Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

BenShermin

I haven't found time to post here in a long time, but I feel such a thread deserves merit.

Last Monday evening I had to use the train between Killarney and Dublin as the intercity buses between these two areas leave a lot to be desired. I took a train that connected into the 2020 Cork to Dublin train at Mallow. As somebody who is now a complete convert to GoBÉ I was pleasantly surprised with how good the train has become on this route.

I was very sceptical of the new timetable on the Cork to Dublin route that was introduced in January. I left my Killarney to Cork train at Mallow on a freezing cold rainy night and expected a long wait, to my amazement the Dublin train arrived two minutes early. Within minutes I was sitting in my reserved seat in the lovely warmth of the MK4 train.

It wasn't long before I was able to sit back and enjoy my few bottles of beer (something I can't do on the bus). The journey has become a lot smoother and they seem to have cut down slightly on the annoying automatic announcements. The toilets were spotless en-route and the cheerful train host kept a frequent presence throughout the journey. I estimated that the whole train had less than 50 passengers on board. I noticed the train arrived four minutes early into Thurles and a minute early into Portlaoise.

The train arrived into Heuston at 2247, eight minutes ahead of it's advertised arrival of 2255. Within minutes I was off the train and onto the luas, the 145 bus was also awaiting passengers. I was standing on OConnell Street at 2305 left shocked with how fast and efficient the whole service was! I had time for a quick pint in town before my last bus home.

Sitting over my pint I thought about the train journey verses a bus journey.

If there was a 2000hrs Aircoach, that bus would have arrived in Bachelor's Walk at 2300, I would have also been in O'Connell Street for 2305. Leaving the Aircoach bus stop in Cork at 2000 would have had me in Kent Station in time for the 2020 train. So both methods of travel now take the exact same amount of time IMO. (Never mind that take your seat 20mins before departure crap that IÉ come out with, nobody abides by that anyway!).

I also thought about the fact that the train was early into Mallow, Thurles and Portlaoise and if it was timetabled properly, then the train could have been quicker than the bus. Quick maths suggests to me that non-stop trains from Dublin to Cork could probably do the journey in 2hrs15 without acceleration/deceleration required to stop en-route. Such a time would definitely beat the bus.

So my question is, could the train once again become the main performer on this route? If IÉ brought fares down to €30 return on this route, and introduced non-stop trains, could that offer real competition to the bus?

I'll be using GoBÉ next week on the Dublin to Cork route, the only reason being is because it's cheaper than the train. If the train was €30 return I'd be back to it in a heartbeat after my positive experience on Monday. Would anybody else on the forum be tempted, and want other improvements do you think could be made to the train service?

With the Aircoach and GoBÉ threads on this forum it's time for this thread to offer healthy competition and debate .

n97 mini

Personally I find two things wrong with the train on this route, and in general. The price, and the times.

The price you've already touched on. In the UK you can pay £4 or £40 for the same journey, depending on how far in advance you buy. It should be the same here... I have no problem with the £40 ticket, as long as there is the opportunity for early birds to get the £4 ticket.

Timing is problem on the whole network, imho. The last train leaving the 2nd biggest city in RoI for the biggest city in RoI should not be at 2020. Instead it deserves a time like 0220. The same with the last train from Belfast, the last train to Maynooth (on Sundays in particular).... and so on. Timing on IE strikes me as being dictated by the Catholic church: they need to get punters home in time for a decade of the rosary followed by bed, as that's what's best for them.

bk

Well I think all of us here have always said that the train would be much more competitive if it was faster and cheaper.

I've always said that in order to be competitive, the train has to be able to do Cork to Dublin in 2 hours (thus 2hours 20 to O'Connell St) and max €40 return for a walk up ticket, €30 even better.

And non of this book 7 days in advance bs + €3 in online booking and cc fees. It needs to be just as flexible as the bus.

n97 mini also touches on a very important point of no late night trains.

So yes, it is possible for the train to be the best, but in the end it isn't currently and as you mentioned you will be back on GoBE next week because it is significantly cheaper and good enough.

BenShermin

You'd be very lucky these days to get £4 fares on UK intercity. £12 is the cheapest these days on the likes of London to Manchester or York for example. I won't argue though, the intercity service across the pond is tenfold better than IÉ.

