Sinn Fein TD Dessie Ellis linked to 50 IRA murders

Rascasse

GRMA wrote: »

f the British had the forensic evidence how come he wasnt charged, and how come he was acquitted of what he was charged of?

Your ilk are glossing over this.

Indo is a rag, and this is simply throwing muck at the wall

It's an internal telex from the embassy to the FCO. It's not written to impress anyone or with any expectation that it would be made public, so its actually pretty believable. Why wasn't he charged? Could be many reasons, quite often it's down to wanting to protect systems and sources. Perhaps a decision was made that after the first acquittal there was little point pursuing it further. He'd been out of circulation for over 10 years so was irrelevant and the peace negotiations were well underway.

GRMA

awec wrote: »

Is there evidence they covered up the murder of Finucane? If there is why hasn't anyone been charged? They've had plenty of time.

Why are there calls for an enquiry there?

Why do you think the Finucane family are entitled to an enquiry to get the truth and the families of these 50 victims aren't? What makes them more deserving? Why do you support burying the truth in this instance? Why don't you feel we solid spend millions on this one to get to the bottom of it, with the leaders of Sinn Fein and all other such groupings being hauled in for questioning and cross examination?

Yes, its apparent that collusion has been covered up...

I'm quite clear on hat I think, I think the 2 year minimum term for stuff done during the troubles should be reduced to zero and there should be a peace and reconciliation forum like in SA and everyone should take part

You think the British covered up and hid evidence to protect Dessie Ellis? I'll have some of what you are having.

awec

GRMA wrote: »

Yes, its apparent that collusion has been covered up...

I'm quite clear on hat I think, I think the 2 year minimum term for stuff done during the troubles should be reduced to zero and there should be a peace and reconciliation forum like in SA and everyone should take part

You think the British covered up and hid evidence to protect Dessie Ellis? I'll have some of what you are having.

So you don't want to spend millions to get the truth in this case?

But I thought you were all for the truth? How can you have a truth commission if a report which links someone to 50 murders is disregarded because it doesn't suit the agenda?

Chuck Stone

awec wrote: »

So you don't want to spend millions to get the truth in this case?

He's a convicted IRA bomb maker. Unlike the brave soldiers of Bloody Sunday he's been convicted and served time.

Bloody Sunday is what you keep hinting at isn't it? Remember the victims of Bloody Sunday did not get justice - they got an enquiry that allowed their loved ones to have their status of legitimately shot dead terrorists 'elevated' to murdered innocents.

If you have a problem with the costs of the tribunal blame the liars in the BA and all those that covered up for them.

Dyr

awec wrote: »

So you don't want to spend millions to get the truth in this case?

But I thought you were all for the truth? How can you have a truth commission if a report which links someone to 50 murders is disregarded because it doesn't suit the agenda?

Deary me, You've had this explained to you previously. Your pals up north prosecuted the IRA's actions to the fullest extent of the law (and beyond it) that's why so many of them were locked up at the time. Oddly enough they weren't so rigorous in applying those laws to themselves as time (and poor old John Stalker) found out, hence the continuing necessity for inquiries. Maybe if we keep pointing that out to you it might eventually sink in.

Of course you can feel free to ask the Provisional IRA to have an inquiry into these allegations found in a british govt document, just so you can compare apples to apples.

Rothmans

awec wrote: »

So you don't want to spend millions to get the truth in this case?

But I thought you were all for the truth? How can you have a truth commission if a report which links someone to 50 murders is disregarded because it doesn't suit the agenda?

Who's 'you all' awec?

If you want millions to be spent on an inquiry about allegations made by undoubtedly biased military 'intelligence' 30 years ago, that's all well and good (albeit ridiculous).
However, you should really be petitioning the British Government for that, and not a bunch of posters on an Irish discussion board. That's beyond ridiculous.

pablomakaveli

Its nice to see the republicans trying to make light of another terrorist again. Its always the same anytime the spotlight is shone on them yet when its "the other side" they'll be the first in baying for blood so to speak.

Its this attitude which shows why republicans are a blight on irish politics and why they've a long way to go before they can be trusted.

And for some impartiality the same can apply to unionists.

As for the well FF did this, FG did that bollocks that changes nothing. FF and FG are both a shower of gob****es but at least they dont have active members who were in the provos.

Bejubby

Why does anybody bother even entertaining this, there scumbags, what else would you expect.

