Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

Laminations

Shatter is defending the Garda inaction during Ryans funeral where shots were fired and civilians paraded in paramilitary garb. He seems to be speaking out of both sides of his mouth describing some of the events at the funeral in Dublin at the weekend as "scandalous" and "unacceptable", while defending the Gardai for ignoring the unacceptable. It was a total lack of force by the Gardai and lack of preparation for such an incendiary event.

Mr Shatter said those on duty had to make "proper and mature" judgements, adding that there were people at the funeral who would have been happy to bring about "a major confrontation".

So under implicit threats from a militant crowd the Gardai let them do as they wished, right in the middle of Dublin. Possibly, being as unprepared as they were they were better not intervening, but why bother sending any Gardai at all if they were outmatched by the crowd.

The army should have been drafted in at short notice and in large numbers to support the Gardai so the funeral could have been properly policed. Anyone caught donning a balaclava or playing dress up as a super army soldier should have been removed and whoever thought it appropriate to bring a gun and fire it should have been caught and arrested. There is only one army of Ireland

Fratton Fred

In an ideal world, yes, but starting a battle in a residential area would have ended badly.

The sooner people stop supporting these illegitimate organisations the better. These ***** talk about sovereignty, yet blatantly ignored the laws Ireland.

hardCopy

I think it would have been unwise for the Gards to move in with a combination of armed paramilitaries, angry sympathisers and innocent civilians.

TheChizler

And weren't the shots fired near his house? There's no law solely against wearing a mask without the intention of committing a crime.

barney 20v

The Irish state does not have an "army"...... it has a Defence Force.

MaxSteele

A racketeer and thug being given a gun salute like he was some sort of hero. Sick.

These modern day idiots have given a fierce kick in the face to deceased republicans who actually died for legitimate political reasons instead of controlling protection and drug rackets.

Like it's effing Donaghmede, not the Bogside, Falls road or border area. Wannabe's and dress up enthusiasts. Ignore.

A Primal Nut

Surely the fact that it went off peacefully in the end showed that the Gardai acted responsibly.

If the Gardai did move in; then who knows what kind of chaos we'd be talking about here, and no doubt the same people would be complaining that the gardai were heavy-handed.

You have to pick your battles in life; the Gardai made a decision to stand back and it worked.

A Primal Nut

barney 20v wrote: »

The Irish state does not have an "army"...... it has a Defence Force.

The armed forces of Ireland, known as the Defence Forces (Irish: Óglaigh na hÉireann[4]) encompass the Army, Naval Service, Air Corps and Reserve Defence Force.

http://www.military.ie/army

barney 20v

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The armed forces of Ireland, known as the Defence Forces (Irish: Óglaigh na hÉireann[4]) encompass the Army, Naval Service, Air Corps and Reserve Defence Force.

http://www.military.ie/army

That directed to me?

A Primal Nut

barney 20v wrote: »

That directed to me?

Yep.

barney 20v

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Yep.

why~?

seamus

Laminations wrote: »

The army should have been drafted in at short notice and in large numbers to support the Gardai so the funeral could have been properly policed. Anyone caught donning a balaclava or playing dress up as a super army soldier should have been removed and whoever thought it appropriate to bring a gun and fire it should have been caught and arrested. There is only one army of Ireland

Yeah, when you have a few hundred neanderthals lining the street with vociferous hatred of the Gardai and the State, sending in the army with weapons to disrupt a funeral and start lifting people out of the crowd would have caused no problems at all.

Hopefully I don't need to indicate my sarcasm there.

Far better off to maintain surveillance, take a few photos and then lift and arrest those involved when they're not surrounded by a mob of thugs.

Dannyboy83

Don't understand why he was given a paramilitary funeral.

Even report in the media talked about how he was just a mafia man who actually screwed over the paramilitaries by pocketing their fundraising.:pac:

Laminations

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Surely the fact that it went off peacefully in the end showed that the Gardai acted responsibly.

