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Xbox One - General Discussion (NO DISCUSSION REGARDING PS4 - MOD WARNING Post 6903)

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    #92
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    It's still pertinent. I think the always online reports are absolute nonsense, not going to happen... But in terms of a hypothetical situation where it was being brought in, your ISP and the actual Xbox Live service potentially going down are big issues from the perspective of the gamer. It doesn't matter on what end the issue is, the issue is that a stupid design decision is stopping the gamer from playing the games they bought. I don't see why the distinction on where the blame lies is interesting or relevant, to be honest.

    I'll explain again. The biggest selling games nowadays are games that rely on their online content. COD, FIFA, Madden, Battlefield, WOW etc. They ALREADY require you to be always online. They already have one-off codes in the pre-packaging that you need to use to play online. If you don't have it, you have to buy it. This isn't some new thing. Those games are not bought for the offline campaigns.

    The argument being put forward that you should be able to play the games you paid for and service interruption on whatever end prevents this seems to ignore the fact that it is already in existence on a massive scale. The reality is that offline, disc-based gaming is coming to an end. I've already said that I don't believe that it will be the next gen consoles, or even the gen after that that gets rid of discs but in 15 years it will all be streamed from servers. Sony have bought Gakai, MS are hinting at it in a big way.


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    #93
    Arawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,158 ✭✭✭Arawn


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    I'll explain again. The biggest selling games nowadays are games that rely on their online content. COD, FIFA, Madden, Battlefield, WOW etc. They ALREADY require you to be always online. They already have one-off codes in the pre-packaging that you need to use to play online. If you don't have it, you have to buy it. This isn't some new thing. Those games are not bought for the offline campaigns.

    The argument being put forward that you should be able to play the games you paid for and service interruption on whatever end prevents this seems to ignore the fact that it is already in existence on a massive scale. The reality is that offline, disc-based gaming is coming to an end. I've already said that I don't believe that it will be the next gen consoles, or even the gen after that that gets rid of discs but in 15 years it will all be streamed from servers. Sony have bought Gakai, MS are hinting at it in a big way.
    I'll play fifa etc in a mates while drinking. If I need to be online to play an rpg something is wrong


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    #94
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Arawn wrote: »
    I'll play fifa etc in a mates while drinking. If I need to be online to play an rpg something is wrong

    Firstly, why is it wrong? As I said before, MS can reasonably point to their excellent record with server maintenance and say that people will have very few issues on their end with sever based streaming of RPGs.

    Secondly, the biggest selling RPGs of today all require you to be always online. WOW, EVE etc.


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    #95
    ShiverinEskimo
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

    Secondly, the biggest selling RPGs of today all require you to be always online. WOW, EVE etc.

    They're MMOs. Being online is a central mechanic to their gameplay.

    Using Skyrim would have been a better example. Largest selling RPG in history apparently. Being online offers nothing to Skyrim.


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    #96
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    Firstly, why is it wrong? As I said before, MS can reasonably point to their excellent record with server maintenance and say that people will have very few issues on their end with sever based streaming of RPGs.

    Well the problem doesn't have to be strictly a MS server issue...here's a little 32 page thread from very recently...where people had a seeming mix of ISP/MS issues & were unable to use Live properly for over six weeks - http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2056840743

    Secondly, what actual benefits are there to be restricted to Always-Online...when its not an MMO or such? Seems to me there's far more to argue against it, than for it.


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    #97
    Arawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,158 ✭✭✭Arawn


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    Firstly, why is it wrong? As I said before, MS can reasonably point to their excellent record with server maintenance and say that people will have very few issues on their end with sever based streaming of RPGs.

    Secondly, the biggest selling RPGs of today all require you to be always online. WOW, EVE etc.

    those are mmo's not rpgslike skyrim, FF etc and before you say it 11+14 are mmos


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    #98
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Well the problem doesn't have to be strictly a MS server issue...here's a little 32 page thread from very recently...where people had a seeming mix of ISP/MS issues & were unable to use Live properly for over six weeks - http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2056840743

    I was heavily involved in various threads on here regarding the UPC issue as I was one of those affected. I play BF3 quite a bit and found it very frustrating to be unable to play online. I directed my ire correctly at UPC. I have actually brought this up on this thread. If anything, it backs up my assertion that we are already beholden to the vagaries of ISPs.

