Ireland World Cup Bid for 2023 or 2027 - GAA coming on board...

Okay one last time.

If the World Cup was hosted in Wales, and I was from South Africa.

Would I fly to Ireland, stay there for the 3 weeks, and fly across only for games?

The difference between the day trip to Cardiff and the hosting of an entire tournament is massive!

GerM

jm, your posts are, even by your high standards, impressively obstinate and show an unparalleled inability to address the points made to you.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay one last time.

If the World Cup was hosted in Wales, and I was from South Africa.

Would I fly to Ireland, stay there for the 3 weeks, and fly across only for games?

The difference between the day trip to Cardiff and the hosting of an entire tournament is massive!

If you were coming from South Africa for the world cup, you would more than likely come with a guided group and stay for the group stages of the world cup. In between you would probably play some nice golf courses or head for the midlands (or scotland) to do a bit of shooting as well.

Now, how many do you think will come from South Africa. I note that there were more people at the Ireland v Aus (59K) game than there was at the Aus v SA game (35K) in New Zealand. There is a good chance Ireland could cope with putting up all those from SA, NZ & Aus - the ones most likely to spend more than a few days here.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

jm, your posts are, even by your high standards, impressively obstinate and show an unparalleled inability to address the points made to you.

What points have I missed. You just seem to think that people will arrive here and want to book into a hotel beside the stadium (preferably not outside Dublin) that their team is playing in and do nothing but get pissed for 3 weeks.

I disagree with the general thrust of that argument!

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

What points have I missed. You just seem to think that people will arrive here and want to book into a hotel beside the stadium (preferably not outside Dublin) that their team is playing in and do nothing but get pissed for 3 weeks.

I disagree with the general thrust of that argument!

I have never said that nor anything like that anywhere which basically proves my point quite succinctly.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

So don't start a world cup match at 7.45pm.

Considering about half the matches would be on weekdays there isn't much ****ing choice.

OldRio

Will we see masses of Aussies and Saffers and New Zealanders wandering around the West of Ireland unable to find a room for the night?
Lads we have thousands of beds in the country. It may come as a shock to some but life goes on outside Dublin.
We have bars and hotels. Even roads and railways.
Stop being so negative .

tomflynn

GerM wrote: »

They've gone about it in a bizarre way if that was their aim. Large sections areas of the country will see little benefit with the Dublin area and south west gaining massively. The midlands, south east and north west are all totally ignored.

That is because they are tryng to put together a winning bid. The problem is not stadia, the midlands, south east and north west do not have urban centres in close proximity with the following combinations :
1) stadium capacity
2) transport infrastructure capacity
3) accomodation capacity
(Limited potential in Kilkenny given transport links and proximity to Waterford city accomodation).

In general, the only mass events (sport/concerts) that people travel in large numbers via public transport take place in Dublin i.e. travel to/from Heuston/Connelly/Busaras and/or via Dart/Luas/Dublin Bus to Croke Park or Lansdowne Road. That's because that is where the only big transport capacity radiates to/from! With the exception of a handful of special trains to Thurles, Cork or Limerick and a few local hired buses, nearly every Irish person drives to/from matches in their private car.

But can Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Mr local bus and taxi companies not organise mass transportation on match days from accomodation centres?

People reference the Ryder Cup event; Dublin Bus (our main capital city transport provider) provided the transport between park and ride facilities and the K club. However, this was a single location event without other events requiring similar numbers of international travelling fans taking place at the same time. For a formal bid for a world event that wants assured profitability, they need visiting fans. Generally they will not hire their own car and will want to get accomodation as close as possible to group phase match venues. If those stadium towns don't have enough bed capacity within them, there must be enough transport capacity in Ireland to simultaneously organise say 50k seats (bus/rail) on mass transport to and from Dublin (the main access/accomodation point) to say 3 different regional stadium venues for travelling fans where match days coincide, and do so without commandering the national transport fleet (public or private) to the cost of the rest of the functioning economy.

No matter how successful the c. month long tournament might be (for our national pride/ego), in the long run, it would be a hardly perceptible blip on our GDP. It will not be worthwhile buying or building anything unless we need it after the whole thing is over.

OldRio

OldRio wrote: »

Will we see masses of Aussies and Saffers and New Zealanders wandering around the West of Ireland unable to find a room for the night?
Lads we have thousands of beds in the country. It may come as a shock to some but life goes on outside Dublin.
We have bars and hotels. Even roads and railways.
Stop being so negative objective

fyp

The stadiums that have been recommended are in some cases simply unsuitable. There are certainly stadiums around the country that are far more suitable, usually those near a "hub" of sorts.