And suggests it is acceptable. We really cannot be allowing an illegal paramilitary gangs to be challenging the powers of the state.

If the Gardai did move in; then who knows what kind of chaos we'd be talking about here, and no doubt the same people would be complaining that the gardai were heavy-handed.

I very rarely complain about Gardai being heavy-handed. I'm not suggesting they should have gone in unprovoked. I'm saying they should have been there better prepared, in larger numbers with the support of the army to remind people who the legitimate peacekeepers are. And, if provoked or assaulted while making an arrest, then respond as they would if it was any other gang of thugs.

You have to pick your battles in life; the Gardai made a decision to stand back and it worked.

Worked in what sense? To show they were afraid of RIRA thugs? To show that displays of paramilitarism go unchecked?

Laminations

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, when you have a few hundred neanderthals lining the street with vociferous hatred of the Gardai and the State, sending in the army with weapons to disrupt a funeral and start lifting people out of the crowd would have caused no problems at all.

Hopefully I don't need to indicate my sarcasm there.

Far better off to maintain surveillance, take a few photos and then lift and arrest those involved when they're not surrounded by a mob of thugs.

Oh, god forbid we cause problems with policing. Much better to show deference to criminal gangs. It wasn't some sombre respectful funeral with the gun toting 'neanderthals lining the street' so you can't suggest it would be some disrespectful act to break it up, or intervene. Its a sorry state of affairs when we have law enforcement that amounts to 'I can't arrest them, they wouldn't like it, and they might cause trouble'

Did they see who fired the shots with their surveillance?

seamus

Laminations wrote: »

Oh, god forbid we cause problems with policing. Much better to show deference to criminal gangs. It wasn't some sombre respectful funeral with the gun toting 'neanderthals lining the street' so you can't suggest it would be some disrespectful act to break it up, or intervene. Its a sorry state of affairs when we have law enforcement that amounts to 'I can't arrest them, they wouldn't like it, and they might cause trouble'

You're taking the piss, right?

You do realise that going in and lifting people out of it would have resulted in rioting, and probably a large number of police officers being injured, if not killed? Not to mention the other damage that rioting usually causes.

Any for what, so that we could have prevented some guys from firing guns into the air and playing at army men?

You take risks where taking risks is warranted. There were no crimes committed at the funeral that warranted risking the safety and the lives of the Gardai or army.

Laminations

The funeral was the biggest show of strength in the Republic to date by dissident republicans.

...

The actions were very similar to the firing of volleys at IRA funerals during the Troubles.

This was allowed happen.

A Primal Nut

barney 20v wrote: »

why~?

You said the Irish state doesn't have an army, but it does. It's one part of the Defence Force. It just refers to the part of the defence force equipped for fighting on land.

Laminations

seamus wrote: »

You're taking the piss, right?

You do realise that going in and lifting people out of it would have resulted in rioting, and probably a large number of police officers being injured, if not killed? Not to mention the other damage that rioting usually causes.

Any for what, so that we could have prevented some guys from firing guns into the air and playing at army men?

You take risks where taking risks is warranted. There were no crimes committed at the funeral that warranted risking the safety and the lives of the Gardai or army.

The gardai needed to be there in bigger numbers, they could also have restricted access to the area, and been supported by the army. Suggesting the gang of mourners would have threatened the lives of the Gardai is only greater grounds for them to deal with that gang of mourners.

And what are the priests of Holy Trinity church in Donaghmede doing letting this criminal have a Catholic funeral mass? And then spouting hypocrisy at the funeral: "All of us were shocked and horrified by Alan's death last Monday afternoon. Such an act of barbaric violence is abhorrent to all of us" Well, not all of us, not most people at that funeral and certainly not the deceased

martomcg

I agree the Gardai did the right thing by not getting involved. Polititions now bashing them isnt fair.

The Gardai play second fiddle to the likes of the Real IRA, who would've had no problem resorting to violence if they tried to disrupt the funeral.

