Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

. What are you going to do about it, is the real question.

They think differently. Again, what solutions have you other than wipe them out or violently suppress. Those mistakes where made before and look where it got us.

Violently suppress? Wipe them out? Are you just inventing posts here?

How is crowd control, interference and disruption of their paramilitary activities wiping them out or violently suppressing them? We have freedoms of expression, they don't extend to putting on subversive paramilitary parades.

What'll I do? Berate, belittle and discredit the lunatics at every opportunity I get. They don't deserve a platform, they don't deserve some consideration of their point of view, they are common criminals, an organised gang involved in murder extortion and terrorism. What'll you do? Continue to think they have legitimate concerns and suggest we all hear them out?? Are you a terrorist sympathiser because it sounds like you are sympathising with these dissidents....or do you think they are freedom fighters?

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

Violently suppress? Wipe them out? Are you just inventing posts here?

How is crowd control, interference and disruption of their paramilitary activities wiping them out or violently suppressing them? We have freedoms of expression, they don't extend to putting on subversive paramilitary parades.

What would the gardai do....ask them to stop? What then, force and supression.
We had somebody on here who thought the solution lay in the deployment of snipers.

What'll I do? Berate, belittle and discredit the lunatics at every opportunity I get. They don't deserve a platform, they don't deserve some consideration of their point of view,

And it will be as useless as the condemnation has always been.

they are common criminals, an organised gang involved in murder extortion and terrorism.

Heard it all before from the same sources, same newspapers.

What'll you do? Continue to think they have legitimate concerns and suggest we all hear them out?? Are you a terrorist sympathiser because it sounds like you are sympathising with these dissidents....or do you think they are freedom fighters?

I'll continue to listen to those who recognise what the real issues are and why they are issues.
What I won't do is sit on the high moral ground and engage in pointless condemnation and name calling.

hatrickpatrick

Laminations wrote: »

Violently suppress? Wipe them out? Are you just inventing posts here?

How is crowd control, interference and disruption of their paramilitary activities wiping them out or violently suppressing them? We have freedoms of expression, they don't extend to putting on subversive paramilitary parades.

What'll I do? Berate, belittle and discredit the lunatics at every opportunity I get. They don't deserve a platform, they don't deserve some consideration of their point of view, they are common criminals, an organised gang involved in murder extortion and terrorism. What'll you do? Continue to think they have legitimate concerns and suggest we all hear them out?? Are you a terrorist sympathiser because it sounds like you are sympathising with these dissidents....or do you think they are freedom fighters?

Out of interest, if they hadn't had guns at this event would you still be suggesting that we "suppress" them?

I'm starting to get the feeling from these posts that your issue with this goes beyond the firing of a firearm in public and into the realm of seeking to silence them completely, which would be a serious violation of freedom of speech. That worked really well the last time it was tried, didn't it?

And by the way, I think the RIRA are... Well I can't use the words I'd like to because Boards' almighty banhammer will fall in my general direction, but I loathe them with a passion, what happened in Omagh is enough by itself to hate these guys (in fact in my opinion, even those who DO support violent uprising should still condemn the RIRA) - but thats irrelevant. Banning parades etc is tantamount to a free speech violation and in a democracy that isn't on. They have every right to assemble and have a funeral procession.

If I'm misinterpreting your post and your only problem with this was the firing of weapons, then I apologize for misinterpreting it.

Laminations

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm starting to get the feeling from these posts that your issue with this goes beyond the firing of a firearm in public and into the realm of seeking to silence them completely, which would be a serious violation of freedom of speech. That worked really well the last time it was tried, didn't it?

Banning parades etc is tantamount to a free speech violation and in a democracy that isn't on. They have every right to assemble and have a funeral procession.

If they want to parade let them bang a drum or play their flutes. Freedom of speech does not extend to granting terrorists the right to hold a paramilitary parade. Nor does the right to assemble confer the right to be a member of a paramilitary organisation.

The gardai were in a position where they could not intervene. That is regrettable but even the Minister for Justice isn't suggesting that paramilitaries have a right to hold these public demonstrations

MINISTER FOR Justice Alan Shatter has described as “reprehensible and absolutely unacceptable” the public show of paramilitary strength, including a gun salute, at the funeral of murdered Real IRA member Alan Ryan.

They should be ashamed of themselves, using a funeral as an opportunity to flex their muscle...and issue death threats

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

Thanks for that, the scene of the detective climbing out of the ditch soaking wet made my day

tayto lover wrote: »

You would probably be the first to run to him crying if anything happened to one of your family. You need to cop on just like the fools involved in the funeral farce.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0912/1224323911759.html

Typical.

'Gardai protect us. Investigate crimes against us. PS we hate you, hassle and abuse you. And we'll frustrate your efforts in policing and won't cooperate in your investigations of crimes against others'.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0912/1224323911759.html

Typical.

'Gardai protect us. Investigate crimes against us. PS we hate you, hassle and abuse you. And we'll frustrate your efforts in policing and won't cooperate in your investigations of crimes against others'.

