Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

Happyman42

Craptacular wrote: »

So they're a criminal gang with ideals. They're still a criminal gang.

What "more than that" are they about?

Technically an illegal organisation, but that doesn't mean they don't exist and are a growing threat, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Irish_Republican_Army

SocSocPol

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am not keeping up anything, I am saying it exists and trite, agenda laden condemnation is not the way to deal with it. The majority need to realise that a significant group have been left behind. That group is growing and if it kicks off like it did before then it will be too late to put the lid on again.
Burying your head in the sand and playing the establishment game of labelling these groups as common criminals is dangerous and iresponsible.
These groups are different to what are commonly called 'criminals', they may engage in criminality9name me a subversive group who haven't) but they are about more than that.




You want me to condemn them? Alright,...I condemn them, now what, are they gone?:rolleyes:

I have to disagree with you constantly referring to these criminals as a significant minority, they are no such thing.
They have no electoral mandate (Should be relatively easy to get councillors and MLA's elected if you are a SIGNIFICANT minority and there is little if any evidence of significant public support for them.
To me, and I believe the overwhelming majority on this Island these people are nothing other than organized criminals wrapping themselves in a flag of "republican" convenience.
There is no reason why society , north or south should make any move to accomodate their demands, if we do we may as well also move to accomodate the demands of John Gilligan, The Keanes, and Ratser Rattigan , as they have as much legitimacy as these deviant so called republicans.
Nor do I see anything wrong in condeming criminal behaviour, why should it not be condemed? will it hurt their feelings so much they will have to go out and shoot some more pizza delivery men?

Laminations

Einhard wrote: »

For An Garda to engage in a gun battle in that situation would have been absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Most definitely. I never suggested an armed response especially from an outnumbered force. For the Gardai to get into a situation that they couldn't police/or intervene in without risking lives is the bit I find unwise. They were underprepared for controlling such a crowd (of a certain demographic). A criticism they levelled at MCD in the wake of the Phoenix Park concert violence. I'm not belittling the intelligence gathered at the event or denying that arrests (have been) and will likely be made as a result of surveillance, I just disliked the gardai being in a position where they couldn't intervene and stop a public paramilitary display. I doubt they'll rely on promises and agreements at future funerals

Craptacular

Happyman42 wrote: »

Craptacular wrote: »

So they're a criminal gang with ideals. They're still a criminal gang.

What "more than that" are they about?

Technically an illegal organisation, but that doesn't mean they don't exist and are a growing threat, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Irish_Republican_Army

Never mind technically. If they engage in criminal activity they are criminals, yes?

Nobody's denying they exist. The Omagh relatives are well aware of their existence.

Happyman42

SocSocPol wrote: »

I have to disagree with you constantly referring to these criminals as a significant minority, they are no such thing.

How significant do you need them to be to be a threat to the island's stability? Another Omagh, 2 Omagh's 3, 4 ?

They have no electoral mandate (Should be relatively easy to get councillors and MLA's elected if you are a SIGNIFICANT minority and there is little if any evidence of significant public support for them..

What bit of dis-enfranchised and subversive do you not understand?

To me, and I believe the overwhelming majority on this Island these people are nothing other than organized criminals wrapping themselves in a flag of "republican" convenience

That is your assessment of who and what they are. Theirs is quite different and should concern the rest of us.

There is no reason why society , north or south should make any move to accomodate their demands, if we do we may as well also move to accomodate the demands of John Gilligan, The Keanes, and Ratser Rattigan , as they have as much legitimacy as these deviant so called republicans.
Nor do I see anything wrong in condeming criminal behaviour, why should it not be condemed? will it hurt their feelings so much they will have to go out and shoot some more pizza delivery men?

If as you say, RIRA and other groups are so hated, why would an ordinary criminal associate themselves with these groups? Wouldn't they, like Gilligan be shying away from the extra grief and hassle, association with subversives brings? Where is the dividend in the pocket? After all Gilligan and the Keanes didn't have any need to legitimise their activities, they robbed and plundered and terrorised anyway without the need to associate themselves with the IRA or any other subversive grouping.
Why would they be proudly taunting the Gardai at a funeral? Does it dawn on you at all, that paying the traditional respect to a fellow republican was more important than anything the Gardai might have done? Have you ever seen that kind of resolve before on this island?