    Secondly, what actual benefits are there to be restricted to Always-Online...when its not an MMO or such? Seems to me there's far more to argue against it, than for it.

    This answer can be used for Shiv's point too - It's not that that the games will benefit from being always online. It's that MS will reasonably point to their own track record with service interruption and server maintenance and say that the games will lose nothing from being always online.


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    #99
    Arawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,158 ✭✭✭Arawn


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    I was heavily involved in various threads on here regarding the UPC issue as I was one of those affected. I play BF3 quite a bit and found it very frustrating to be able to play online. I directed my ire correctly at UPC. I have actually brought this up on this thread. If anything, it backs up my assertion that we are already beholden to the vagaries of ISPs.



    This answer can be used for Shiv's point too - It's not that that the games will benefit from being always online. It's that MS will reasonably point to their own track record with service interruption and server maintenance and say that the games will lose nothing from being always online.

    my parents moved to kilkenny about 16 years ago, yesterday was the first time they could get internet that will support online play and even then it 1.75mbs. Not everyone in the world hell even ireland can support it. Over the years I've put thousands into my xbox, if ms do go the always on route I doubt I'll be buying a new one


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    #100
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Arawn wrote: »
    my parents moved to kilkenny about 16 years ago, yesterday was the first time they could get internet that will support online play and even then it 1.75mbs. Not everyone in the world hell even ireland can support it. Over the years I've put thousands into my xbox, if ms do go the always on route I doubt I'll be buying a new one

    I don't disagree. Something like only 60% of the Western world has broadband. MS view everyone as customers so they will not introduce this until those numbers improve. I've said as much on this thread. They're testing the waters here. Like I said, the only thing I can see them maybe implementing this time around is a one-time online authentication code to verify the game when you first put it into your Xbox.

    But the server-streaming thing or download based games thing is happening in the future. Consoles will be a thing of the past in their current guise. The biggest gaming markets at the moment are downloaded or server based games with loads of micro-transactions. It would be naive to think that MS and Sony aren't looking at that and thinking of ways to get their slice of that pie.


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    #101
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,750 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Arawn wrote: »
    my parents moved to kilkenny about 16 years ago, yesterday was the first time they could get internet that will support online play and even then it 1.75mbs. Not everyone in the world hell even ireland can support it. Over the years I've put thousands into my xbox, if ms do go the always on route I doubt I'll be buying a new one

    And this in a nutshell is why its a ridiculous concept.


    Broadband with all its bells and whistles is simply not available to everyone. both here and in the US. It just seems ridiculous.


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    #102
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    I was heavily involved in various threads on here regarding the UPC issue as I was one of those affected. I play BF3 quite a bit and found it very frustrating to be unable to play online. I directed my ire correctly at UPC. I have actually brought this up on this thread. If anything, it backs up my assertion that we are already beholden to the vagaries of ISPs.
    Well, great. When a problem is on the ISP end, you are angry at the ISP end. What is being discussed in this thread is the hypothetical situation where your single player and multiplayer are similarly blocked by downtime.

    If MS had something on their console to stop games played while offline, then they are culpable. See? They would share a part of the blame as they are the ones who designed the system in such a way as if a fault occurs on either side, your playing is prevented.

    There is no reason to expect them to do this, or for that matter to want them to do it, but you seem to want to defend it. It's baffling.
    This answer can be used for Shiv's point too - It's not that that the games will benefit from being always online. It's that MS will reasonably point to their own track record with service interruption and server maintenance and say that the games will lose nothing from being always online.
    The games lose nothing, but the gamers may lose the games.
    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    I don't disagree. Something like only 60% of the Western world has broadband. MS view everyone as customers so they will not introduce this until those numbers improve. I've said as much on this thread. They're testing the waters here. Like I said, the only thing I can see them maybe implementing this time around is a one-time online authentication code to verify the game when you first put it into your Xbox.
    Take a look at the numbers you provide yourself. Do you really think such a system would be sensible? Or do you just think they're dumb enough to think it sensible?
    But the server-streaming thing or download based games thing is happening in the future. Consoles will be a thing of the past in their current guise. The biggest gaming markets at the moment are downloaded or server based games with loads of micro-transactions. It would be naive to think that MS and Sony aren't looking at that and thinking of ways to get their slice of that pie.
    You seem to be making most likely predictions for the future, but I'm far more interested in the short term, tbh.