Galway, Limerick, Cork, Belfast, Dublin, 'Waterford & Kilkenny' are probably all well able to host travelling guests.

However, look at distances to each of the proposed stadiums are from these centres.

Look at the surrounding areas of the stadiums. Look at the transfer links. Look at the distance to hotels, look at the distance to built up areas able to host "team centres", that fans can gather at and commute together.

It's not a case of "sure that pitch is grand, get them in". There's far far far more that needs to be considered in order to make the bid both attractive to the IRB, but also to the people who will come.

OldRio

I do know how the bid system works.
Ahhhh bollocks to it
Whats the point?

jm08

tomflynn wrote: »

In general, the only mass events (sport/concerts) that people travel in large numbers via public transport take place in Dublin i.e. travel to/from Heuston/Connelly/Busaras and/or via Dart/Luas/Dublin Bus to Croke Park or Lansdowne Road. That's because that is where the only big transport capacity radiates to/from! With the exception of a handful of special trains to Thurles, Cork or Limerick and a few local hired buses, nearly every Irish person drives to/from matches in their private car.

Wexford to host 2012 National Ploughing Championships

about 10 miles I think outside New Ross.

"One of the best Showcases for Agriculture & Rural Industry in Western Europe the National Ploughing has an average attendance of 180,000 visitors and over 1,000 exhibitors. An 80 acre Trade Arena featuring Agricultural Services and Machinery, Livestock, the Motor Trade, Bio Energy, Forestry, Home and Garden, Rural Enterprise and much more."

If you look at their website they have a facility for the general public to offer accommodation.

ArmaniJeanss

The bid 'voting' system is probably of some interest.

According to wiki....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Rugby_Board#Governance
...the 28 members of the IRB inner council are the ones who make the final decision. And that council is permanently composed of two delegates from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France, England, SA, NZ and Aus. Then Italy, Argentina, Canada and Japan have one permanent delegate each, and 6 more from the developing countries.

So in order to win the bid you need 15 votes of this 28.

Call in a few favours, let Scotland and Wales host their own games and a quarter final each, and I reckon we could swing the 15 votes fairly easily, even with a likely weaker bid than our rivals.

ArmaniJeanss

jm08 wrote: »

Wexford to host 2012 National Ploughing Championships

about 10 miles I think outside New Ross.

"One of the best Showcases for Agriculture & Rural Industry in Western Europe the National Ploughing has an average attendance of 180,000 visitors and over 1,000 exhibitors. An 80 acre Trade Arena featuring Agricultural Services and Machinery, Livestock, the Motor Trade, Bio Energy, Forestry, Home and Garden, Rural Enterprise and much more."

If you look at their website they have a facility for the general public to offer accommodation.

You are having a fcuking laugh.

jm08

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You are having a fcuking laugh.

No, I'd never make a laugh of anyone who comes clean about "looking for an important part of his/her brain ... ';)

tomflynn

jm08 wrote: »

Wexford to host 2012 National Ploughing Championships

about 10 miles I think outside New Ross.

"One of the best Showcases for Agriculture & Rural Industry in Western Europe the National Ploughing has an average attendance of 180,000 visitors and over 1,000 exhibitors. An 80 acre Trade Arena featuring Agricultural Services and Machinery, Livestock, the Motor Trade, Bio Energy, Forestry, Home and Garden, Rural Enterprise and much more."

If you look at their website they have a facility for the general public to offer accommodation.

I said that In general, the only mass events (sport/concerts) that people travel in large numbers via public transport take place in Dublin.

There are other occasional mass events outside of Dublin. In general most do not travel there by public transport in large numbers. There are unlikely to be large numbers of travelling fans from abroad travelling to New Ross, undoubtedly RTE will interview some French or German tourist who happens upon the venue, but IN GENERAL ATTENDEES WILL BE IRISH WHO DRIVE THERE, and maybe a half dozen of our English or Welsh cousins who get the CAR FERRY over.

For match comparison purposes, sounds like sell-out match in Thurles on three consecutive days. A couple of special trains and buses. Most drive there, enjoy the match, have a bite to eat, then drive home.