Laminations

seamus wrote: »

There were no crimes committed at the funeral that warranted risking the safety and the lives of the Gardai or army.

I consider subversion a serious matter.

cursai

The whole scenario im sure was weighed up by the officer in charge. A few shots fired is better than people getting seriously hurt. And im sure the shooters will be prosecuted in time.

seamus

Laminations wrote: »

The gardai needed to be there in bigger numbers, they could also have restricted access to the area, and been supported by the army. Suggesting the gang of mourners would have threatened the lives of the Gardai is only greater grounds for them to deal with that gang of mourners.

I bet there are plenty of Gardai glad that you're not in charge.
I think the problem is that you're treating this as some kind of war, where a show of strength is preferable. Which, funnily enough, gives legitimacy to these idiots.

Basically the crimes here were firing weapons in public and dressing up as army men. What is so abhorrent about these crimes that it's worth putting the lives of Gardai in danger? Why not watch what's happening and then lift the perpetrators later on when they're not surrounded by their mates?

Laminations

martomcg wrote: »

The Gardai play second fiddle to the likes of the Real IRA, who would've had no problem resorting to violence if they tried to disrupt the funeral.

And allowing people who have that mindset to get their own way, demonstrating your powerlessness to stop them, will be a benefit in the long run when they show even less respect to or notice of the Gardai. The Gardai acted responsibly for the position they found themselves in - outnumbered with a potentially violent crowd. My point is they should never have found themselves in that position.

Some of their criticisms of MCD's failure to police a crowd of 80,000 can be levelled back at them

• Greater consideration should be given to venue selection for electronic music. allowing a dissident funeral in a populated area
• MCDGardai did not have appropriate security measures in place for the Swedish House Mafia concertfuneral and associated crowd demographic.

Laminations

seamus wrote: »

I bet there are plenty of Gardai glad that you're not in charge.
I think the problem is that you're treating this as some kind of war, where a show of strength is preferable. Which, funnily enough, gives legitimacy to these idiots.

Basically the crimes here were firing weapons in public and dressing up as army men. What is so abhorrent about these crimes that it's worth putting the lives of Gardai in danger?

It proliferates the rot that these thugs represent and protect the working classes rather than the gardai. It makes them look legitimate (or at least unchallenged)in some people eyes.

Why not watch what's happening and then lift the perpetrators later on when they're not surrounded by their mates?

Because they cannot be seen as they are surrounded by their mates? The gardai shouyld also not be ignoring the 'mates' or dissident terrorist thugs.

snafuk35

If the Gardaí and the Army had moved in on that crowd there would have been a gun battle with multiple deaths and injuries. Innocent people would have been potentially killed or injured in the crossfire.

The Gardaí took pictures and video of every person who went to that funeral. Some of those people can be targeted for arrest, others can be pressured into becoming informers and so on.

Dubhlinner

Laminations in a non-police state this sort of event is very difficult to deal with.

Had the ERU or Army tried to arrest the firing party civillians would have jumped in their way. this could lead to a scuffle which could then lead to dead civillians because the gardai know they could be fired on. The IRA do not intentionally target the gardai but they'd have no issues shooting at them if they were being pursued for arrest.

These dead civillians lead to huge recruitment for 32csm/RIRA even if they die through their own actions

Look at it this way - the RUC and British Army allowed these funerals take place during the troubles. They're too difficult to prevent without risking severe consequences

All in all its a regrettable situation but on balance the security forces couldn't have handled it any better.

