Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

corktina

nobody is wishing that. It's simply that without a sea-change in management attitudes and work practises, many routes will lose out to the competition and by the time gridlock of the roads occurs will have ceased to be.

Solair

I was looking at equivalent UK journeys to Cork-Dublin.

The closest match in terms of distance and populations is probably

Glasgow to Aberdeen.

Greater Glasgow 1,199,629 (metro: 2,850,000 .. a lot bigger than greater Dublin)

Aberdeen : 217,120
Distance 233.7 km
Train time : 2h:30 to 3h:55!!

First train at 05:56 (2h50)
Last train: 21:42 (2h41)
First train to Cork 07:00 and last train at 21:00

There are 16 direct services per day and about 4 with 1 change.
Dublin-Cork has 14 services per day (direct) and 1 timetabled as with 1 change.



If you added 1 service each way at the extremities of the time table, the services would be close to identical.

The route's operated by Bombardier / Adtranz Turbo star trains which are identical spec to the 22000s in terms of speed i.e. 100mph and probably considerably less comfortable (nosier and not as nice an interior) than either 22000 or MK4 services in Ireland.

I think that's a realistic comparison with Cork-Dublin.

At times, I really do think we get a bit ridiculous with comparisons between Irish Intercity services and services connecting huge metropolitan areas in the UK or France etc.

...

In France, it actually compares to Bordeaux (over 1 million) - La Rochelle (metro area of 250000) or something like that. Similar hinterland in western France and Ireland / Scotland in terms of low population densities and large numbers of small towns.

I'm not in anyway 'dissing' Irish cities or trying to underestimate them but I think we have to be realistic too.
The Cork-Dublin service does need a couple of extra services each way at the early side of the timetable and the late side. They could be operated by 22000s in smaller formation than the full MK4 set if they needed more efficiency as the demand wasn't huge.

Other than that, I think it's actually quite a good service overall these days and compares extremely well with with actual equivalents.

Most French services over those kinds of routes are operated by 160km/h TER DMUs in many cases or EMUs in more dense areas that might hit 200km/h or by loco-hauled "Intercities" trains which are mostly quite old, but comfy.

That's the typical standard of service on most of those routes in Western France :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5OvcE9B03c

e.g. that's Quimper - Nantes - Bordeaux

They may be older, slower trains, but I would say though is that SNCF has them kitted out with ultra comfy seats, laptop power sockets, loads of leg room, some of them even have kids play areas!
The older non-refurbished ones are quite eh.. 'basic' on board.. Still comfy, but quite ancient.

The upgraded services tend to be to longer-distance destinations like Bordeaux-Nice, which is probably more aimed at tourism/holiday makers (mostly domestic). So, it's all about 'slowly' trundling along (80-125mph) in comfort rather than TGV speeds.

end of the road

Solair wrote: »

Dublin-Cork has 14 services per day (direct) and 1 timetabled as with 1 change.

so where is the change for the one non direct service to cork? or do you mean 1 allows a change to either limerick or tralee only?

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

so where is the change for the one non direct service to cork? or do you mean 1 allows a change to either limerick or tralee only?

The 17:05 Dublin-Tralee direct service stops in Mallow, passengers for Cork change to the 19:30 Mallow-Cork.

corktina

Karsini wrote: »

The 17:05 Dublin-Tralee direct service stops in Mallow, passengers for Cork change to the 19:30 Mallow-Cork.

not many though as the 17.00 arrives 14 minutes before the 17.05 and would be the train of choice for Mallow

corktina

corktina wrote: »

not many though as the 17.00 arrives 14 minutes before the 17.05 and would be the train of choice for Mallow

Yeah I couldn't see many people using it in fairness.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

To all those "rail lovers" who want to shut down large chunks of the network I would say be careful what you wish for. I would agree that Limerick-Ballybrophy's future looks doubtful and the Ennis-Athenry line needs to improve passenger numbers but if places like Ballina, Westport and Tralee were to lose their services they won't get them back again.

