Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

VinLieger

Fenian Army wrote: »

If we did things your way it would benefit the people who you are targeting.

I dont normally agree with stuff you say but yeah @Laminations this is what i mean by extreme

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

You sound like the hacks from the SINDO in the early nineties who slated Hume etc, you view things too black and white with no concern for the consequences (like an old poster, Liam Byrne, you'd like him). If we did things your way it would benefit the people who you are targeting.

Are you equating yourself or Happyman42 with John Hume? He was paramount in bringing about the Anglo-Irish Agreement. It was right to engage in dialogue between the governments of Ireland, Britain SF/IRA and various loyalist groups. There is now a democratically mandated agreement in place. RIRA and the other dissidents have no mandate and are engaged in common criminality that is far removed from the situation in the north and republicanism

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

Of course they should be engaged with, ignoring them and censoring them isnt going to work, nor is interning or imprisoning them.

Saying that people should be talked to doesn't mean you agree with what they have to say ffs

We should not listen to every nut job who threatens to blow us up - especially when the issues have been largely resolved in a peaceful way. So Anders Behring Breivik should be listened to as well? Or does he need to get a gang together?

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

But others where left behind by the GFA, they DIDN'T sign up to it, and are resolutely refusing to recognise it. You can ignore them and hope they go away, but history has shown us that they won't and futile, useless condemnation and suppression wouldn't speed that up either.

How specifically were they left behind? You make a mockery of democracy suggesting that tiny minorities should have some greater say just because they take up weapons.

Laminations

And as for engaging in dialogue, the Gardai made an agreement with these people, and they broke that agreement in spectacular fashion.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

How specifically were they left behind?

Have you any idea of what the conflict was about? Have you read the terms of the GFA and what it enshrines. Or are you one of those who brandish it as some sort of republican surrender?

JustinDee

Happyman42 wrote: »

The origins of the conflict from 1969 are in the fact that a section of Irish people where left behind and left to suffer the discrimination meted out by the Unionist state.

These origins and causes were swiped in the mid-70s by an underground organisation who sought via violence and incredibly (considering their activities) via a distorted form of Marxism, to jump on to a cause ultimately far out of reach.

Ash.J.Williams

THe IRA stopped representing the people they were set up to protect VERY early in their campaign.

Happyman42

JustinDee wrote: »

These origins and causes were swiped in the mid-70s by an underground organisation who sought via violence and incredibly (considering their activities) via a distorted form of Marxism, to jump on to a cause ultimately far out of reach.

Who was at the table when it came to signing the agreement?
You can exclude their role if it suits your agenda, fact is, the underlying reason for the conflict was the British occupation and the discriminatory policies of their appointed governers...the Unionists. The British have admitted that that was wrong and that is why THEY (the British) were at the table, as where the Unionists. They have also admitted that they will withdraw when the majority so wish, because their presence as an occupying force was wrong in the first place.
There are those who believe that they should be driven out, you can ignore their existence if you wish.

SaoriseBiker

Laminations wrote: »

There is an undertone to your posts that suggests you think groups like RIRA should be given a platform, should be 'listened to', that their cause should be vieweed as a legitimate valid concern? It sounds very much like you are a terrorist sympathiser.

Judging by the posts here a few who put more priority on the Guards stopping people from dressing in military clothes than finding the killer of Alan Ryan says it all about their sympathy's and terrorism.

Ash.J.Williams

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Judging by the posts here a few who put more priority on the Guards stopping people from dressing in military clothes than finding the killer of Alan Ryan says it all about their sympathy's and terrorism.

THe Gardai were checking for tax and insurance last night too....the feckers....should be all out trying to crack the alan ryan case.

SaoriseBiker

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

THe Gardai were checking for tax and insurance last night too....the feckers....should be all out trying to crack the alan ryan case.

