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Sinn Fein TD Dessie Ellis linked to 50 IRA murders

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    #182
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Then surely they would have been in jail by now?

    Do you know more than the British criminal justice system?
    The dogs in the street know that Adams was in the IRA. Only a complete idiot or a sycophantic apologist would attempt to deny it?


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    #183
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    dvpower wrote: »
    The dogs in the street know that Adams was in the IRA. Only a complete idiot or a sycophantic apologist would attempt to deny it?

    They why wasn't he jailed for it? Seeing as the dog in the street knew it?


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    #184
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dvpower wrote: »
    Justice for their crimes.
    If justice isn't on the cards, at least they should crawl back under their stones.

    Really? I was fairly sure you said you just wanted "the truth".


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    #185
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    dvpower wrote: »
    The dogs in the street know that Adams was in the IRA. Only a complete idiot or a sycophantic apologist would attempt to deny it?

    There is a difference though. He was obviously clever in evading involvement in crimes that led to him being found guilty of membership/other crimes.

    As I've said I'm no fan of Sinn Fein at all, but Adams is possibly one of the few of them currently active with no criminal record from that time.

    I used work with one of their convicted bombers from Derry. His mother regularly castigated McGuinness for his involvement to his face.


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    #186
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Pottler wrote: »
    I agree fully with your points in bold, the rest is just a matter of time passing.

    Some reading for you and the other lad...

    http://cedarlounge.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/good-old-ira-sf-publ-dept-1985.pdf


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    #187
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    If the man on the street knows they were in the IRA then why weren't they convicted?
    That's pretty obvious. In order to stop these criminals from continuing their campaign of murder and mayhem, we've decided to pay the price of not perusing them.

    That doesn't wipe away their crimes. Adams is still a terrorist.


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    #188
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    dvpower wrote: »
    That's pretty obvious. In order to stop these criminals from continuing their campaign of murder and mayhem, we've decided to pay the price of not perusing them.

    That doesn't wipe away their crimes. Adams is still a terrorist.
    But they had decades to get him before the peace process?

    They even colluded in an assassination attempt on him


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    #189
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Nodin wrote: »
    Really? I was fairly sure you said you just wanted "the truth".
    That's right. Terrorists face up to the truth or crawl back under their stones.


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    #190
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    dvpower wrote: »
    That's pretty obvious. In order to stop these criminals from continuing their campaign of murder and mayhem, we've decided to pay the price of not perusing them.

    That doesn't wipe away their crimes. Adams is still a terrorist.

    I agree with you that Adams has supported a reign of terrorism in the past, not that he is a convicted terrorist though. I know I'm being very pedantic. Having worked with that guy who was a bomber I've no doubt Adams was involved, but legally he is clean.

    I grew up in Portlaoise across from the prison in the 70's and 80's. Probably as close as you could come to living in NI at the time in the south. I remember the bomb scares, the extradition protests, Peter Robinson being jailed etc. I remember the protests around Ellis being extradited, and numerous other incidents.

    Adams never featured, iirc McGuinness did a few times though.


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    #191
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    GRMA wrote: »
    But they had decades to get him before the peace process?

    They even colluded in an assassination attempt on him
    lol. I don't want anyone 'got'.


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    #192
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    dvpower wrote: »
    That's right. Terrorists face up to the truth or crawl back under their stones.

    Including RUC, MI5 and MI6 officers?


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    #193
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dvpower wrote: »
    That's right. Terrorists face up to the truth or crawl back under their stones.


    No, you stated
    Justice for their crimes.
    If justice isn't on the cards, at least they should crawl back under their stones

    despite elsewhere saying
    Nobody is talking about charging anybody with anything.
    Just looking for the truth of the matter. Is that not reasonable and understandable?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82402644&postcount=42


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    #194
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    I agree with you that Adams has supported a reign of terrorism in the past, not that he is a convicted terrorist though. I know I'm being very pedantic. Having worked with that guy who was a bomber I've no doubt Adams was involved, but legally he is clean.