I assume you are referring to my post as I said I loved rail travel. I don't want to shut anything down in particular. But I can face up to the reality that maybe post motorway Ireland does't need and/or cannot afford an IC rail network. Things have changed since the 50s/60s. Rail closures back then were set against a background of low car ownership, undeveloped bus transport and poor road infrastructure. If the Cork mainline was closed tomorrow, can you see any major negative impact on the country both now and in a reasonably near future?

As an experiment, lets all step back from all the pro rail thinking, look at the country in terms of size, population and road infrastructure, then honestly explain your reasons for retaining the IC rail network.

Richard Logue

Since you live in Spain maybe you could give us a sketch of how inter city transport works in Spain and if they have switched from rail to long distance buses? Foggy who has thanked your post would not be able to deliver his goods sold on adverts for free by train and would have to get the bus everywhere too?

Okay flippancy over. For a start there would need to be a replacement of the IC rail network with more buses to cater for the patrons of the existing rail services. More traffic on our roads and even with the motorways in place that would still mean that private car drivers would have to be stuck behind buses overtaking each other on our two lane motorways.

How do we cope with mass travel on big events like the All Ireland finals? At least one county in the finals usually has their fans travelling by train and even last year when Donegal won there were many Donegal fans who travelled to Dublin via train from Sligo. How do we deal with long distance commuters or business travellers? Foggy complained the other day that his train from Carlow was packed. Close the line you say, and let's put them all on a bus?

More drivers on more cars as well, it all adds up. Ireland's attraction as a tourist destination would suffer to an extent as well. By all means shut the Cork mainline, it would be a sure sign that Ireland is truly closed for business and for leisure.

At some point in the future we may well pull ourselves out of recession. When that happens the roads will be choked again and if we decide to destroy the Inter City railways for reasons of ideological purity we will be wondering why we allowed ourselves to make such a crazy and shortsighted decision.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

Since you live in Spain maybe you could give us a sketch of how inter city transport works in Spain and if they have switched from rail to long distance buses?

Firstly, where I live has nothing to do with the discussion. Secondly, I don't recall ever saying I lived in Spain. Thirdly, Spain is a large country with a huge population that can justify IC rail travel based on population density as a starter. In my opinion your post is an attempt to discredit the point Im making. If you are pro rail and believe that the network in Ireland has a future, then articulate an answer without trying to discredit me. Its not about me, its about my opinion and no matter where I am in the world, the opinion stands and only the opinion is open to correction/debate etc.

I'd probably be ridiculed if I gave my reasons so I'll keep out of this one.

Richard Logue

Grandeeod wrote: »

Firstly, where I live has nothing to do with the discussion. Secondly, I don't recall ever saying I lived in Spain. Thirdly, Spain is a large country with a huge population that can justify IC rail travel based on population density as a starter. In my opinion your post is an attempt to discredit the point Im making. If you are pro rail and believe that the network in Ireland has a future, then articulate an answer without trying to discredit me. Its not about me, its about my opinion and no matter where I am in the world, the opinion stands and only the opinion is open to correction/debate etc.

I've now answered your post in my own edited post. But wherever you are it strikes me that you're far enough away not to be affected by the destruction of our railways that you seek. Although I'm in London I am back in Ireland on a monthly basis and use Inter City railways in Ireland regularly. (Adds and I pay my way fully - no discounts or freebies for me)

Con Logue

Grandeeod wrote: »

Firstly, where I live has nothing to do with the discussion. Secondly, I don't recall ever saying I lived in Spain. Thirdly, Spain is a large country with a huge population that can justify IC rail travel based on population density as a starter. In my opinion your post is an attempt to discredit the point Im making. If you are pro rail and believe that the network in Ireland has a future, then articulate an answer without trying to discredit me. Its not about me, its about my opinion and no matter where I am in the world, the opinion stands and only the opinion is open to correction/debate etc.

Opinions are subjective and therefore do not have an objective existence. So therefore no opinion has an independent and verifiable existence.

