellers get to these cities before 9am?

Ok as far as promotions go they are not enough, Fares need to be walk up fares s they are on the buses and to compete Dublin City Centre-Cork (including the luas/bus add-on) needs to be under €40 return, Galway needs to be under €30 return, Waterford €20 and Carlow €12 return, When a new operator starts non-stop buses to Limerick fares to Limerick will need to be dropped also.

Non-stop trains won't work unless you can persuade all the travellers going the full distance to travel on one or two trains per day or maybe two trains can be sent, one a stopping service and one non-stop. looking at the buses to Cork and Galway there is demand at very unusual times which will never be catered for by IE due to the extra costs involved. but there is also sustained demand throughout the day rather than just the peak time buses.

If IE shift to serving non-stop passengers they will lose most of their passengers who are not going end to end but are travelling shorter distances along the route and when these people/areas are not being served there is less fares/ less passengers and less reason for the railway.

Non stop peak time trains are a good idea but not at the expense of the bread and butter services and as we all know two trains can't run side by side on single track.

devnull

T1 security is abysmal in the mornings, since they moved the entrance to the side of the terminal - very often there is only three or four lanes in operation and in the mornings it's taking approx 30 minutes to get through on most occasions, twice in the last 18 months it's took me almost 45 minutes.

Losty Dublin

Con Logue wrote: »

There are structural problems with the airport as serious option for Dublin to Cork - getting to DUB, queueing for security, queueing to get on, getting off at the other end and going from ORK to Cork itself. Tick tock the lot of it.

Whatever about the odd delay you'd get from trains and buses being late, neither of them are subject to the risk of unpredictable delays in getting on and off your mode of travel or walking a distance to get to your seat.

bk

Richard Logue wrote: »

Ben you, bk and foggy_lad thanked Grandeeod for this post earlier in the thread so it is somewhat misleading to claim no one was advocating the end of Inter City rail travel.

Richard, yes I thanked his post, that is because I agreed with most of it, in particular the first two paragraphs, but not necessarily all of the last.

He is right, Ireland is a very small country, the only reason trains were previously successful was because the roads were awful, but now that we have a very good Motorway network, it has shown up how inadequate our rail service is and the years of over investment.

He is also right the question that even if we had the money (we don't) should we spend it on some post motorway high speed network like other countries. I personally agree with him, that we simply don't have the population size, density or demographics to justify that.

I disagree that intercity rail should be closed down. Instead Irish Rail need to focus on reducing their costs, thus allowing them to reduce ticket prices and drive take up.

As Foggy says "promotions" are no good, nor is booking days in advance to get cheaper tickets. Walk up fares need to be permanently max €40 return to Cork, preferably €30. Again follow the Netherlands model.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

Ben you, bk and foggy_lad thanked Grandeeod for this post earlier in the thread so it is somewhat misleading to claim no one was advocating the end of Inter City rail travel.

As to Beeching, had his second report been accepted by the British Railways Board the GB Inter City network would have been reduced to a rump of what it is today.

Slow down Richard! My post was explosive, yes, but more an attempt to stimulate debate. It has done that, but subsequent posts of mine have clarified my position in an attempt to stop any hysteria. Obviously they have gone ignored.

Do not use my original post as a weapon to beat others because you yourself have already "liked" subsequent posts that I made clarifying my position.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

Back in the 70s there were some non stop trains from Dublin to Cork and Belfast and vice versa, maybe there should be some more, timed to ensure that business travellers get to these cities before 9am?

Oh dear! Maybe I've been reading this forum too long. Maybe I have read the original P11 website and forum for too long also! The whole "before 9am" thing was discussed to death as far back as 2003. It was actually derided then in an era of massive investment. Now that the **** has splattered onto the fan, I find it amusing that valid opinion in the early noughties is now being rolled out again.

You are right of course, but I tend to get a little pissed off, when I read it again 10 years later. Many of the solutions required to develop our rail network, were proposed by P11, but abandoned by its current guise. I've no affiliation except for following developments, but I have to say that a lot of the content on their original site has more meaning now than it did then. I've come to the party a little late, but really do appreciate what they tried to do. I am only saying this because in the present situation, their originality back then seems more relevant than ever. As a moderate observer I have no problem paying them the credit they deserve.

I assume there is a problem with the whole P11 thing on this site, just from years of reading. I don't have any time for the current RUI incarnation. My opinions on this forum have evolved from the P11 juggernaut, that caught my attention years ago with its straight to the point and from the hip opinion.

Perhaps if they had maintained some momentum they would be ideally placed to represent the network now in the face of financial restraints and a period of uncertainty.

Con Logue

Grandeeod wrote: »

Oh dear! Maybe I've been reading this forum too long. Maybe I have read the original P11 website and forum for too long also! The whole "before 9am" thing was discussed to death as far back as 2003. It was actually derided then in an era of massive investment. Now that the **** has splattered onto the fan, I find it amusing that valid opinion in the early noughties is now being rolled out again.