The detective was a member of 'The Heavy Gang'.
Where you sleeping safely in your bed while they were doing their special brand of even handed and protective policing?
Maybe FG can see to it that they are brought back again so that the interests of the 'peace' loving, non 'violent' (when it suits them) section of the community can be 'protected'?
You are making the same mistakes the previous generation made, the Heavy Gang saw to it that positions became more entrenched, that previously uninvolved people became involved and that the Guards themselves (by dint of the fact that they where maintaining the border and the will of the Crown) became targets.

JustinDee

Laminations wrote: »

It depends how dangerous and incendiary their message is. There is a disillusioned unemployed undereducated youth in this country who are looking for a cause, looking for something to galvanise them and channel their anger. My point is that preparedness and crowd control should have meant the situation shouldn't have gotten to the point of being volatile. Definitely interference with the crowd at the funeral would have escalated (and possibly been a trigger point for galvanising support for dissidents). It should never have been allowed get to a position where the gardai could not act. I cannot see how proper crowd control would have benefitted them, it would've inconvenienced them but in small enough groups to be manageable. Also i would think its best To challenge and discredit the movement while it's minor rather than let them spread their message freely

Volatility wasn't created. It comes with the territory when a small crowd of delusive individuals gather for an alleged show of strength (more the threat of though). You keep bringing up that it should never have been allowed to become tense. It was a gangland killing. Of course it is going to be a volatile situation.
Gardai handled situation admirably and perfectly and as a bonus, got to add more faces to surveillance target lists. Biggest mistake this gang could have made was going for publicity.

Laminations wrote: »

Additionally yes the media could have completely ignored it, but ive been told a few times, they gotsta sell papers.

Regardless of your view on the incident, it is news at the end of the day.

SaoriseBiker

SocSocPol wrote: »

Perhaps because most posters recognise that the greater threat to the state is from the likes of these organized crime gangs who masquerade as "freedom fighters". Alan Ryan was a leader in an organized crime gang, he live and drew his power from terror, the state owes it to decent law abiding people to do all possible to ensure the other criminals in his gang are not allowed to arrange a public show of force especially one that involves gangsters firing guns in public in a residential area.

The greatest threat to this state is the crime gang who masquerade as "the forces of law and order" in their various disguises in the north east Ireland who have murdered more people on either side of the border down the years than the RIRA could ever hope to do, i.e. the British forces. The state owes it to all it's citizens including those who have broke the law in the past to do all possible to ensure the other criminals are not allowed to arrange a public show of force especially one that involves gangsters shooting someone dead on the street. Anything else is blatant hypocrisy, something we're too familiar with in this corrupt, rotten Gombeen state.

JustinDee

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

The greatest threat to this state is the crime gang who masquerade as "the forces of law and order" in the north east Ireland who have murdered more people on either side of the border down the years than the RIRA could ever hope to do, i.e. the British forces. The state owes it to all it's citizens including those who have broke the law in the past to do all possible to ensure the other criminals are not allowed to arrange a public show of force especially one that involves gangsters shooting someone dead on the street. Anything else is blatant hypocrisy, something we're too familiar with in this corrupt, rotten Gombeen state.

I suggest you take a peek at some statistics covering the so-called Troubles, dear anonymous fellow. After that, be a little less selective with your theorisations.

SaoriseBiker

JustinDee wrote: »

I suggest you take a peek at some statistics covering the so-called Troubles, dear anonymous fellow. After that, be a little less selective with your theorisations.

Clearly your the one who needs to take a peep at some statistics. Here ya go for the various organizations including the RIRA on both sides of the border http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

(BTW, I'm not a supporter of the RIRA by any means, but I cannot understand the hypocrisy of being more concerned about wearing military uniforms than the shooting of someone dead on the street, a person who obviously was well respected by his community it should be said)

JustinDee

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Clearly your the one who needs to take a peep at some statistics. Here ya go for the various organizations including the RIRA on both sides of the border http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

Thanks for that simplistic list. Even that shows the extreme tilt in your claim.

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

(BTW, I'm not a supporter of the RIRA by any means, but I cannot understand the hypocrisy of being more concerned about wearing military uniforms than the shooting of someone dead on the street, a person who obviously was well respected by his community it should be said)

"Respected by his community"? You're basing this on what exactly? Which community?

Laminations

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Clearly your the one who needs to take a peep at some statistics. Here ya go for the various organizations including the RIRA on both sides of the border http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html
The IRA killed most people during the Troubles. Even if they didn't what do the Troubles have to do with this organised crime gang?

(BTW, I'm not a supporter of the RIRA by any means,

well you say that but by trying to link their brand of murder extortion and terrorism to the Troubles, you obviously think they have a legitimate cause.

but I cannot understand the hypocrisy of being more concerned about wearing military uniforms than the shooting of someone dead on the street, a person who obviously was well respected by his community it should be said)

Don't confuse respect with fear. And you need to clarify what 'community' you are referring to.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/24385

So you must mean he was held in high regard by his fellow criminals and terrorists. So bleedin what

SaoriseBiker

JustinDee wrote: »

Thanks for that simplistic list. Even that shows the extreme tilt in your claim.

"Respected by his community"? You're basing this on what exactly? Which community?