    I grew up in Portlaoise across from the prison in the 70's and 80's. Probably as close as you could come to living in NI at the time in the south. I remember the bomb scares, the extradition protests, Peter Robinson being jailed etc. I remember the protests around Ellis being extradited, and numerous other incidents.

    Adams never featured, iirc McGuinness did a few times though.
    I get the distinction you're making between someone like Adams, who wasn't convicted, and Ellis, who is a convicted terrorist.

    I'm pretty confident that Adams is a terrorist - its common knowledge and only messers would challenge it.


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    #195
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, you stated



    despite elsewhere saying


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82402644&postcount=42
    That's right. The truth or back under the stone.

    One or the other.


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    #196
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Including RUC, MI5 and MI6 officers?
    Yeah, that whataboutery too.


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    #197
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    dvpower wrote: »
    I get the distinction you're making between someone like Adams, who wasn't convicted, and Ellis, who is a convicted terrorist.

    I'm pretty confident that Adams is a terrorist - its common knowledge and only messers would challenge it.

    I am too, but by the laws of the Uk and Ireland he is not a criminal, Ellis et al are.

    I can't understand how a bankrupt can't be a T.D. but a convicted criminal can.

    Ergo I've a problem with all those from Sinn Fein who have such a conviction being in office, but not with Adams. Much and all as I despise the man and the past I believe he has had, he has never been convicted of any criminal offence.


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    #198
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    How many current, serving members of Fine Gael were in a terrorist organisation whose living victims are maimed or survived by still-grieving families and friends? None.

    Sinn Féin has several. In addition to Dessie Ellis, they have

    * Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin MLA for North Belfast)
    * Paul Butler (former Sinn Féin MLA for Lagan Valley)
    * Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin MLA for West Tyrone)
    * Martina Anderson (former Sinn Féin MLA for Foyle)
    * Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure)
    * Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin Deputy First Minster)
    * Gerry Adams (Sinn Féin leader)
    * Martin Ferris (Sinn Féin TD for Kerry North-West Limerick)
    Stheno wrote: »
    While I loathe Sinn Fein and make no apologies for it, I equally loathe sloppy posting. Neither Gerry Adams or Pat Doherty have ever been convicted of any criminal offences or of belonging to any terrorist organisation. You might want to amend your post above?

    The evidence that Gerry Adams was in the IRA is overwhelming.

    * We have photographs from 1971 of Adams in uniform at an IRA funeral (complete with custom black beret).
    * We have the testimony of investigative journalists and writers such as Ed Moloney, Jim Cusack, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban, Richard English and Kevin Myers (who lived in Northern Ireland in the 1970s).
    * We have the testimony of British intelligence authorities.
    * We have the testimony of Irish intelligence authorities.
    * We have the testimony of several former IRA members (Anthony McIntyre, Brendan Hughes, Marion Price)
    * We have the testimony of American politicians like Mario Biaggi, who met Adams in the Europa Hotel in Belfast in 1979 and was told, by Adams, that an IRA truce was out of the question.

    Really, the only evidence we have that Gerry Adams was not is his own testimony. Frankly, I think he is lying when he says he was never in the IRA.

    As for Doherty, he's been named in the House of Commons as a member of the IRA Army Council. There's no smoke without fire.


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    #199
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    I am too, but by the laws of the Uk and Ireland he is not a criminal, Ellis et al are.
    Convictions are one measure.

    Actually committing crimes is another. It is generally accepted that Adams was an IRA leader and I accept that too. Even the most committed 'republican' will agree.


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    #200
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    The evidence that Gerry Adams was in the IRA is overwhelming.

    * We have photographs from 1971 of Adams in uniform at an IRA funeral (complete with custom black beret).
    * We have the testimony of investigative journalists and writers such as Ed Moloney, Jim Cusack, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban, Richard English and Kevin Myers (who lived in Northern Ireland in the 1970s).
    * We have the testimony of British intelligence authorities.
    * We have the testimony of Irish intelligence authorities.
    * We have the testimony of several former IRA members (Anthony McIntyre, Brendan Hughes, Marion Price)
    * We have the testimony of American politicians like Mario Biaggi, who met Adams in the Europa Hotel in Belfast in 1979 and was told, by Adams, that an IRA truce was out of the question.