PS I have no doubt whatsoever that the Ploughing Championships will be a massive success and that our provincial towns (as opposed to our cities) can host big successful events. All I am saying is that the country does not have the public transport capcity to facilitate a number of them simultaneously hosting group phases matches in a rugby world cup. No offence, just like Ireland could never host a soccer world cup.

jm08

tomflynn wrote: »

I said that In general, the only mass events (sport/concerts) that people travel in large numbers via public transport take place in Dublin.

There are other occasional mass events outside of Dublin. In general most do not travel there by public transport in large numbers. There are unlikely to be large numbers of travelling fans from abroad travelling to New Ross, undoubtedly RTE will interview some French or German tourist who happens upon the venue, but IN GENERAL ATTENDEES WILL BE IRISH WHO DRIVE THERE, and maybe a half dozen of our English or Welsh cousins who get the CAR FERRY over.

For match comparison purposes, sounds like sell-out match in Thurles on three consecutive days. A couple of special trains and buses. Most drive there, enjoy the match, have a bite to eat, then drive home.

PS I have no doubt whatsoever that the Ploughing Championships will be a massive success and that our provincial towns (as opposed to our cities) can host big successful events. All I am saying is that the country does not have the public transport capcity to facilitate a number of them simultaneously hosting group phases matches in a rugby world cup. No offence, just like Ireland could never host a soccer world cup.

All I'm pointing out is that massive events in very rural areas are organised every year, so the expertise is there to get people in and out. Whats wrong with using buses? I know that a couple of years ago Glendalough were getting 70 tour buses a day during the summer period and that's a tiny village with very poor roads going into it.

All the world cup will do is extend the summer tourist season a bit longer. A fleet of Irish buses were used in the London Olympics - no reason why UK buses/car hire companies couldn't also be involved.

[Jackass]

Deleted User wrote: »

It is in it's hole.

Consider what happens to the people coming to see the game in Waterford on a Friday evening if you have 40k people in Dublin, 28k in Limerick for a game on a Saturday, and 22k people in Galway and 28,500 in Belfast for a game on the Sunday.

You can't just ship people around the country to the available beds. They need to be resource-able. People wont be happy at the idea of going to a game that finishes at 8pm, and spending 2.5 hours driving (lets be fair, trying to leave a game adds an hour) a rental car to get to Mullingar to check into their B&B. Not a pint to be had, unfamiliar roads, the expense of renting a car, dislocation from other supporters etc.

Look at the success of Poznan as an Irish "base" this summer. You need to repeat those kind of scenes in order to keep the atmosphere pumping, and the World Cup a viable option for overseas visitors.

The stadiums need to be close to hubs that can support varied groups of peoples. Stadiums near Hotels, near Bars, near transport and infrastructure. I think that these stadiums and features are potentially available to us with some work, but to say that the current situation is tenable and the issues above are irrelevant is simple wrong.

But you're talking about it as though someone will be going to a match in Kerry and then leaving to get back to their hotel in Belfast and up in the morning for the next game in Galway...

Put it this way, New Zealand world cup had host cities are virtually identical in size to various regions of Ireland, but with massive, massive comparitive travel distances in NZ compared to Ireland. Such as Auckland (same size as Dublin, 1.5m population), Wellington (a bit bigger than Belfast, 350k pop), Dunedin (around the same size as Cork, 125k pop), Hamiltion ( slightly bigger than Galway, 120k pop), Rotura (around the same size as Limerick, 70k pop), Nelson City (around same size as Drogheda, 40k pop), New Plymoth (around the same size as Waterford, 60k pop), Invercargill (slightly bigger than Dundalk, 35k pop), Whangaeri (slightly bigger than Bray & Wicklow, 50k pop), Napier (50k, same size as Naas / Newbridge area).

Now most of those Irish regions above are either hosting games, or are a very short commute (30 mins) from somewhere that is. It's hardly like people will have to leave straight after the game and go to bed early, these are arranged tours, if you are at a game in Belfast and staying in Dundalk, there will be a coach hire, usually arranged through a travel agent (as loads of people did in NZ as there's so much travel, not required in Ireland) and can go on the lash and get on their bus at 2am for the short drive to their residence.

Games and accommodation in the same regions, and group games being held in the same regions, means that you can get your teams group games all within less than an hour of where you're staying, with coach and train transport, stay there for 3 weeks, then in the knockouts relocate, and remember, not every fan will be in Ireland for the duration of the world cup, there's only about one third of tourists who attend the world cup in the country at any one time.

You're completely misunderstanding the whole dynamics of the situation. It's incredibly doable. I don't think the bid would be so well received, backed by the Government, if there was any concern about our ability to host it what so ever.