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    #103
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    Well, great. When a problem is on the ISP end, you are angry at the ISP end. What is being discussed in this thread is the hypothetical situation where your single player and multiplayer are similarly blocked by downtime.

    If MS had something on their console to stop games played while offline, then they are culpable. See? They would share a part of the blame as they are the ones who designed the system in such a way as if a fault occurs on either side, your playing is prevented.

    There is no reason to expect them to do this, or for that matter to want them to do it, but you seem to want to defend it. It's baffling.

    You are still missing my point. The biggest selling games out today are made for their online content. The situation that you don't want to happen already exists for a huge number of people. To extend that out to offline games isn't a huge stretch, from an MS and Sony POV. I am not defending anything either, which makes me think that you are willfully misunderstanding what I am posting, if you believe that that is my motivation for posting. I would be happy for games to remain disc based for as long as it is the best method for doing so. Everybody here is arguing from the side of the gamer that may lose out. Which is absolutely valid. I'm just putting forward an alternate viewpoint as to why Sony and MS will think that it is more viable than many here seem to acknowledge.

    The games lose nothing, but the gamers may lose the games.

    Some gamers may lose games for a while. I was already one of these. As I have said mutliple times - it is already happening.
    Take a look at the numbers you provide yourself. Do you really think such a system would be sensible? Or do you just think they're dumb enough to think it sensible?

    I have already said that it is not viable right now and that MS and Sony will not implement it this gen.

    You seem to be making most likely predictions for the future, but I'm far more interested in the short term, tbh.

    Actually, in that post I make predictions for the short-term and the long term.


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    #104
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    You are still missing my point. The biggest selling games out today are made for their online content. The situation that you don't want to happen already exists for a huge number of people. To extend that out to offline games isn't a huge stretch, from an MS and Sony POV.
    If you are talking about the future, 15 years time or so, then the conversation is pointless, as I don't care about 15 years time right now. It isn't viable now. Even the disc authenticating method which you posit as something of a compromise the next console will have as a stop-gap till they get to the always online probable future.
    Some gamers may lose games for a while. I was already one of these. As I have said mutliple times - it is already happening.
    That's part and parcel of it being online, and part and parcel of why it is unviable now, even the disc authenticating method. What that would do is relegate a console to being a door stop for many. Not just temporarily unusable.
    I have already said that it is not viable right now and that MS and Sony will not implement it this gen.
    I should have bolded the specific part I was responding to, my bad.
    Like I said, the only thing I can see them maybe implementing this time around is a one-time online authentication code to verify the game when you first put it into your Xbox.
    Even going to this point as soon as for the next gen would be stupid. And I don't see it happening.


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    #105
    ShiverinEskimo
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    This could be an awful lot of wasted steam lads. Most of this is based off of out-dated leaks and one gobshíte's twitter account.

    I'd be waiting for official confirmation before coming to too many conclusions.


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    #106
    Fuzzy_Dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 5,493 ✭✭✭Fuzzy_Dunlop


    I can't believe that anyone would actuall support this always online crap. In what way does it benefit the customer whatsoever?


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    #107
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »
    I can't believe that anyone would actuall support this always online crap. In what way does it benefit the customer whatsoever?

    Is anyone here actually supporting it?


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    #108
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    Is anyone here actually supporting it?
    The disc authentication for the next gen you seem to be tacitly accepting, at least.


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    #109
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    I was heavily involved in various threads on here regarding the UPC issue as I was one of those affected. I play BF3 quite a bit and found it very frustrating to be unable to play online. I directed my ire correctly at UPC. I have actually brought this up on this thread. If anything, it backs up my assertion that we are already beholden to the vagaries of ISPs.

    I wasn't affected by it one little bit, not in the slightest...you know why? I don't play online. I've no interest in the world in online gaming. I don't care who's online that I know, what they are playing, what they like etc. I like story driven, offline games. If playing such games requires a constant connection, its Playstation all the way for my next console unless they do something silly like implement DRM like this.

    I've no doubt MS can keep their servers running 24/7 365 days a year...but don't try & sell this drm to me if my gaming time lies in the lap of my ISP.


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    #110
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    The disc authentication for the next gen you seem to be tacitly accepting, at least.

    Er, where have I said that I support it, exactly?

    The authentication system is already here for online play. It is already being used to get a slice of the second hand games market. You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that it won't be introduced for games that are primarily used offline.