VinLieger

In this instance policing simply for policing's sake doesnt work, they took photos and videos and will hopefully lift those responsible in the coming days. Any effort made by the gardai to halt this stuff would have led to a riot and many gardai being injured which would have been an even bigger fiasco and my bet is you would have been on here complaining about that.
Drafting in the army is a stupid idea and would have been a pr disaster for the gardai and a massive win for the scum as it would basically be an admittance that the gardai cant handle them, and give them the impression that they are a relevant army that can only be dealt with by the actual army instead of being the lowlife criminals and scum that they actually are that is the responsibility of the gardai

snafuk35

VinLieger wrote: »

In this instance policing simply for policing's sake doesnt work, they took photos and videos and will hopefully lift those responsible in the coming days. Any effort made by the gardai to halt this stuff would have led to a riot and many gardai being injured which would have been an even bigger fiasco and my bet is you would have been on here complaining about that.
Drafting in the army is a stupid idea and would have been a pr disaster for the gardai and a massive win for the scum as it would basically be an admittance that the gardai cant handle them, and give them the impression that they are a relevant army that can only be dealt with by the actual army instead of being the lowlife criminals and scum that they actually are that is the responsibility of the gardai

Also the army would most likely be armed if they were backing up the police and if anything kicked off it risked civilians deaths.

Laminations

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Laminations in a non-police state this sort of event is very difficult to deal with.

Had the ERU or Army tried to arrest the firing party civillians would have jumped in their way. this could lead to a scuffle which could then lead to dead civillians because the gardai know they could be fired on. The IRA do not intentionally target the gardai but they'd have no issues shooting at them if they were being pursued for arrest.

These dead civillians lead to huge recruitment for 32csm/RIRA even if they die through their own actions

Look at it this way - the RUC and British Army allowed these funerals take place during the troubles. They're too difficult to prevent without risking severe consequences

All in all its a regrettable situation but on balance the security forces couldn't have handled it any better.

I love the way you continue to refer to them as 'civilians' even after they have (in your hypothetical situation, which I'm not disputing would be a likely outcome had the gardai policed the funeral) assaulted or otherwise interfered with arresting officers. So in your eyes you can obstruct officers and still maintain the innocence of a civilian and incur the outrage of the populace if in any way interfered with?

They could have outnumbered the crowd by limiting access to the area, they could have searched the crowd for weapons upon entry to the area (as they do with far larger events - and as they expect private security to do). We will only see more brazen defiance of the gardai now.

PS - this is not the Troubles, nor are the gardai the much maligned RUC, they are the democratically sanctioned police force, tackling crime (you'd hope without fear or favour) and without any sectarian baggage.

Laminations

snafuk35 wrote: »

Also the army would most likely be armed if they were backing up the police and if anything kicked off it risked civilians deaths.

Yes because the Gardai and army are so undisciplined they'd fire into a crowd. Or do you mean the few armed dissidents would open fire on the Irish army? And that the crowd would support them in showing such a total disregard for the safety of the other funeral goers?

Ash.J.Williams

by the way anybody who thinks firing a gun while dressed up in a costume, surrounded by a ring of steel holding up umbrellas so nobody can see is some sort of victory is very misguided.

Fenian Army

The Brits knew better than to interfere with IRA funerals in the north (which admittedly tended to be much larger), just not worth it.

A few guns were fired in the air, big whoop. Better than people getting hurt.

There would have been a big riot if the Garda tried to interfere.

Laminations

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

by the way anybody who thinks firing a gun while dressed up in a costume, surrounded by a ring of steel holding up umbrellas so nobody can see is some sort of victory is very misguided.

Very true, but those people are out there. Most people at that funeral are probably of that mindset

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

I love the way you continue to refer to them as 'civilians' even after they have (in your hypothetical situation, which I'm not disputing would be a likely outcome had the gardai policed the funeral) assaulted or otherwise interfered with arresting officers. So in your eyes you can obstruct officers and still maintain the innocence of a civilian and incur the outrage of the populace if in any way interfered with?

They could have outnumbered the crowd by limiting access to the area, they could have searched the crowd for weapons upon entry to the area (as they do with far larger events - and as they expect private security to do). We will only see more brazen defiance of the gardai now.

PS - this is not the Troubles, nor are the gardai the much maligned RUC, they are the democratically sanctioned police force, tackling crime (you'd hope without fear or favour) and without any sectarian baggage.