GerM

tomflynn wrote: »

That is because they are tryng to put together a winning bid. The problem is not stadia, the midlands, south east and north west do not have urban centres in close proximity with the following combinations :
1) stadium capacity
2) transport infrastructure capacity
3) accomodation capacity
(Limited potential in Kilkenny given transport links and proximity to Waterford city accomodation).

I agree entirely, Tom. It was in response to the organisers supposedly selecting the locations based on spreading them geographically throughout the country though which is clearly untrue with 8 stadia potentially coming from Dublin and the south-west region and the two in NI both being in Belfast.

I believe there were other options. There's a 42k all seater stadium in Castlebar which is one of the best GAA grounds in the country. It's fully floodlit already for night matches. The transport links in Castlebar are far better than Killarney. It is on the main N5 road, has direct trains to Dublin and has an international airport about 35 minutes away. The one area where Killarney beats it is accommodation but no place comes close to Killarney in the country for accommodation relative to its size. It does have a number of large hotels and has a number more just down the road in Westport with B&Bs all over the place. All in all, I would have thought that the location would score higher on the aforementioned criteria and brought investment to another area of the country.

That's just one example. Derry, for instance, would be a good spot for smaller games with a decent population, loads of hotels in Donegal and an international airport there too.

[Jackass]

jacothelad wrote: »

"ranging between 90 minutes to 2 and a half hours from the capital." Cork is more than 2 and a half hours from Belfast...:D

My apologies! I just mean as the biggest city / with the bigger venues, every where is easily accessible from Dublin (with the most accommodation) - ONE of the capitals!

jm08

GerM wrote: »

I agree entirely, Tom. It was in response to the organisers supposedly selecting the locations based on spreading them geographically throughout the country though which is clearly untrue with 8 stadia potentially coming from Dublin and the south-west region and the two in NI both being in Belfast.

I believe there were other options. There's a 42k all seater stadium in Castlebar which is one of the best GAA grounds in the country. It's fully floodlit already for night matches. The transport links in Castlebar are far better than Killarney. It is on the main N5 road, has direct trains to Dublin and has an international airport about 35 minutes away. The one area where Killarney beats it is accommodation but no place comes close to Killarney in the country for accommodation relative to its size. It does have a number of large hotels and has a number more just down the road in Westport with B&Bs all over the place. All in all, I would have thought that the location would score higher on the aforementioned criteria and brought investment to another area of the country.

That's just one example. Derry, for instance, would be a good spot for smaller games with a decent population, loads of hotels in Donegal and an international airport there too.

Castlebar is too close to Galway (with the bigger population) so it would have been a choice between them, not Castlebar v. Killarney.

Pearse stadium was refurbished a couple of years ago and they had an Aussie Rules game there. According to their website: "The new Stadium which was completed in May 2003 has a capacity of 34,000 and includes a 8,000 seater stand, 4 spacious dressing rooms, two warm-up areas, a medical room and state of the art press rooms."

[Jackass]

[Jackass] wrote: »

But you're talking about it as though someone will be going to a match in Kerry and then leaving to get back to their hotel in Belfast and up in the morning for the next game in Galway...

No, I'm talking as someone with a basic understanding of logistics, and the logistics of moving, housing and feeding/entertaining 20,000 'Non-Resident' people isn't as simplistic as you have made it out to be. I agree with most of what tomflynn has posted, except that I don't agree that we can't host it.

[Jackass] wrote: »

You're completely misunderstanding the whole dynamics of the situation. It's incredibly doable. I don't think the bid would be so well received, backed by the Government, if there was any concern about our ability to host it what so ever.

I'm not arguing at all that we can't host it. I'm stating that the stadiums suggested are simply the wrong ones. It's not just a case of finding a stadium that has X capacity and saying "thats grand yeah, add it to the list".

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

Castlebar is too close to Galway (with the bigger population) so it would have been a choice between them, not Castlebar v. Killarney.

Which would make sense if it wasn't the same distance that it is from Killarney to Cork.

tomflynn

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with most of what tomflynn has posted, except that I don't agree that we can't host it.

I don't know if we'd win the bid, but I think we could, by 2023, potentially host it.

Apologies, if my ramble left you confused!