Whoever said or even inferred " all " Guards should be out cracking the AR case ? I would have thought that it pretty obvious that more effort should be put into finding a murderer than in getting all worked up by people in military clothes. Maybe the next time some reenactment society is dressed in military clothes the army and guards should be rushed to the scene to make possible arrests ?? :rolleyes:

Ash.J.Williams

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Whoever said or even inferred " all " Guards should be out cracking the AR case ? I would have thought that it pretty obvious that more effort should be put into finding a murderer than in getting all worked up by people in military clothes. Maybe the next time some reenactment society is dressed in military clothes the army and guards should be rushed to the scene to make possible arrests ?? :rolleyes:

i'd say the opposite is true, except the bit about reanactments...that was just stupid.

JustinDee

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who was at the table when it came to signing the agreement?
You can exclude their role if it suits your agenda . . . etc . . . etc . . . blah

I haven't excluded anyone's role and I don't have an "agenda". Don't be so bloody sanctimonious. You don't steal a bat then thump someone with it unnecessarily, expecting thanks if you stop. That's what I'm saying.
I know what the root causes of the so-called Troubles are. What the provos et al abused these root causes for, had eff all to do with democracy, freedom and civil rights.
What this Ryan character and his cronies allegedly exist for has eff all to do with ANY of the above whatsoever.

SaoriseBiker

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i'd say the opposite is true, except the bit about reanactments...that was just stupid.

Grand. Next time there is a murder, you can start a thread " Gardai should be out looking for people in military clothes than looking for killer " thread.

SaoriseBiker

JustinDee wrote: »

I haven't excluded anyone's role and I don't have an "agenda". Don't be so bloody sanctimonious. You don't steal a bat then thump someone with it unnecessarily, expecting thanks if you stop. That's what I'm saying.
I know what the root causes of the so-called Troubles are. What the provos et al abused these root causes for, had eff all to do with democracy, freedom and civil rights.
What this Ryan character and his cronies allegedly exist for has eff all to do with ANY of the above whatsoever.

Exactly, " allegedly ". All the allegations against this man are agenda driven by Shatter and the security ' experts ' Sells papers, gets Shatter some headlines.

JustinDee

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Exactly, " allegedly ". All the allegations against this man are agenda driven by Shatter and the security ' experts ' Sells papers, gets Shatter some headlines.

Oh ffs.
"Allegedly" refers to their (this fella Ryan's shower) claims to represent Ireland's best interests while ignoring the will of its inhabitants.
Paranoia about newspapers and an elected Minister's brief doesn't really do your argument much justice.

Happyman42

JustinDee wrote: »

I know what the root causes of the so-called Troubles are. What the provos et al abused these root causes for, had eff all to do with democracy, freedom and civil rights.

So you are saying that those left behind at partition should just have put up with it?
Did they not have the right to the same aspirations as those who wished to see the British leave the south? Those same aspirations now enshrined as legitimate in the GFA?
The root cause of all political violence on this island is the British occupation of part of it.
You can, like generations of partitionists before, claim that those who oppose that are crimminals and thugs etc. etc. but sooner or later, like the Unionists and British and the Irish government you are going to have to find a way to accomoddate them or put up with more needless violence and deaths.

JustinDee

Happyman42 wrote: »

So you are saying that those left behind at partition should just have put up with it?

No, I'm not.
I'm saying that civil rights movement was the basis behind the troubles and not the united Ireland ideal. Sectarianism existed regardless and still does.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Did they not have the right to the same aspirations as those who wished to see the British leave the south? Those same aspirations now enshrined as legitimate in the GFA?
The root cause of all political violence on this island is the British occupation of part of it

Far too subjective and generalistic.
The root cause of all "political violence" is the individual opting for it.

Happyman42 wrote: »

You can, like generations of partitionists before . . .

Again, if you want to be taken seriously, quit the pigeon-holing.

Happyman42

JustinDee wrote: »

No, I'm not.
I'm saying that civil rights movement was the basis behind the troubles and not the united Ireland ideal. Sectarianism existed regardless and still does.

The civil rights movement was a symtom of the underlying problem, the prescence of the British and the discriminatory policies of the Unionists.
It suits the argument put forward by partitionists or those who seek to absolve the British and Unionists of any blame to say that the Civil Rights movement was sidelined or that the IRA jumped on a bandwagon.
That doesn't explain the continued rise of Sinn Fein and the fall of the SDLP though, SF never had any qualms about stating that they sought to cure the island of the 'underlying' cause.