Watching the news and seeing the turn out in the neighborhood.

SaoriseBiker

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html
The IRA killed most people during the Troubles. Even if they didn't what do the Troubles have to do with this organised crime gang?



well you say that but by trying to link their brand of murder extortion and terrorism to the Troubles, you obviously think they have a legitimate cause.



Don't confuse respect with fear. And you need to clarify what 'community' you are referring to.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/24385

So you must mean he was held in high regard by his fellow criminals and terrorists. So bleedin what

Your the one who brought up the subject of the biggest murder gang in the country, I pointed out who it is. As for SF, clearly they don't speak for the people who actually knew Alan Ryan. Again I repeat I am not a RIRA supporter.

( the denouncements of AR are it should be said, are almost verbatim what was said when Martin Doherty was murdered trying to prevent the British dirty tricks dept gang the UVF blowing up the Widow Scallans pub on Pearse St some years ago)

JustinDee

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Your the one who brought up the subject of the biggest murder gang in the country, I pointed out who it is.

Yes, the Provisionals.

JustinDee

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Watching the news and seeing the turn out in the neighborhood.

Die-hard and deluded supporters/activists from Scotland or Northern Ireland hardly constitute what anyone would normally infer as someone's "community".

Happyman42

JustinDee wrote: »

Die-hard and deluded supporters/activists from Scotland or Northern Ireland hardly constitute what anyone would normally infer as someone's "community".

How do you know where they all came from? Source?

Fenian Army

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

VinLieger

Fenian Army wrote: »

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

Exactly the same can be said for the vast majority of those who call themselves "Republicans"

Fenian Army

VinLieger wrote: »

Exactly the same can be said for the vast majority of those who call themselves "Republicans"

lol, the vast majority of republicans support the peace process.

VinLieger

Fenian Army wrote: »

lol, the vast majority of republicans support the peace process.

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

Fenian Army

VinLieger wrote: »

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

It was republicans who were consistently excluded and censored. Amazing how when that changed progress was made isn't it?

Happyman42

VinLieger wrote: »

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

The republicans who signed up to the agreement, have fervently supported the peace process when it accommodated fairly their aspirations and rights as equal citizens. They rejected all other attempts until those rights where enshrined in the agreement, because it would not have worked otherwise. The other parties to the agreement accepted that stance when they signed.
They also accepted their parts and the implicit blame for the conflict arising,(as did Mrs Winsdor when she dropped over for a visit) and the rights of others to 'aspire' to a united Ireland and British withdrawal.That others played a part in the conflict and that they are equally blameworthy is what people like Laminations have problems accepting. Just as they have problems with fairly apportioning reponsibility for solving the current rise in militant republicanism.

JustinDee

Fenian Army wrote: »

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

Childish surely?
You post as if we should all be grateful to the protagonists. Following on from the hijacking of civil rights movement, the democracy they allegedly sought was still right in front of their very noses in the first place.

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

What?? I support the peace process, fully. RIRA and the dissidents do not support the peace process. Yet if I had my way there would be no peace process? Where there was violence and hate there is now a roadmap for reunification that was democratically approved. Since this roadmap (the GFA) now exists there is no longer any justification for violence and hate, especially if it is just criminal thuggery that in no way betters the lot of anyone in the north or south.

Laminations

VinLieger wrote: »

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

seriously... like what?

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

It was republicans who were consistently excluded and censored. Amazing how when that changed progress was made isn't it?

There is an undertone to your posts that suggests you think groups like RIRA should be given a platform, should be 'listened to', that their cause should be vieweed as a legitimate valid concern? It sounds very much like you are a terrorist sympathiser.

Fenian Army

Laminations wrote: »

seriously... like what?

You sound like the hacks from the SINDO in the early nineties who slated Hume etc, you view things too black and white with no concern for the consequences (like an old poster, Liam Byrne, you'd like him). If we did things your way it would benefit the people who you are targeting.

Fenian Army

Laminations wrote: »

There is an undertone to your posts that suggests you think groups like RIRA should be given a platform, should be 'listened to', that their cause should be vieweed as a legitimate valid concern? It sounds very much like you are a terrorist sympathiser.

Of course they should be engaged with, ignoring them and censoring them isnt going to work, nor is interning or imprisoning them.

Saying that people should be talked to doesn't mean you agree with what they have to say ffs

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

What?? I support the peace process, fully. RIRA and the dissidents do not support the peace process. Yet if I had my way there would be no peace process? Where there was violence and hate there is now a roadmap for reunification that was democratically approved. Since this roadmap (the GFA) now exists there is no longer any justification for violence and hate, especially if it is just criminal thuggery that in no way betters the lot of anyone in the north or south.

The origins of the conflict from 1969 are in the fact that a section of Irish people where left behind and left to suffer the discrimination meted out by the Unionist state. The GFA agreement largely dealt with that, the GFA agreement came about because violence forced ALL parties to the table. But others where left behind by the GFA, they DIDN'T sign up to it, and are resolutely refusing to recognise it. You can ignore them and hope they go away, but history has shown us that they won't and futile, useless condemnation and suppression wouldn't speed that up either.