So, tell us, would you be happy now if the Gardai did confront these armed men and people had died as a result, as long as the law had been upheld?
This is one of those occasions where a more subtle approach to the investigation pays dividends, not only that it keeps everyone SAFE!

What you're suggesting is downright Dredd-esque.

Laminations

karma_ wrote: »

So, tell us, would you be happy now if the Gardai did confront these armed men and people had died as a result, as long as the law had been upheld?
This is one of those occasions where a more subtle approach to the investigation pays dividends, not only that it keeps everyone SAFE!

What you're suggesting is downright Dredd-esque.

No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.

snafuk35

Laminations wrote: »

No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.

If any of those measures had been taken, the crowd would have rioted. A riot situation might have escalated and resulted in fatalities.

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.

Dredd-esque in that your suggestion proposes rigid application of the law in spite of consequence.

There are other ways of bringing these men to justice which are preferential to forcing a confrontation with them or their supporters.

Ash.J.Williams

Laminations wrote: »

No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.

the shots were fired outside the house....that may have been a little more dificult to predict and prevent

snafuk35

Laminations wrote: »

Yes because the Gardai and army are so undisciplined they'd fire into a crowd. Or do you mean the few armed dissidents would open fire on the Irish army? And that the crowd would support them in showing such a total disregard for the safety of the other funeral goers?

If gunshots were fired at the Gardaí and Army they would be forced to respond and fire at the gunman or gunmen shooting at them. Stray rounds would hit civilians if the gunman or gunmen were in the crowd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHY1l0XuzAI

Something similar happened in South Africa.

Laminations

snafuk35 wrote: »

If any of those measures had been taken, the crowd would have rioted. A riot situation might have escalated and resulted in fatalities.

So the message is - if you police us, we will riot.

karma_ wrote: »

Dredd-esque in that your suggestion proposes rigid application of the law in spite of consequence.

Using consequences as a deterrent is sometimes referred to as 'making threats'.

There are other ways of bringing these men to justice which are preferential to forcing a confrontation with them or their supporters.

Maybe if the Gardai prevented a few hundred supporters from entering the area it would've been easier. Maybe if political pressure was put on the church (if such a reversal of influence could happen) then the funeral wouldn't have been officiated by any priest in a populated working class area? In light of the criticism of MCD over failure to preempt violence at the Phoenix Park concert, do you think it was wise for the Gardai / church to allow such an incendiary event in that location?

TheChizler

Laminations wrote: »

snafuk35 wrote: »

If any of those measures had been taken, the crowd would have rioted. A riot situation might have escalated and resulted in fatalities.

So the message is - if you police us, we will riot.

karma_ wrote: »

Dredd-esque in that your suggestion proposes rigid application of the law in spite of consequence.

Using consequences as a deterrent is sometimes referred to as 'making threats'.

There are other ways of bringing these men to justice which are preferential to forcing a confrontation with them or their supporters.

Maybe if the Gardai prevented a few hundred supporters from entering the area it would've been easier. Maybe if political pressure was put on the church (if such a reversal of influence could happen) then the funeral wouldn't have been officiated by any priest in a populated working class area? In light of the criticism of MCD over failure to preempt violence at the Phoenix Park concert, do you think it was wise for the Gardai / church to allow such an incendiary event in that location?

What laws were broken at the funeral itself?

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

So the message is - if you police us, we will riot.



Using consequences as a deterrent is sometimes referred to as 'making threats'.



Maybe if the Gardai prevented a few hundred supporters from entering the area it would've been easier. Maybe if political pressure was put on the church (if such a reversal of influence could happen) then the funeral wouldn't have been officiated by any priest in a populated working class area? In light of the criticism of MCD over failure to preempt violence at the Phoenix Park concert, do you think it was wise for the Gardai / church to allow such an incendiary event in that location?

I see a lot of 'maybes' and 'what ifs' and not a lot of substance.