They are doing it all over again, attempting to depict these people as self interested thugs, can't you see that you are being led to the same old trough? It is not as if it is 'ancient' history, a lot of us lived through it.

Far too subjective and generalistic.
The root cause of all "political violence" is the individual opting for it.

Correct. What is your point?

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

They are doing it all over again, attempting to depict these people as self interested thugs, can't you see that you are being led to the same old trough? It is not as if it is 'ancient' history, a lot of us lived through it.

You quite clearly ARE a supporter of RIRA. You defend their actions, equate them with previous republican groups, you think they are being misrepresented, that they fight a just cause and that violence should get them a place at some new negotiating table. How to negotiate on the following I have no clue.

There are those who believe that they (the British) should be driven out, you can ignore their existence if you wish. Today 14:21

There are those that believe black people should live in trees, should we entertain their ridiculous beliefs too?? Should we give them a platform to express that belief too?

The old republican movement was comprised of intelligent people with some ideals and limits. Dissident republicans are mainly unemployable yobs who paint themselves as patriots draped in the flag of a country they contribute nothing to. People engaged in common criminality and feuding.

Laminations

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Exactly, " allegedly ". All the allegations against this man are agenda driven by Shatter and the security ' experts ' Sells papers, gets Shatter some headlines.

Ah right, they buried a saint last weekend, with all the decorum of a pack of hyenas. It is completely ignorant of you to refer to his dissident behaviour as 'allegations'.

Ryan and his brother Anthony (35) were convicted of taking part in a RIRA weapons training camp in Meath in 2001. Alan also served time for possession of a firearm in a separate incident.

But that's all some conspiracy too

Also, the gardai are not ignoring his murder. They have vowed to find his killers so your point on me being more concerned about a subversive paramilitary display rather than the gardai investigating the case is moot. And you should be more worried about whether the gardai will be allowed investigate it properly.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

You quite clearly ARE a supporter of RIRA. You defend their actions, equate them with previous republican groups, you think they are being misrepresented, that they fight a just cause and that violence should get them a place at some new negotiating table. How to negotiate on the following I have no clue.

More reasons why you should never be let near a position of authority.
Go on....find a post where I 'supported' the actions of RIRA or even where I stated they 'fight a just cause'.

There are those that believe black people should live in trees, should we entertain their ridiculous beliefs too?? Should we give them a platform to express that belief too?

The old republican movement was comprised of intelligent people with some ideals and limits. Dissident republicans are mainly unemployable yobs who paint themselves as patriots draped in the flag of a country they contribute nothing to. People engaged in common criminality and feuding.

So you agree that the 'old republicans' had a legitimate claim then?
Or are you just suiting yourself again?
And tell us, do you remember your new found 'idealists' being depicted as 'common crims' and 'unemployable yobs'? Or are you just suiting yourself ....AGAIN. :rolleyes:

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

More reasons why you should never be let near a position of authority.
Go on....find a post where I 'supported' the actions of RIRA or even where I stated they 'fight a just cause'.

You are equating them with older republican groups. You are saying they have a concern worth listening to. You think it wrong that their 'wish to drive out the British' should be ignored.

So you agree that the 'old republicans' had a legitimate claim then?
Or are you just suiting yourself again?
And tell us, do you remember your new found 'idealists' being depicted as 'common crims' and 'unemployable yobs'? Or are you just suiting yourself ....AGAIN. :rolleyes:

By 'old' I mean civil war era. But no I don't remember Adams et al. being depicted as unemployed common criminals and they were (unlike RIRA) always interested in dialogue. I disagree with their methods but recognise the Provos had ideals. RIRA have little that is comparable.

Look at this point you aren't going to change my mind in thinking you are a terrorist sympathiser so I'll just disengage from discussion with you. I sincerely hope you don't feel the need to blow someone up because I refuse to listen to you.