In other words no-one is obliged to argue from anyone else's grounds other than their own. You have an opinion and it is a fallacy to assume that arguing a contrary point of view from the grounds you have laid out is going to automatically happen.

Night Night.

Grandeeod

Karsini wrote: »

I'd probably be ridiculed if I gave my reasons so I'll keep out of this one.

Don't feel that way. Express your opinion. I would love to see the rail network prosper in Ireland. However I am prepared to deal with a worst case scenario based on sound reasoning and not an anti rail bias, borne out of vested interests and a general, "we don't care about it anyway" attitude. I genuinely believe that we are now in an era where a lot of the rail network could conceivably be closed over the next few years. I believe that CIE have a blueprint since the late 70s to close a lot of routes, one of which has gone in the last few years. They are currently struggling with the motorway impact. In European terms we saw massive leaps in rail speeds and services to combat the motorway impact, but Ireland is different geographically and financially.

Grandeeod

Con Logue wrote: »

Opinions are subjective and therefore do not have an objective existence. So therefore no opinion has an independent and verifiable existence.

In other words no-one is obliged to argue from anyone else's grounds other than their own. You have an opinion and it is a fallacy to assume that arguing a contrary point of view from the grounds you have laid out is going to automatically happen.

Night Night.

Attack the post and not the poster seems to be the way things happen around here, therefore pop away at my opinion, no probs, but where I live has nothing to do with it and I'm entitled to point that out.

Richard Logue

In my opinion Irish Rail needs to do some key things if they are to invest for the long term future of the railway network:

1: Build a heavy rail line to Dublin Airport and run most Inter City services from there. South and West services should be connected by a spur to the Drumcondra-Phoenix Park tunnel until money is found for the Interconnector

2: Extend passing loops or even double the Portarlington-Galway line

3: Consider future electrification of the Dublin-Cork, Portarlington-Galway lines and the Belfast line. Diesel fuel is becoming increasingly expensive and IE may find that electrification is ultimately cheaper.

All these will take money that we have not got right now, however the Airport line would be a relatively quick win and would revolutionise Inter City rail transport. Tourists, locals and Business visitors would be able to travel directly to Cork, Galway, Kerry and the North from the Airport.

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

Don't feel that way. Express your opinion. I would love to see the rail network prosper in Ireland. However I am prepared to deal with a worst case scenario based on sound reasoning and not an anti rail bias, borne out of vested interests and a general, "we don't care about it anyway" attitude. I genuinely believe that we are now in an era where a lot of the rail network could conceivably be closed over the next few years. I believe that CIE have a blueprint since the late 70s to close a lot of routes, one of which has gone in the last few years. They are currently struggling with the motorway impact. In European terms we saw massive leaps in rail speeds and services to combat the motorway impact, but Ireland is different geographically and financially.

Well they're mostly personal reasons so probably not relevant from a "why should the railways be left running just for you?" point of view.

The main one is that I'm a regular traveller to Tralee. At present, rail is still the faster option as there's no express services down that way. You'd be looking at anything up to 6 hours on a bus compared to 4 by rail. If the railway line to Tralee was closed I'd have to consider flying to Farranfore instead.

Secondly I've been sick on long distance bus travel but I always feel fine when travelling by rail. It (literally) left a bad taste in my mouth re bus travel. I can feel very claustrophobic on buses too.

The last one is something I only just realised recently. I'll be heading to Kerry again next month and intend to take my bike with me. I'm not aware of any bus service that would accommodate one. I know Bus Éireann certainly don't.

Grandeeod

Richard Logue wrote: »

I've now answered your post in my own edited post. But wherever you are it strikes me that you're far enough away not to be affected by the destruction of our railways that you seek. Although I'm in London I am back in Ireland on a monthly basis and use Inter City railways in Ireland regularly. (Adds and I pay my way fully - no discounts or freebies for me)

I am not seeking a destruction of our railways. I am merely presenting a case, a possibility,a necessity or inevitability. I was hoping we could discuss it. I have no say in the realization of it, but I am interested in the opinions of pro rail, anti rail and those that couldn't really care less.