I've always argued there'd be business for a 90N service from town to Heuston connecting with late evening services to the country. Even in the UK though I can only think of London to Oxford and London to Brighton services operating after midnight.

The early morning intercity buses to Dublin Airport beat the ****e out of the train at the moment and the meandering 747 bus from Heuston to the airport doesn't help matters either!

the groutch

I think the crux of it is that comfort isnt the be all and end all.
if people are paying the train's premium over the bus they want it to be faster, something which isn't the case on many routes, if any (especially with Heuston's distance from the City Centre.

n97 mini

BenShermin wrote: »

Even in the UK though I can only think of London to Oxford and London to Brighton services operating after midnight.

While we're broadly in agreement, I used get the train from Reading to Slough regularly, and it was never before midnight.

But back at home with IE, having the last intercity trains so early is madness. In many cases it's not possible to do a day's work in one city and get the train home afterwards, so it's no wonder so many IE customers are on free travel passes.

thisisadamh

n97 mini wrote: »

While we're broadly in agreement, I used get the train from Reading to Slough regularly, and it was never before midnight.

But back at home with IE, having the last intercity trains so early is madness. In many cases it's not possible to do a day's work in one city and get the train home afterwards, so it's no wonder so many IE customers are on free travel passes.

After 9pm there are just not enough people to make the service worth it. Also a lot of maintenance work is done at night, when no trains are running. If trains run 24/7 no maintenance work would ever get done.

bk

Well I don't mind so much that the trains don't run later, it is understandable that the running costs for so few costumers might not make it worthwhile.

However it is crazy that BE operated no late night services, in fact they even finished up earlier then the train! It was crazy that there was no public transport at all between our two largest cities at night.

Citylink/GoBus in Galway and now Aircoach to Cork have proven that there is sufficient demand for a late night service on a bus anyway.

The ironic thing is that even BE partially run an hourly late night service to Belfast, so they most have known there was a demand for it!

AngryLips

Even BÉ struggled to maintain an after-hours service on Dublin-Belfast when they went 24-hour on the route. The service is now less than hourly after midnight, which it was when it was first introduced. Not really fair to compare Irish services with those of the UK when they're one of the most densely populated countries in Europe ...though it's true, the late services here could do with being later.

newmug

The train to Cork ALWAYS trumped the bus! Who the fluck wants to be stuck with your knees wedged against the seat in front of you and some smelly obese teenager beside you for 2 hours? The extra few bob is definately worth the comfort!

Judgement Day

newmug wrote: »

The train to Cork ALWAYS trumped the bus! Who the fluck wants to be stuck with your knees wedged against the seat in front of you and some smelly obese teenager beside you for 2 hours? The extra few bob is definately worth the comfort!

bk likes the camaraderie.

rainbowdash

A few things stick out from the OP.

50 people = train is too expensive.

2 or 3 minutes ahead of time to most stations and 8 into Heuston = Too much padding.

Clean toilet = progress

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

bk likes the camaraderie.

And the smell of the chemical rinse in the jacks

LXFlyer

rainbowdash wrote: »

A few things stick out from the OP.

50 people = train is too expensive.

2 or 3 minutes ahead of time to most stations and 8 into Heuston = Too much padding.

Clean toilet = progress

There may have only been 50 people on that train - it's at a seriously off peak time in the wrong direction (2020 ex-Cork).

How many were on the train that it operated beforehand - the 1700 from Dublin?

There are always going to have to be some journeys that carry less people so as to get the sets back in position for the next day.

foggy_lad

newmug wrote: »

The train to Cork ALWAYS trumped the bus! Who the fluck wants to be stuck with your knees wedged against the seat in front of you and some smelly obese teenager beside you for 2 hours? The extra few bob is definately worth the comfort!

Ah don't be forgetting the gangs of louts who use the trains for extra drinking time on the way to/from stag/hen nights around the country, there is nothing like getting stuck with these wasters on a busy train!

rainbowdash wrote: »

A few things stick out from the OP.