Some day the Irish people will stand up as a nation and say we've had enough.

pjproby

if true, the question is, what did he achieve by these murders.
If true what human being could involve himself in so many murders and what was the aim.
A United Ireland? Not worth a drop of blood imho.

awec

Chuck Stone wrote: »

He's a convicted IRA bomb maker. Unlike the brave soldiers of Bloody Sunday he's been convicted and served time.

Bloody Sunday is what you keep hinting at isn't it? Remember the victims of Bloody Sunday did not get justice - they got an enquiry that allowed their loved ones to have their status of legitimately shot dead terrorists 'elevated' to murdered innocents.

If you have a problem with the costs of the tribunal blame the liars in the BA and all those that covered up for them.

Convicted of bomb making but has he been tried for these murders?

Why do you feel there should be no further investigation into this report? Why are these victims families not deserving of the truth.

Can you answer me that please?

awec

Bambi wrote: »

Deary me, You've had this explained to you previously. Your pals up north prosecuted the IRA's actions to the fullest extent of the law (and beyond it) that's why so many of them were locked up at the time. Oddly enough they weren't so rigorous in applying those laws to themselves as time (and poor old John Stalker) found out, hence the continuing necessity for inquiries. Maybe if we keep pointing that out to you it might eventually sink in.

Of course you can feel free to ask the Provisional IRA to have an inquiry into these allegations found in a british govt document, just so you can compare apples to apples.

Why have a Provo inquiry? Surely the victims in this case are entitled to the same as other victims in the troubles?

Or is there a hierarchy? Are republican victims more important?

awec

Rothmans wrote: »

Who's 'you all' awec?

If you want millions to be spent on an inquiry about allegations made by undoubtedly biased military 'intelligence' 30 years ago, that's all well and good (albeit ridiculous).
However, you should really be petitioning the British Government for that, and not a bunch of posters on an Irish discussion board. That's beyond ridiculous.

I'm not petitioning anyone on it, just highlighting the hypocrisy of those who apparently want the truth.

Funny, they want the truth but this has been dismissed as false and nobody appears to want it investigate.

These people don't want the truth at all.


For what its worth, I don't believe there is anything to gain from constantly dragging up the past. But funnily enough elements of republicanism keep doing it, but their idea of truth and justice is disgustingly selective.

Offy

This thread is funny. These issues will never go away. The Brits murder a Catholic (eg Pat Finucane) and the IRA ranks swell but the Brits deny everything, it wasnt us it was the paramilitaries so the IRA kill someone and around it goes again and again. Why do people get so worked up about it? Its life - or death! It doesnt matter who started it, all that matters is that one side stop it and SF seem to have stopped so why are they still the target?
Are the PSNI treating the protestant protesters like they treated the Catholic protesters (eg civil rights march in 1972 or my own personal experience in 2011)? No they are not so they havent stopped. Then David Black gets murdered. No link to SF so far. So SF seem to be the easy target but this time they are not falling for the usual bait that worked for the Brits for so many generations. So why dont the Catholics stop? Try living in NI and you will know. We are still second class citizens to the PSNI and other such organisations.
Whether or not people in the Republic believe this or not an Irish man living in NI will politely by told to F off before the PSNI will do anything to protect their basic civil rights or at least thats my experience after one year of living here. So I say fair play SF for standing up for us Irish.

Chuck Stone

awec wrote: »

Convicted of bomb making but has he been tried for these murders?

There is no evidence for the '50 murders' claim. I'm not sure they can convict people who make bombs for the deaths they cause. What if he said 'I thought they were being used against property'? Would that exonerate him from being convicted of specific killings?

Why do you feel there should be no further investigation into this report?

He was acquitted in London in 1991. I'd have no problem with him being convicted for specific actions (he'd probably be released under the terms of the GFA regardless).

Why are these victims families not deserving of the truth.

Everyone is deserving of the truth when it comes to the deaths of their loved ones.

awec

Offy wrote: »

This thread is funny. These issues will never go away. The Brits murder a Catholic (eg Pat Finucane) and the IRA ranks swell but the Brits deny everything, it wasnt us it was the paramilitaries so the IRA kill someone and around it goes again and again. Why do people get so worked up about it? Its life - or death! It doesnt matter who started it, all that matters is that one side stop it and SF seem to have stopped so why are they still the target?
Are the PSNI treating the protestant protesters like they treated the Catholic protesters (eg civil rights march in 1972 or my own personal experience in 2011)? No they are not so they havent stopped. Then David Black gets murdered. No link to SF so far. So SF seem to be the easy target but this time they are not falling for the usual bait that worked for the Brits for so many generations. So why dont the Catholics stop? Try living in NI and you will know. We are still second class citizens to the PSNI and other such organisations.
Whether or not people in the Republic believe this or not an Irish man living in NI will politely by told to F off before the PSNI will do anything to protect their basic civil rights or at least thats my experience after one year of living here. So I say fair play SF for standing up for us Irish.