Richard Logue

Grandeeod wrote: »

I am not seeking a destruction of our railways. I am merely presenting a case, a possibility,a necessity or inevitability. I was hoping we could discuss it. I have no say in the realization of it, but I am interested in the opinions of pro rail, anti rail and those that couldn't really care less.

I was thinking there about the ever increasing cost of fuel that means that for me here in London it costs €80 to fill up my car. Now I can get 600km on a full tank but for me to drive on my own a long distance is not cost effective. It's cheaper for me to travel by train here in the UK and in Ireland. It's a different story with my full compliment of wife, kids and cat and daughter's shoes...!

All joking aside, it is becoming increasingly more and more expensive to drive long distances and the railways in Ireland do offer that alternative. Of course there are bus purists and train haters who don't want that option but the train does offer a bit of comfort, food of sorts and a toilet.

Looking ahead 10 years we may have got ourselves out of a recession but fuel prices may still be spiralling upwards - we must in my opinion maintain and ultimately extend (in the right places) the rail network to anticipate future demand. Closing lines is in my opinion short term thinking that will do more harm than good.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

In my opinion Irish Rail needs to do some key things if they are to invest for the long term future of the railway network:

1: Build a heavy rail line to Dublin Airport and run most Inter City services from there. South and West services should be connected by a spur to the Drumcondra-Phoenix Park tunnel until money is found for the Interconnector

2: Extend passing loops or even double the Portarlington-Galway line

3: Consider future electrification of the Dublin-Cork, Portarlington-Galway lines and the Belfast line. Diesel fuel is becoming increasingly expensive and IE may find that electrification is ultimately cheaper.

All these will take money that we have not got right now, however the Airport line would be a relatively quick win and would revolutionise Inter City rail transport. Tourists, locals and Business visitors would be able to travel directly to Cork, Galway, Kerry and the North from the Airport.

By adding about two hours to already very slow intercity services. there is no capacity for traffic from an airport spur through the city and out to Heuston. Trains coming through the park tunnel heading west/southwest/southeast have to be reversed back into Heuston for passengers there which would take too long.

Richard Logue

Platform 10 at Heuston leads to the tunnel. No need for reversing.

And where are you getting two hours extra from? It used to take 40 minutes to Dun Laoghaire (a roughly similar distance) via the tunnel when the boat trains ran up until the early 80s. Existing IC services would get to Heuston from the South and West in the same time.

end of the road

Richard Logue wrote: »

where are you getting two hours extra from?

he just likes to pluck things out of thin air, if he gives a number, go for half that.

Richard Logue wrote: »

It used to take 40 minutes to Dun Laoghaire (a roughly similar distance) via the tunnel when the boat trains ran up until the early 80s. Existing IC services would get to Heuston from the South and West in the same time.

in fairness their were less trains back when those boat trains ran, these days i'd say an hour because of dart and the amount of commuter trains.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

Platform 10 at Heuston leads to the tunnel. No need for reversing.

And where are you getting two hours extra from? It used to take 40 minutes to Dun Laoghaire (a roughly similar distance) via the tunnel when the boat trains ran up until the early 80s. Existing IC services would get to Heuston from the South and West in the same time.

Platform 10 is not in use because it is not in the main station and is way too far to expect intercity passengers to walk with heavy cases, elderly relatives screaming babies etc. start using Platform 10 for intercity from Heuston and you may as well order the lifting train now.

even 40 minutes extra is too long especially with the 10 minute walk to a very miserable and wide open platform 10 especially when the buses get you to the city centre and then the airport in the same time as you plan getting trains to the city centre.

Richard Logue

I would expect that if there ever comes a time when the Phoenix Park tunnel were used to its potential we would need a Platform 11 (!) to cater for the traffic going in and out of the tunnel.

Certainly if money were found to build a spur to the Airport the same project would remodel Heuston as necessary.