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

If as you say, RIRA and other groups are so hated, why would an ordinary criminal associate themselves with these groups? Wouldn't they, like Gilligan be shying away from the extra grief and hassle, association with subversives brings? Where is the dividend in the pocket? After all Gilligan and the Keanes didn't have any need to legitimise their activities, they robbed and plundered and terrorised anyway without the need to associate themselves with the IRA or any other subversive grouping.
Why would they be proudly taunting the Gardai at a funeral? Does it dawn on you at all, that paying the traditional respect to a fellow republican was more important than anything the Gardai might have done? Have you ever seen that kind of resolve before on this island?

Just because somebody is prepared to bomb, murder and die for a cause, doesn't make the cause right.

hatrickpatrick

Laminations wrote: »

There is an undertone to your posts that suggests you think groups like RIRA should be given a platform, should be 'listened to', that their cause should be vieweed as a legitimate valid concern? It sounds very much like you are a terrorist sympathiser.

Just because you don't like what somebody has to day, doesn't mean you have the right to stop them from saying it. Same goes for me, same goes for everyone else.

Do you want to live in a society where the government or the mob tells you what opinions are and are not ok to air in public?

Before you accuse me also of being a terrorist sympathizer, I don't have to approve of somebody's message to be a supporter of freedom of speech.

Laminations

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Just because you don't like what somebody has to day, doesn't mean you have the right to stop them from saying it. Same goes for me, same goes for everyone else.

Do you want to live in a society where the government or the mob tells you what opinions are and are not ok to air in public?

Before you accuse me also of being a terrorist sympathizer, I don't have to approve of somebody's message to be a supporter of freedom of speech.

Say what you like. I've the right to ignore you. I've not suggested we ignore RIRA, that'd be foolish (I did start a thread that involves them), I'm suggesting we don't legitimise them, that we ridicule them, that we don't give their bigoted ignorant rubbish of 'drive the Brits out' the time of day. That's their opinion and they are entitled to it. What they are not entitled to do is impose it on others through violence, demand some negotiating power through terror and parade around firing weapons as if they are a legitimate army. That goes beyond freedom of speech. Firing guns in such a way is illegal, membership of subversive criminal groups is illegal, bombing, murder, extortion and all the other things they do to get their opinion across are illegal.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

Say what you like. I've the right to ignore you. I've not suggested we ignore RIRA, that'd be foolish (I did start a thread that involves them), I'm suggesting we don't legitimise them, that we ridicule them, that we don't give their bigoted ignorant rubbish of 'drive the Brits out' the time of day. That's their opinion and they are entitled to it. What they are not entitled to do is impose it on others through violence, demand some negotiating power through terror and parade around firing weapons as if they are a legitimate army. That goes beyond freedom of speech. Firing guns in such a way is illegal, membership of subversive criminal groups is illegal, bombing, murder, extortion and all the other things they do to get their opinion across are illegal.

But they are giving two fingers to your opinion too.....what do you do now as a responsible citizen?

A few pages in and you are already at an impossible impasse. :rolleyes:

M three

OP, not sure why you're surprised that "Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral" when they cant even enforce the law in the bloody dail....

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

But they are giving two fingers to your opinion too.....what do you do now as a responsible citizen?

A few pages in and you are already at an impossible impasse. :rolleyes:

My opinion is that a solution has been reached peacefully through the GFA which provides a roadmap for possible future reunification. This is the opinion held by the overwhelming majority on this island. To counter this opinion of a peaceful resolution they must engage in violence, and I think then the laws should deal with them. If they are just giving me the two fingers or disagreeing with me simply in words, like you are, then really I don't give a fvck. Let them. They have no legitimate cause and their terrorist actions are of no benefit to any imagined goals.

So let them voice their opinion, I've no problem with them posting here or handing out leaflets or standing on the street preaching hate. They just cant use violence if theyre ignored or ridiculed. If they do (and they quite clearly do) the law will deal with them. I'm sure the rest of us can manage to show them up as ignorant common criminals

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

They just cant use violence if theyre ignored or ridiculed. If they do (and they quite clearly do) the law will deal with them.