50 people = train is too expensive. more than one travelling together = Train too expensive

2 or 3 minutes ahead of time to most stations and 8 into Heuston = Too much padding.trains are usually quite late into intermediate stations and only make up time at the last minute which is seat of the pants operating!

Clean toilet = progressToilets are only properly cleaned and emptied at Connolly/Heuston so are dirty/out of order on return trips on all lines

corktina

train could be vamped up to beat the bus but will never beat the car, particulalrly when more than one person is travelling

rainbowdash

lxflyer wrote: »

There may have only been 50 people on that train - it's at a seriously off peak time in the wrong direction (2020 ex-Cork).

How many were on the train that it operated beforehand - the 1700 from Dublin?

There are always going to have to be some journeys that carry less people so as to get the sets back in position for the next day.

The point I was making is the fare should be reduced on off peak services to get the punters in.

Even take an idea from Ryanair and try and generate some secondary income once you have bums on seats.

Solair

They could definitely generate some secondary income by opening a proper café on board.

There's absolutely no reason why an Insomnia or Costa type operation couldn't be churning out the cappuccinos on those trains. The days of a soggy sandwich and an instant coffee are long gone.

There would be absolutely no problems whatever connecting up a cappuccino machine in a MK4. It has loads of electrical power.

It could even deliver 3-phase to the galley if they wanted to.

bk

rainbowdash wrote: »

The point I was making is the fare should be reduced on off peak services to get the punters in.

Even take an idea from Ryanair and try and generate some secondary income once you have bums on seats.

They tried the Ryanair previously with their €10 fares and it didn't really work.

Irish people just aren't really into booking online.

Plus the intercity market is very different to the airline market. All airlines make you pre-book, so you have no choice. But intercity a person can choose to just jump in their car or just walk up to a bus and pay a cheap fare anyway. The buses are cheap and flexible and now they are also relatively fast and comfortable. This is the reality IR have to compete with now.

That is why I say reduces journey times, drop prices and make all tickets walk up.

Putting Costa Coffee on the train, is a good idea if it makes IR more money then it costs, but on it's own it won't really gain them many customers.

It wasn't long before I was able to sit back and enjoy my few bottles of beer (something I can't do on the bus).

Why not? No reason why you can't take a few bottle of beers on the bus with you too. The GoBE buses have a fold down table, with a drink holder.

Rocky Bay

What about a "Quiet Car" ? No talking, no mobiles, just the noise of clicking keyboards.

bk

Rocky Bay wrote: »

What about a "Quiet Car" ? No talking, no mobiles, just the noise of clicking keyboards.

There already is.

Though to be honest if you want quietness and the ability to sleep then the bus is definitely much better IMO.

BenShermin

bk wrote: »

Why not? No reason why you can't take a few bottle of beers on the bus with you too. The GoBE buses have a fold down table, with a drink holder.

It's just not the same, maybe I'm spouting nonsense but I feel there's an antisocial element to it even though I wouldn't be rowdy. The person sitting beside me for three hours might not want to be stuck beside somebody drinking for three hours for whatever reason. On a train they can just move carriage if they don't want to be beside someone enjoying a drink.

Then there's the toilet, while it's great to have it on the bus, it's just not as comfortable to use as a big train toilet. I also don't want to be annoying the passengers sitting around the toilet area on the bus by going two or three times, the toilets are in the vestibules of trains so you don't feel like you're disturbing anyone.

I do however always bring a packed lunch on the bus for myself with a nice cup of coffee from somewhere.

bk

Ben that is fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is a pretty strained point.

If a person doesn't want to sit next to you drinking, no reason why they can't get up and move elsewhere on the bus. Also really no reason why you can't use the toilet a few times on the bus.