Wtf? :pac:

Dyr

awec wrote: »

Why have a Provo inquiry? Surely the victims in this case are entitled to the same as other victims in the troubles?

Or is there a hierarchy? Are republican victims more important?

"republican" victims? Who'd they be then?

Sunnyisland

He is linked to in or around 50 murders. However, he is convicted of none.

He was extradited to the UK, and therefore was in the hands of the UK authorities, but they never held him for any other of the "potentially 50 murders they linked him to,If Ellis was "linked" to 50 murders.. I assume there was some "evidence".. linking him

If that is/was the case.. why when Ellis was in British custody.. was he not charged with even 1 of those murders ?

And let's face it, Ellis will never be prosecuted at this stage and anyone who supported the GFA should accept that. It was part of the deal that we voted for.

Anyway point is that I'd like to see a situation where the likes of Dessie Ellis can be in a position to say this is what I did, this is why I did it and this is how I look back on it now.But that wont happen as the British & Irish governments have way to much to hide,So the merry sadgoround continues.

awec

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There is no evidence for the '50 murders' claim. I'm not sure they can convict people who make bombs for the deaths they cause. What if he said 'I thought they were being used against property'? Would that exonerate him from being convicted of specific killings?



He was acquitted in London in 1991. I'd have no problem with him being convicted for specific actions (he'd probably be released under the terms of the GFA regardless).



Everyone is deserving of the truth when it comes to the deaths of their loved ones.

There's no evidence of anything until a thorough investigation is launched to gather evidence and a case. Evidence doesn't just uncover itself.

I personally don't want an enquiry, these enquiries don't deliver the truth. They give us what people want to hear. They give us what is politically acceptable. There's been so much BS spun up there its hard to separate fact from fiction these days. There are too many people in the north with too much to lose, as such we'll never get the truth. There are people in governments with too much to lose. I say draw a line.

But my point is, elements of republicanism are very selective about which bits of the past they want investigated. Its hypocrisy of the highest order. A hierarchy of victims is being created. Why are those who usually want these things investigated dismissing this out of hand and trying to sweep it under the rug. Would they be as quick to dismiss if this linked a squaddie to 50 murders? Of course not, they'd be all over it like a rash.

Biggins

Confab wrote: »

I don't support Sinn Fein or the IRA at all, but Fine Gael started out as a terrorist organisation too. And Enda Kenny's responses to any of Sinn Fein's legitimate questions with 'ah sure you're just terrorists' is beyond pathetic. They are a legitmate political party with a growing presence in Ireland. It just shows how bad Kenny really is as a leader and also how poor his diplomatic skills really are.

The above says it all for me 100%.
No doubt the above will be conveniently forgotten about and muck throwing will begin again in the run up to the next elections.
Double-standards as usual in Irish politics from the usual mafia.

Sully

Biggins wrote: »

The above says it all for me 100%.
No doubt the above will be conveniently forgotten about and muck throwing will begin again in the run up to the next elections.
Double-standards as usual in Irish politics from the usual mafia.

But its comparing apple and oranges. Fine Gael has a past, but its long time in the past.

Sinn Fein has a past, present and a future. The IRA haven't gone away and the troubles still rumble on.

The only way we can move on from the past is if all those involved put their hands up, apologise and move on. But having a party that has members/TDs who are staunch supporters of the IRA movement to this day and have fresh links with the movement is wrong. This is where the issue lies, as every party has a bloody history given our history. Sinn Fein are in denial to this very day and wont admit to their connections or fully condemn it.

awec

To be fair, the troubles are long over and whilst there are undoubtedly a few former provos involved in the scattered incidents at the moment the current incarnation of the IRA has not a lot to do with Provisional Sinn Fein.

They are in government and they have a mandate.

Border-Rat

Free state hypocrisy rage is strong in this thread.

Border-Rat

awec wrote: »

To be fair, the troubles are long over and whilst there are undoubtedly a few former provos involved in the scattered incidents at the moment the current incarnation of the IRA has not a lot to do with Provisional Sinn Fein.