And my opinion is that the law can't and won't be able to deal with them. And the signing of the GFA is witness to the inability of a major military power to 'deal' with it. They spent many years trying (and cost many needless lives) by illegal means (shoot to kill, assasination etc) or by legal means (suppression and imprisonment). It didn't work and eventually they had to do a deal.

You are still at that impasse btw.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

And my opinion is that the law can't and won't be able to deal with them. And the signing of the GFA is witness to the inability of a major military power to 'deal' with it. They spent many years trying (and cost many needless lives) by illegal means (shoot to kill, assasination etc) or by legal means (suppression and imprisonment). It didn't work and eventually they had to do a deal.

You are still at that impasse btw.

What impasse? They had to do a deal because they'd always have to have done a deal because there was a dispute over the north and disagreement and disenfranchisement was significant. Not necessarily significant support for violent resistance, just a significant will for change and amicable resolution. You can keep trying to exaggerate their support but RIRA have very little backing and no political presence. They are a criminal gang. You have yet to tell me what points they are willing to negotiate?

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

What impasse?

The one you reached when you got to 'Let the law deal with them'.

They had to do a deal because they'd always have to have done a deal because there was a dispute over the north and disagreement and disenfranchisement was significant. Not necessarily significant support for violent resistance, just a significant will for change and amicable resolution.

You reckon everybody just wanted a hug? :rolleyes:

You can keep trying to exaggerate their support but RIRA have very little backing and no political presence. They are a criminal gang. You have yet to tell me what points they are willing to negotiate?

I didn't exaggerate their support or make any claims for them, or indeed speak for them.
Would you deny that they are growing and getting organised into a cohesive force. The recent amalgamation for instance?

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

The one you reached when you got to 'Let the law deal with them'.



You reckon everybody just wanted a hug? :rolleyes:



I didn't exaggerate their support or make any claims for them, or indeed speak for them.
Would you deny that they are growing and getting organised into a cohesive force. The recent amalgamation for instance?

The law deals with all criminal gangs here, not always successfully. Also many gangs have seen increases in numbers/activity and there've been almalgamations. On what point to RIRA want to negotiate anyway??

Monty Burnz

Laminations wrote: »

The law deals with all criminal gangs here, not always successfully. Also many gangs have seen increases in numbers/activity and there've been almalgamations. On what point to RIRA want to negotiate anyway??

I've asked Happyman on another thread what room he thinks there is for compromise between hardline nationalists and hardline loyalists opposed to the GFA.

No answer.

Tails142

Looks like they got them last night when they thought there were safe in bed

Big lads with their balaclavas around their ankles I'd say

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

The law deals with all criminal gangs here, not always successfully. Also many gangs have seen increases in numbers/activity and there've been almalgamations.

Did the application of the 'law' work in Northern Ireland? There are many many people in their graves on all sides because governments refused to see that the 'law' was never going to solve the problem.
Thatcher, who did more to entrench the sides than any other Prime Minister was in secret negotitations with these 'law breakers', so don't be climbing up on to your default higher moral ground to defend successive govermental failures. They failed their people, as they are failing them now.

On what point to RIRA want to negotiate anyway??

I have no idea, I also had no idea that a way forward could be found in the North.

Happyman42

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I've asked Happyman on another thread what room he thinks there is for compromise between hardline nationalists and hardline loyalists opposed to the GFA.

No answer.

Pathetic. You don't get an answer from an internet poster and that consolidates you position of 'do nothing and they'll go away'?:rolleyes:

I do not speak for RIRA, I don't agree with what they do. But I recognise that they exist and that they are a growing movement and that something other than suppresion and ignoring them will have to be done to secure any lasting peace on this Ireland.