You are right of course, but I tend to get a little pissed off, when I read it again 10 years later. Many of the solutions required to develop our rail network, were proposed by P11, but abandoned by its current guise. I've no affiliation except for following developments, but I have to say that a lot of the content on their original site has more meaning now than it did then. I've come to the party a little late, but really do appreciate what they tried to do. I am only saying this because in the present situation, their originality back then seems more relevant than ever. As a moderate observer I have no problem paying them the credit they deserve.

I assume there is a problem with the whole P11 thing on this site, just from years of reading. I don't have any time for the current RUI incarnation. My opinions on this forum have evolved from the P11 juggernaut, that caught my attention years ago with its straight to the point and from the hip opinion.

Perhaps if they had maintained some momentum they would be ideally placed to represent the network now in the face of financial restraints and a period of uncertainty.

Maybe I spent too long out of Ireland and have lost the ability to "get" certain posting styles on Boards, but I do struggle with the idea that anyone could be "pissed off" that there was a discussion on another internet forum over ten years ago, and that was the end of the matter.

I recall P11 as an attempt to square modern railway practice with objections to the railway as such from the likes of TCD's Sean Barrett - who if he had been listened to, and he did have a lot of support in the Sindo and elsewhere - would have destroyed Dublin by maintaining low density sprawl in the greater Dublin area, the old four houses to the acre densities, and removing the railways altogether in favour of the Eastern Bypass. Los Angeles would have had nothing on us. Kevin Myers used to pontificate in the Times and the Indo about crack brained schemes such as turning the intercity network into roads, forgetting about the relative footprint of a mainly single track network in relation to the land grab necessary for any road.

I am sure plenty of farmers, road hauliers and private bus owners salivated at the prospect of getting all this gravy from the dismantling of the rail network and probably still do.

Where I am coming from is fairly simple - I want the railway to continue to play a role in transit in this country. Hand in hand with that in terms of planning greater densities need to be done in urban areas up and down the country, and combat the issue of rural sprawl. We will have a huge problem in a few years time when we will have an army of isolated eighty-somethings in mansions in bogs up and down the country unable to drive anymore.

Big Bad An Taisce may not be so big and bad - they aren't messing about when they talk about unsustainable development - but one of the national characteristics of this place is short term personal gain at the expense of the greater good. We don't seem to do Society any better than Margaret Thatcher did. But perhaps too many vested interests are threatened if we attempted to do joined up urban/rural planning and related transport planning for the best fit for private cars and public transport.

Not all the rail network will be sustainable - the North and South Tipperary lines are increasingly marginal unless in the unlikely event the locals decide to use them, and the lousy planning of the WRC - where in my view the biggest farce was not having an urban regeneration policy hand in hand with provision of new stations in order to have a sustainable customer base for the line - but to even suggest that we can throw any more of the railway away is perverse. The existence of the railway only affects those who want to make a bit more money on its absence.

Richard Logue

Folks there's clearly a lot of passion out there and all due credit to grandeeod and bk for the constructive things they have said in their posts here.

There seems to be somewhat of a consensus that the status quo in our railways needs to be changed. I think we are yet to see what will happen to IE now that the company is being split and open access kicks off.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

And trains diesel engines emit the same fumes.

Trains have the advantage that fully electric zero emissions systems are available right now, and have been for quite some time.

nokia69

n97 mini wrote: »

Trains have the advantage that fully electric zero emissions systems are available right now, and have been for quite some time.

and it won't be long before we see fully electric buses

corktina

both of which emit their emissions at the point of origin (power station, wind generator factoy [plus transport across the world,) etc.

Losty Dublin

nokia69 wrote: »

and it won't be long before we see fully electric buses

Been and gone, actually. Belfast had it's trolley bus system and many cities worldwide still use them. There are a few battery powered buses on test as well but they are literally a few.

n97 mini

corktina wrote: »

both of which emit their emissions at the point of origin (power station, wind generator factoy [plus transport across the world,) etc.

This related specifically to harmful emissions from diesel engines, most of which are created from the way diesel engines work (ignition by compression).

n97 mini

nokia69 wrote: »

and it won't be long before we see fully electric buses

Electric coaches?

corktina

n97 mini wrote: »

This related specifically to harmful emissions from diesel engines, most of which are created from the way diesel engines work (ignition by compression).

it's no less true though. Diesel engines are getting much greener nowadays, progressively so. I think batt.ery disposal will be more harmful to the enviroment , almost as much as the polution caused building power sattions and wind farms

A long way off topic now...

Rocky Bay

And to bring the topic just a little further off...in todays N.Y. Times: Fueling Up for the Long Hall. The Trucking Industry Is Set to Expand Its Use of Natural Gas. By Diane Cardwell and Clifford Kraus in the Business Day section- 23/4/13. " This month, Cummins, a leading engine manufacturer, began shipping big, new engines that make long runs on natural gas possible. A skeletal network of refueling stations at dozens of truck stops stands ready".

steamengine

There is nothing green about diesel fuel as the major component of its exhaust gas is Carbon Dioxide (CO2) which is one the main gases responsible for global warming. As Diesel is a hydro-carbon fuel the production of CO2 is unavoidable.