    Really, the only evidence we have that Gerry Adams was not is his own testimony. Frankly, I think he is lying when he says he was never in the IRA.

    As for Doherty, he's been named in the House of Commons as a member of the IRA Army Council. There's no smoke without fire.

    Agree with you 100%, however, they are the only two in the original list posted never to have been convicted of a criminal offence.

    I have no doubt GA was very senior in the IRA etc, but claiming he is a convicted terrorist when he is not is just wrong, and actually leaves boards open to defamation claims.

    I have the personal testimony of a convicted IRA bomber that Adams was involved, but in a court of law that's called hearsay.


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    #201
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    dvpower wrote: »
    Convictions are one measure.

    Actually committing crimes is another. It is generally accepted that Adams was an IRA leader and I accept that too. Even the most committed 'republican' will agree.

    But should we make being a convicted criminal something that precludes one from being a TD the subsequent purge would exclude Adams but get rid of Ellis


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    #202
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    But should we make being a convicted criminal something that precludes one from being a TD the subsequent purge would exclude Adams but get rid of Ellis
    Personally I think nobody should be precluded from being a TD. The people are sovereign, so if they want a convicted criminal to represent them then they should have it. I'd go even further - if a convicted criminal who was jailed was elected to the Oireachtas, the Criminal Justice system should facilitate them in carrying out their elected duties.
    But that's just me -I'm a bit of a liberal.

    I do like to know exactly who my elected representatives have had a hand in murdering 'tho.


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    #203
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    dvpower wrote: »
    I do like to know exactly who my elected representatives have had a hand in murdering 'tho.

    So he was convicted of these murders by the British justice system then?


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    #204
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Seaneh wrote: »
    So he was convicted of these murders by the British justice system then?
    Who are you referring to, Ellis or Adams?

    Ellis is a convicted terrorist. Adams is a not convicted terrorist.


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    #205
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    dvpower wrote: »
    Personally I think nobody should be precluded from being a TD. The people are sovereign, so if they want a convicted criminal to represent them then they should have it. I'd go even further - if a convicted criminal who was jailed was elected to the Oireachtas, the Criminal Justice system should facilitate them in carrying out their elected duties.
    But that's just me -I'm a bit of a liberal.

    I do like to know exactly who my elected representatives have had a hand in murdering 'tho.

    I'm not as liberal as you.

    I'd like to think our political representatives obey the laws of the land, so I'd get rid of those who don't pay the household charge and advocate not doing so, those convicted of any offence including traffic offences, those found to evade train fares, taking bribes etc.

    You'd probably get rid of half the Dail in that case, but it can't be anything but a good thing.

    Live a good life, and represent your people, don't expect us to respect you if you are unlawful if my opinion.

    And I include Adams in that list of unlawful, along with an awful lot of FG/FF/Lab tbh/Independants to be honest.


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    #206
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    dvpower wrote: »
    Who are you referring to, Ellis or Adams?

    Ellis is a convicted terrorist. Adams is a not convicted terrorist.

    Ellis was convicted in an ROI court.

    I remember the protests when he was extradited.


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    #207
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Stheno wrote: »
    Ellis was convicted in an ROI court.

    I remember the protests when he was extradited.
    That's right.
    Ellis is a convicted terrorist, convicted in our courts.


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    #208
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    dvpower wrote: »
    That's right.
    Ellis is a convicted terrorist, convicted in our courts.

    And imo he should not be in our Dail.


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    #209
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    dvpower wrote: »
    Who are you referring to, Ellis or Adams?

    Ellis is a convicted terrorist. Adams is a not convicted terrorist.

    Both :)

    Ellis was never convicted for those murders.


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    #210
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    dvpower wrote: »
    What has this got to do with Dessie Ellis? :confused:

    It's to do with the hypocrites in our government who pick and choose which mass murderers they are mates with.


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    #211
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Why don't they stay up in the North in the Stormont talking shop. They've no business in our parliament. The fcuking windup of this country altogether would be them getting into government down here. I betcha Arthur Griffth would spin in his grave if he could see what his party has become.


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