Dubhlinner

Laminations wrote: »

I love the way you continue to refer to them as 'civilians' even after they have (in your hypothetical situation, which I'm not disputing would be a likely outcome had the gardai policed the funeral) assaulted or otherwise interfered with arresting officers. So in your eyes you can obstruct officers and still maintain the innocence of a civilian and incur the outrage of the populace if in any way interfered with?

Was just talking pragmatically. If those guys blocked police and the end result was a firefight & dead or injured people the gardai would be painted as murdering unarmed civilians. I touched on this in my previous post when I said "These dead civillians lead to huge recruitment for 32csm/RIRA even if they die through their own actions"

They could have outnumbered the crowd by limiting access to the area, they could have searched the crowd for weapons upon entry to the area (as they do with far larger events - and as they expect private security to do). We will only see more brazen defiance of the gardai now.

Hard to do at an event as sensitive as a funeral. You'd have hundreds of people refusing to be searched. Some manipulating the law others because they genuinely don't want to be harassed when they're grieving.

Its a really tough one to call. paramilitaries know this and take advantage

PS - this is not the Troubles, nor are the gardai the much maligned RUC, they are the democratically sanctioned police force, tackling crime (you'd hope without fear or favour) and without any sectarian baggage.

The RUC weren't as different to the garda as official history makes out.

You'll also note the psni allow(or rather dont prevent) firing squads at IRA funerals. Besides the point though - the reason they weren't stopped is the RUC knew forcing them to be stopped wasn't worth the fall out.

I'm not sure what I can say to convince you. I think a more heavy handed approach would have played into the hands of 32csm/RIRA so I'm glad it wasn't taken.

Hedgemeister

Yesterday, whether they realise it or not, was a big test for the Gardai...the dipping of Republican toes in the water to see how they would react, and how much support parading masked gunmen would get in our capital city. In the run-up to the 1916 centenary we'll see a lot more of this stuff I reckon, because the Gardai failed their test, and, far from making 'a wise decision' it appears to some that our police force were intimitated, and backed down.

I can't think of any (civilised) capital city in the world where a proper police force would allow a gang of armed and masked wannabee soldiers to parade, let alone discharge weapons in public, and in daylight !

TheChizler

Hedgemeister wrote: »

Yesterday, whether they realise it or not, was a big test for the Gardai...the dipping of Republican toes in the water to see how they would react, and how much support parading masked gunmen would get in our capital city. In the run-up to the 1916 centenary we'll see a lot more of this stuff I reckon, because the Gardai failed their test, and, far from making 'a wise decision' it appears to some that our police force were intimitated, and backed down.

I can't think of any (civilised) capital city in the world where a proper police force would allow a gang of armed and masked wannabee soldiers to parade, let alone discharge weapons in public, and in daylight !

What test did they fail?

Laminations

Agree with that all. Just to make clear though, I don't think their inaction was a result of intimidation, it was a tactical decision, the wrong one in my (completely inexpert observer) opinion that will be seen by some groups as a push of the boundaries and the gardai being afraid to act.

Goro

A few Irish Defence Force Snipers on the nearby shopping centre could have sorted out a few problems for us and they would have been well within their rights to do it.

TheChizler

Goro wrote: »

Terrorists should not be allowed to fire illegal guns in a public place.

A few Irish Defence Force Snipers on the nearby shopping centre could have sorted out a few problems for us and they would have been well within their rights to do it.

Weren't the guns fired at his house, not the graveyard?

Goro

TheChizler wrote: »

Weren't the guns fired at his house, not the graveyard?

My mistake. But the point remains, a few snipers should have been watching this. They knew it was going to happen.

Terrorists are terrorists and when they start firing off guns in public places it's time for the state to start applying lethal force.

Laminations

Goro wrote: »

A few Irish Defence Force Snipers on the nearby shopping centre could have sorted out a few problems for us and they would have been well within their rights to do it.

Eh no. That is too Dredd-esque.