I certainly do see below drinking on the bus, but I agree much less frequently then the train. However I think that has more to do with he free travel pass and some undesirables who frequent the train.

munchkin_utd

bk wrote: »

<snip>

Why not? No reason why you can't take a few bottle of beers on the bus with you too. The GoBE buses have a fold down table, with a drink holder.

if the GoBE busses operate under Bus Eireann by laws, that'd be one reason you cannot drink on a bus operated by them.

also on citylink, condition 40 is that you canot drink alcoholic drinks on board their busses
http://www.citylink.ie/index.php/routes-a-timetables/top-destinations/76

I heard of a lad getting kicked off a bus eireann express from Galway to Limerick for drinking so it does happen occasionally. That lad was unfortunate too that the driver kicked him off the instant he was found drinking which was in the middle of nowhere (but before the motorway was opened)

bk

GoBE don't operate under BE byelaws. Why would they, separate companies.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

train could be vamped up to beat the bus but will never beat the car, particulalrly when more than one person is travelling

One area where the train will always beat the car is for safe, relaxing, stress-free travel. No idiot trying to cut in in front of you and force you off the road, no hassle getting stuck behind juggernauts etc.etc. Even on Bus Eireann you have to put up with this - especially if you sit at the front as I always try to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po_I7tFEL-8

I've travelled thousands of miles by road over the years and am always pleased/pleasantly surprised to arrive safely. I've been in a high speed truck blow-out, a bus that ended up in a ditch, been run into the back of and have had a lot of near misses with idiots who shouldn't be on the roads. Bad an all as things are on the railway I have rarely felt my life in danger - just twice in Ireland - (Waterford/Ballinacourty) weedspray train and on the "Seabreezes Express" from Cork to Youghal; and once on the Isle of Man on a double-headed passenger special being banked between Douglas and Port Soderick where the banking engine kept falling back and then catching up with the train.

Losty Dublin

Solair wrote: »

They could definitely generate some secondary income by opening a proper café on board.

There's absolutely no reason why an Insomnia or Costa type operation couldn't be churning out the cappuccinos on those trains. The days of a soggy sandwich and an instant coffee are long gone.

There would be absolutely no problems whatever connecting up a cappuccino machine in a MK4. It has loads of electrical power.

It could even deliver 3-phase to the galley if they wanted to.

Funnily enough but the company who own Railgourmet, SSP, operate a load of brands and services. This includes Starbucks and Soho Coffee under franchise in Dublin Airport. I'm sure that they could rebrand and restock Railgourmet trollies and counters if they so wished.

Solair

The one BIG BIG oversight on the Cork Route for me is the lack of power sockets in the standard class coaches on the MK4 trains.

That was a really bad omission from the design spec and they really do need to be retrofitted.

Rocky Bay

Forgot to add...sell only the same amount of tickets as seats. I noticed a long time ago that vestibles, passageways, corridors, aisles were severly overcrowded at times due to more tickets being sold then seats available. Can't say that the situation is true today but if it is , it is a disaster waiting to happen. Safety is critical on the railways and while it is sometime since I took a long railway journey, a Dublin/Cork train I was on in late 1989 still reminds me how dangerous overselling tickets can be.

Thephantomsmask

Solair - there's 2 sockets behind seat 6 in those carriages. They should be at every seat like you said though.

bk

Judgement Day wrote: »

One area where the train will always beat the car is for safe, relaxing, stress-free travel. No idiot trying to cut in in front of you and force you off the road, no hassle getting stuck behind juggernauts etc.etc. Even on Bus Eireann you have to put up with this - especially if you sit at the front as I always try to do.

.....

I've travelled thousands of miles by road over the years and am always pleased/pleasantly surprised to arrive safely.

JD that has to be some of the biggest fear mongering bs I've ever heard!!

Seriously, this is what rail fans are trying to push now.

The motorways are superb, built to a very high speak, you certainly won't be stuck behind any juggernaut on any motorway in Ireland. This also have an excellent safety record, playing a major part in the big reduction in road deaths over the last 5 years.

And it isn't as if rail bridges just collapse or anything like that now is it!!!

Rocky Bay wrote: »

Forgot to add...sell only the same amount of tickets as seats. I noticed a long time ago that vestibles, passageways, corridors, aisles were severly overcrowded at times due to more tickets being sold then seats available. Can't say that the situation is true today but if it is , it is a disaster waiting to happen. Safety is critical on the railways and while it is sometime since I took a long railway journey, a Dublin/Cork train I was on in late 1989 still reminds me how dangerous overselling tickets can be.

Doesn't really happy on the main intercity routes any more. Since the increase in capacity with clock face services and the drop in passenger numbers due to the motorways, recession and bus competition, they just aren't that full any more.