    The technology is already in place. Buy game, put into Xbox, insert 25 character authentication code, small download that provides license to profile and locally to your Xbox too. You can now play offline too. Game can only be used by your console unless you DL your profile to another console or do a DRM transfer. This already exists so it's not a stretch to suggest that it will be implemented in the not too distant future and it won't be an exclusively MS led initiative.

    I'll point out again for the hard of reading - That post does not mean I support this. I am merely pointing out that everything that people are afraid of has already been slowly but surely put into place.

    Maybe if the offline gamers had made a stink when they started introducing these measures in solidarity for their online brethren, MS and devs might have stood up and taken note. I suppose it is alright until it affects your gaming experience directly.


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    #111
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    Er, where have I said that I support it, exactly?
    In this very post you clearly see it as something that is going to happen and that you accept it. Not that you think it is good, but you are going to accept it. I neither think it will happen, or will I accept it if it comes to pass. Disc authentication/needing to go online would be a deal breaker to me. See? That's not accepting it.


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    #112
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    I suppose it is alright until it affects your gaming experience directly.

    Well its not so clear cut. I've no problem doing a one off activation, or even if Online Passes are extended to encompass offline games & if you buy a used game you need to buy a new licence to use it...I'd not have too big an issue with that as long as the passes wern't huge money.

    What I do have an issue with though, is always-on DRM.


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    #113
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    In this very post you clearly see it as something that is going to happen and that you accept it. Not that you think it is good, but you are going to accept it. I neither think it will happen, or will I accept it if it comes to pass. Disc authentication/needing to go online would be a deal breaker to me. See? That's not accepting it.

    Okay. But the statement wasn't about one of acceptance. It was about supporting such a system being put into place. Which I don't, in theory. In practice, I buy games that has this in place for online play.

    If you have bought any game that you have played offline that came with an authentication code for online, you accepted it. If you bought any game from EA, Activision, Ubisoft and all of the other guys that implement this system, you accepted it.

    It's fair enough to make that a deal breaker, that's your prerogative. But it has been around for years, only for the online aspect. If you thought that it wouldn't be brought in for offline games, with the technology already there, you had your head in the sand.


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    #114
    ShiverinEskimo
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    Riddle me this. Was there a time you couldn't earn achievements for Xbox360 games if the console was offline?

    Or did I dream this up?


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    #115
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Well its not so clear cut. I've no problem doing a one off activation, or even if Online Passes are extended to encompass offline games & if you buy a used game you need to buy a new licence to use it...I'd not have too big an issue with that as long as the passes wern't huge money.

    What I do have an issue with though, is always-on DRM.

    As I said, I can't see this being an issue for years yet. But Sony buying Gakai and MS making little whisperings here and there make it clear that they are definitely looking into it and will try to implement it.


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    #116
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    Riddle me this. Was there a time you couldn't earn achievements for Xbox360 games if the console was offline?

    Or did I dream this up?

    You could earn the achievements but converting to an online profile would often result in your achievements being set to 0, as a precaution against achievement hacking. Haven't heard of that happening in a while though.


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    #117
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    It's fair enough to make that a deal breaker, that's your prerogative. But it has been around for years, only for the online aspect. If you thought that it wouldn't be brought in for offline games, with the technology already there, you had your head in the sand.
    I don't think I'd be alone in that category. I don't think that far ahead, to be honest, and I think we are starting from fundamentally different views of the likelihood of satisfactory internet all the time. With such drastically different starting points, we were obviously going to end up concluding our thinking at very different destinations.


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    #118
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,741 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    This could be an awful lot of wasted steam lads. Most of this is based off of out-dated leaks and one gobshíte's twitter account.

    I'd be waiting for official confirmation before coming to too many conclusions.

    Most gaming publications are saying sources who should know if its true or not are confirming its happening


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    #119
    Meesared
    Registered Users Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭Meesared


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Most gaming publications are saying sources who should know if its true or not are confirming its happening
    Seriously I'll eat my own arse if this is true


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    #120
    pleasant Co.
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 7,384 Mod ✭✭✭✭pleasant Co.


    Meesared wrote: »
    Seriously I'll eat my own arse if this is true

    How would you like that served? Medium or rear :D


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    #121
    iMuse
    Registered Users Posts: 3,975 ✭✭✭iMuse


    Xbox live down at the moment, Can't wait till the next box when I can't play single player games due to their crap servers.


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