They are in government and they have a mandate.

Yes but what about Gerry McCabe?

Bobeagleburger

Must be a slow news day.

Anything to take the heat off the shít job the current government are doing.

awec

Border-Rat wrote: »

Yes but what about Gerry McCabe?

What's that to do with that post you quoted?

Border-Rat

awec wrote: »

What's that to do with that post you quoted?

Well maybe one of the murders he's linked to is Gerry McCabe.

Biggins

Sully wrote: »

But its comparing apple and oranges. Fine Gael has a past, but its long time in the past.

Sinn Fein has a past, present and a future. The IRA haven't gone away and the troubles still rumble on.

The only way we can move on from the past is if all those involved put their hands up, apologise and move on. But having a party that has members/TDs who are staunch supporters of the IRA movement to this day and have fresh links with the movement is wrong. This is where the issue lies, as every party has a bloody history given our history. Sinn Fein are in denial to this very day and wont admit to their connections or fully condemn it.

JUST as point of order: Do we have present elected TD's in the three main parties what would still support supposedly 'terrorist organisations' as they were once seen/called by a previous British empire?

ALL parties have a past, present and future - certainly two of the three main ones have been previously involved in activity that is questionable to say the least by others which might also wish to cast equal allegations.
Has such parties ever apologised previously either for their actions - or is it double-standards for just the ones we favour?

Sinn Fein does indeed have a past like other parties who were born thru violence (but no equal apologies), present (for which they have taken ALSO the path of peace) and a future which they hope will now continue in peace.

I might not and don't support the party but like other parties previously and concurrently, thee party that has not sinned, cast the first stone please!

Chuck Stone

awec wrote: »

I personally don't want an enquiry, these enquiries don't deliver the truth. They give us what people want to hear. They give us what is politically acceptable.

Is that your synopsis of the Saville enquiry?

There are too many people in the north with too much to lose, as such we'll never get the truth.

I agree.

I say draw a line.

But how will people who lost loved ones move on if they don't have the truth?

But my point is, elements of republicanism are very selective about which bits of the past they want investigated. Its hypocrisy of the highest order.

If I could wave a magic wand and have the absolute truth for the public I'd do it and I wouldn't care who's career ended over it SF/DUP/B.Gov/Ir.Gov.

A hierarchy of victims is being created.

Well there is a hierarchy of victims whether people accept it or not. The families of innocent civilians deserve the to have their questions answered first.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sully wrote: »

How about Sinn Fein just man up, be honest, and go out and tell the Irish people "We did it because we wanted to fight for our country. Innocent people died along the way, which we regret. Yes, X Y and Z were part of murders and bombings. We regret this and like other parties in this house, we are moving on from our horrible past and we condemn such atrocities and ask that the IRA and related splinter groups immediately cease."

"Sunday 21 July marks the 30th anniversary of an IRA operation in Belfast in 1972 which resulted in nine people being killed and many more injured. While it was not our intention to injure or kill non-combatants, the reality is that on this and on a number of other occasions, that was the consequence of our actions.

It is, therefore, appropriate on the anniversary of this tragic event, that we address all of the deaths and injuries of non-combatants caused by us. We offer our sincere apologies and condolences to their families. There have been fatalities amongst combatants on all sides. We also acknowledge the grief and pain of their relatives.

The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing minds and hearts to the plight of those who have been hurt. That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non-combatants. It will not be achieved by creating a hierarchy of victims in which some are deemed more or less worthy than others.

The process of conflict resolution requires the equal acknowledgement of the grief and loss of others. On this anniversary, we are endeavouring to fulfil this responsibility to those we have hurt.

The IRA is committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland. We remain totally committed to the peace process and to dealing with the challenges and difficulties which this presents. This includes the acceptance of past mistakes and of the hurt and pain we have caused to others."

P O'Neill, Irish Republican Publicity Bureau, Dublin

Sully wrote: »

instead of "We did nothing wrong, we are completely innocent, its a conspiracy by the Brits and this government to deflect attention from their own failings".

Maybe than people will move on.necessarily

Read above.

LINK

Biggins

Craig Orange Succotash wrote: »

Read above.

LINK

...The IRA is committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland. We remain totally committed to the peace process and to dealing with the challenges and difficulties which this presents. This includes the acceptance of past mistakes and of the hurt and pain we have caused to others."

Shush...

FG and Labour supporters alone don't want to hear or read the above.
They just wish to gain another opportunity to get a dig in which might claw them back some support!