SocSocPol

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Clearly your the one who needs to take a peep at some statistics. Here ya go for the various organizations including the RIRA on both sides of the border http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

(BTW, I'm not a supporter of the RIRA by any means, but I cannot understand the hypocrisy of being more concerned about wearing military uniforms than the shooting of someone dead on the street, a person who obviously was well respected by his community it should be said)

A convicted terrorist and a person the Gardai have said was involved in extortion and other crime.
He was hood, nothing else, not a hero, not a martyr, just another gangland criminal.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

You are equating them with older republican groups. You are saying they have a concern worth listening to. You think it wrong that their 'wish to drive out the British' should be ignored.

Did you find a post where I 'supported' the RIRA yet or not?

By 'old' I mean civil war era. But no I don't remember Adams et al. being depicted as unemployed common criminals and they were (unlike RIRA) always interested in dialogue. I disagree with their methods but recognise the Provos had ideals. RIRA have little that is comparable.

This person engaged in the same kind of name calling but off course was also talking out of the side of their mouth and suiting themselves.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16366413

We'll have a future British Prime Minister standing parliment apologising for her actions too, no doubt.

Look at this point you aren't going to change my mind in thinking you are a terrorist sympathiser so I'll just disengage from discussion with you. I sincerely hope you don't feel the need to blow someone up because I refuse to listen to you.

Run, after you sling the mud, like you always do when you run out of credible answers. Get back to me when you find proof. But of course you don't need proof of anything in your little republic! :rolleyes:

JustinDee

Happyman42 wrote: »

The civil rights movement was a symtom of the underlying problem, the prescence of the British and the discriminatory policies of the Unionists.
It suits the argument put forward by partitionists . . .

That's enough with the pigeon-holing. If you want to keep up 800-years flame lit as an excuse for violent means to an end then I won't entertain this with any further replies. Its done and proven wrong already. Thankfully there is a lot more enlightenment on this island than weak justification for those who undertake bombing campaigns, criminal rackets, assassinations or ruling the communities they allegedly are 'fighting' for with an iron fist.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Correct. What is your point?

You typically attribute motive for participation to anybody else but the protagonist themselves.

Happyman42

JustinDee wrote: »

That's enough with the pigeon-holing. If you want to keep up 800-years flame lit as an excuse for violent means to an end then I won't entertain this with any further replies. Its done and proven wrong already. Thankfully there is a lot more enlightenment on this island than weak justification for those who undertake bombing campaigns, criminal rackets, assassinations or ruling the communities they allegedly are 'fighting' for with an iron fist.

I am not keeping up anything, I am saying it exists and trite, agenda laden condemnation is not the way to deal with it. The majority need to realise that a significant group have been left behind. That group is growing and if it kicks off like it did before then it will be too late to put the lid on again.
Burying your head in the sand and playing the establishment game of labelling these groups as common criminals is dangerous and iresponsible.
These groups are different to what are commonly called 'criminals', they may engage in criminality9name me a subversive group who haven't) but they are about more than that.

You typically attribute motive for participation to anybody else but the protagonist themselves.

You want me to condemn them? Alright,...I condemn them, now what, are they gone?:rolleyes:

Craptacular

Happyman42 wrote: »

These groups are different to what are commonly called 'criminals', they may engage in criminality9name me a subversive group who haven't) but they are about more than that.

So they're a criminal gang with ideals. They're still a criminal gang.

What "more than that" are they about?

Einhard

The foremost responsibility of An Garda is to protect and safeguard the public, There were hundreds of mourners at the funeral, and only a minority would have been involved in what transpired. There was also a heavy media presence, and no doubt, given the location, a lot of passersby. For An Garda to engage in a gun battle in that situation would have been absolutely the wrong thing to do. it would have put the safety and lives of innocent people at risk, and would have been a complete and utter abdication of their responsibility. I wholeheartedly agree with the decision not to intervene. For those who claim that a message was sent, well I imagine that the RIRA members involved won't feel so omnipotent when there's a knock at their door and they're served with an arrest warrant.