Richard Logue

foggy_lad wrote: »

Platform 10 is not in use because it is not in the main station and is way too far to expect intercity passengers to walk with heavy cases, elderly relatives screaming babies etc. start using Platform 10 for intercity from Heuston and you may as well order the lifting train now.

even 40 minutes extra is too long especially with the 10 minute walk to a very miserable and wide open platform 10 especially when the buses get you to the city centre and then the airport in the same time as you plan getting trains to the city centre.

Sorry but I find it hard to take your straw man arguments seriously. If ever there came a time to reroute trains via the tunnel to allow airport traffic any railway project worth its salt would find the right way to manage the passenger footfall.

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

I would expect that if there ever comes a time when the Phoenix Park tunnel were used to its potential we would need a Platform 11 (!) to cater for the traffic going in and out of the tunnel.

Certainly if money were found to build a spur to the Airport the same project would remodel Heuston as necessary.

Maybe Veolia could open a Luas spur to the faraway platform 10 as part of the plan as it is certainly farther than Connolly station is from Busaras.

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

Platform 10 is not in use because it is not in the main station and is way too far to expect intercity passengers to walk with heavy cases, elderly relatives screaming babies etc. start using Platform 10 for intercity from Heuston and you may as well order the lifting train now.

Airports can manage it, they just use travelators. No reason why they couldn't be used in railway stations.

John Dough

The nasty remark about free travel passes is not warranted ,trains buses etc run on demand and obviously there is no demand for late night trains BE could do withsome extra services from Portlaoise to Dublin early in the mornings nothing until 8am when Dublin. Bus co have hourly services all night very handy for the early airport flight or if you start at 7am in the city.
Overall though have to say with our population IE and BE do a good job and the newer intercity trains are lovely (not the Cork one smelly toilets no sockets and dirty outside worn out seats poor with fi etc.) Well done CIE!!

Solair

The MK4 fleet definitely needs sockets and a good deep clean and reupholstering.

The choice of carpets and fabrics was quite poor. They've worn out very fast and the carpets are too lightly coloured and show up loads of stains

Con Logue

Grandeeod wrote: »

Attack the post and not the poster seems to be the way things happen around here, therefore pop away at my opinion, no probs, but where I live has nothing to do with it and I'm entitled to point that out.

Haven't said anything in my post about where you live.

bk

Richard Logue, I believe you overestimate the impact that closing down the intercity lines would have.

While I'm not suggesting for a moment that we actually do that, it wouldn't be a major deal if it did happen.

Prior to GoBE cutting their schedule in half, I previously estimated that the new GoBE and Aircoach services already have enough capacity to carry all of the daily Irish Rail passengers on the Cork to Dublin route.

Now you are partly correct, there probably wouldn't be enough capacity at peak time and some new coaches would be needed, but not as many as you might think. Remember they could almost double their capacity by switching to Double Decker coaches.

Yes there would also be more cars on our motorways, but again our motorways were way over specced and it would easily be able to handle the extra numbers with no noticeable reduction in journey times or increase in congestion.

Match days or concerts wouldn't be too big a deal either. Again many (if not most) people already go to such events by private hire coach buses anyway. You would just need a few more of them.

There would be issues serving places like Tralee and Mallow, which currently have no direct non stop service coach services. It would certainly be awful for them to go from a 4 hour train journey to a 6 hour bus journey. But if trains no longer served these areas, then it would make new direct non stop bus services to these places much more feasible.

If you argument is the environment or the high price of fuel, then that is more of an argument for bus coach then train.

Bus coaches are more fuel efficient (and thus less polluting) then diesel trains.

Bus coaches tickets are also much cheaper then train tickets.

If you are arguing that rising oil prices will impact buses, remember that it will impact diesel trains more as they use more fuel per passenger then buses.

Now again I'm not saying we should do this, just that it is true that if the intercity rail network was closed down, it wouldn't have a big impact.

Karsini, most of the private bus companies will take your bike for free as long as there is enough space (there almost always is). Not sure what BE's policy is, but I'd guess if you asked the driver nicely, he would allow it assuming enough space.

Ironically on the Cork route, the ticket for the bike on the train is almost as high as an adult ticket on the bus!!