Happyman42

Tails142 wrote: »

Looks like they got them last night when they thought there were safe in bed

Big lads with their balaclavas around their ankles I'd say

They came for 'men in their beds before', that achieved a lot didn't it? :rolleyes:

Sunnyisland

Tails142 wrote: »

Looks like they got them last night when they thought there were safe in bed

Big lads with their balaclavas around their ankles I'd say

I am sure the people who were hands on and directly involved with The Funeral were not surprised by this, Sure it was in the media already about what was going to happen so would have been expected,


Police in the Republic of Ireland plan to launch a crackdown on dissident republicans in the wake of a paramilitary display and volley of shots fired at the funeral of Real IRA terror boss Alan Ryan.
A series of Garda raids on the homes of dissidents in several counties is being organised, as officers build up evidence against..................


https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/gardai-vow-crackdown-after-alan-ryan-real-ira-funeral-16209325.html&sa=U&ei=lJVRUMjjHsXa0QXuwYGIDQ&ved=0CAYQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFsn0JzdKHVS-UxfSO_nVwVXDmxhA

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

Monty Burnz

Happyman42 wrote: »

Pathetic. You don't get an answer from an internet poster and that consolidates you position of 'do nothing and they'll go away'?:rolleyes:

No, I'm calling you on your 'we must negotiate' BS. Unless you can explain how two irreconcilable positions can be reconciled, you are clearly talking poppycock.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I do not speak for RIRA, I don't agree with what they do. But I recognise that they exist and that they are a growing movement and that something other than suppresion and ignoring them will have to be done to secure any lasting peace on this Ireland.

Can you please offer any proof that they are a growing movement? And even if they were growing, why should that change how they are regarded? If the Keane-Collopy gang keeps growing, should we offer them a seat at the cabinet?

Pathetic.

Monty Burnz

Happyman42 wrote: »

They came for 'men in their beds before', that achieved a lot didn't it? :rolleyes:

Why, is there a united Ireland and I didn't notice it? :rolleyes:

Happyman42

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why, is there a united Ireland and I didn't notice it? :rolleyes:

They came 'for men in their beds' almost 40 years ago in an attempt to suppress a growing movement.
Your glibness about what happened after that says a lot about you. The reaching triumphalism of the partitionist. :rolleyes:

.jacksparrow.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why, is there a united Ireland and I didn't notice it? :rolleyes:

They came 'for men in their beds' almost 40 years ago in an attempt to suppress a growing movement.
Your glibness about what happened after that says a lot about you. The reaching triumphalism of the partitionist. :rolleyes:

If only the gards put as much effort into catching the people who shot the man at half 3 in the day as kids where playing in a playground 15 metres away.

Don't think I have ever heard of 200 gards doing dawn raids on suspected drug dealers.

Dave!

Good to see that arrests have been made here. Weren't the RIRA lads hidden from sight after firing the shots, changed out of their uniforms, etc? I thought the people surrounded them with golf umbrellas? Would be hard to identify them so I would have thought.

Can people's presence at this funeral be used (presumably with other evidence and criminal records) to convict them of membership of an illegal organisation in the Special Criminal Court?

tayto lover

Happyman42 wrote: »

They came 'for men in their beds' almost 40 years ago in an attempt to suppress a growing movement.
Your glibness about what happened after that says a lot about you. The reaching triumphalism of the partitionist. :rolleyes:

There is a big difference between -

1. Defenders of the ghettos and
2. Defenders of the ghetto's drugs money.

But there is 40 years though.

Monty Burnz

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Don't think I have ever heard of 200 gards doing dawn raids on suspected drug dealers.

When drug-dealing gangs start committing crimes in public in front of TV cameras, you might see similar responses.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

Did the application of the 'law' work in Northern Ireland? There are many many people in their graves on all sides because governments refused to see that the 'law' was never going to solve the problem.
Thatcher, who did more to entrench the sides than any other Prime Minister was in secret negotitations with these 'law breakers', so don't be climbing up on to your default higher moral ground to defend successive govermental failures. They failed their people, as they are failing them now.


I have no idea, I also had no idea that a way forward could be found in the North.

You have now repeatedly tried to draw similarities between the current anti-GFA dissidents (which you claim you dont support) and previous factions of the IRA (which you do/did support). It kind of waters down your claims that you don't support the current gangsters if you see them as the same as the Provos. They are not similar in size, strength, support, aims, methods or ideals. They are not a significant player to be negotiated with as a resolution has been reached for the overwhelming majority. They are outcasts and outlaws, common criminals who have no bargaining power and nothing to offer as part of a compromise.

I only wish that previous IRA men serious about peace would inform on them all but I've been told OB these boards that that has likely happened already.