I meant that the country does not have the public transport capacity to facilitate a number of provincial towns (as opposed to cities) simultaneously hosting group phase matches in a rugby world cup i.e. we have to choose cities with proven transport links and bed accommodation that could simultaneously host it, rather than dismantling the day-to-day regional transport system to enable a number of provincial towns 'have its day in the sun' while the rest who need the bus to get to work take the day off! (Even if it might be a nice thing; I mean I'd love Aughrim to host a couple of rugby world cup matches. But even if if MR RICH was willing to fully fund its upgrade to a 30k all-seater with adjoining 1000 bed hotel,....it still wouldn't be chosen 'cos neither the town or the roads could handle the numbers even if the stadium could, there is no bus so Bus Eireann would have to redirect its Leinster fleet to facilitate the 10k travelling Italian and USA fans....might be a few more Americans interested by 2023, they could also visit their famine origins http://www.irishcentral.com/news/-The-Paul-Ryan-American-dream----fleeing-famine-in-Ireland-to-Vice-Presidential-ticket--166091386.html).

We could host it if we can identify:
1. suitable stadia with ancillary facilities and amenities
2. accommodation
3. transport capacity sufficient to link 1 and 2.
4. We show them we have the money to improve 1., 2., and 3. where there is any uncertainty about that.
But we should only build what we will need, and not any white elephant motorways or stadium capacity upgrades.

All we can guarantee is what would probably happen anyway (irrespective of a successful bid):

• safety and comfort in (potentially lower capacity GAA) stadiums.
• a few strategic bypasses and road realignments improving safety and removing bottleknecks with a couple of missing motorway links
• faster inter-city train speeds

I think we have the accommodation required.

Based on what appears to be the existing threshold for rugby world cup bids I think we could host it but, just like I don't think Ireland could ever host the soccer world cup, I think don't think rural town Ireland can host group phase matches of the rugby world cup. That does put a question mark over Killarney vis a vis the likes of Castlebar or Kilkenny. Close call but Kerry has all the glossy tourism brochures......In any event, Russia is also bidding, is loaded with oil money, has lots of cities with stadiums and accommodation linked by railway lines and motorways etc...But would Europeans travel to make it a profitable tournament?

jm08

GerM wrote: »

Which would make sense if it wasn't the same distance that it is from Killarney to Cork.

Connacht (pop. 0.5m) has not got the local population to support two venues, unlike Cork whose pop. is 0.5m on its own.

tomflynn wrote: »

In any event, Russia is also bidding, is loaded with oil money, has lots of cities with stadiums and accommodation linked by railway lines and motorways etc...But would Europeans travel to make it a profitable tournament?

The climate in Russia is going to be against it. I've been in Moscow in mid October and it would be dangerous to play rugby there then. The tournament would have to be finished by the end of September at the latest or else change it to a spring tournament.

Aidric

A lot of people missing the point of a host city on this thread, in a big way.

marko_polo1234

Please God this event comes to Ireland, would provide a good few weeks of entertainment and banter all around Ireland !

Sindri

I think a big advantage that we have is that people would actually come to Ireland. I don't see a massive amount of Europeans or supporters from the 6 Nations countries travelling to Japan or Russia. To Italy yes but not Russia. Also most of the rugby in America is traditionally played in the North-East region by Irish American populations. I think many of them would come, it's only a 6 hour flight. Of course it would all depend on the marketing. Bord Fáilte may yet again paint us as a quaint little country, where everyone lives a rural life and a great place for fishing, a place full of the 'craic', but if we did market it as a massive party, a place to have the 'craic', and build that atmosphere, I think our reputation may precede us and plenty of people will come and be willing to travel.

desertcircus

I'm still astonished that this is being talked about seriously. We don't have the stadia, we won't have the stadia, and we bloody well shouldn't have the stadia. Assuming that the four knockout venues are Croke, Lansdowne, the Gaelic Grounds and Casement Park, we get a total capacity for knockout games of roughly 370,000. England's knockout games are going to have a ballpark capacity of 570,000, which at a hundred quid a ticket means a difference in ticket income of twenty million euro. Japan are smaller, but not that close - they're going to have a capacity of about 470,000. Scotland, if for some insane reason they decided to bid to host, would have 480,000 capacity for knockouts. These are vast differences, enough to fund professional national sides for multiple developing rugby countries.

Not to mention the elephant in the room: we're in the middle of the worst depression in over a century. A minister who signs off on funds to increase the capacity of a stadium for the sake of three games in 2023 at the expense of essential social welfare funds being cut in 2012 should be fired out of a cannon; it's ridiculous, idiotic, crass, shameful, stupid and morally repugnant. Talking about government funding for something like this while children with special needs are being told their schools can't afford to keep on their specialist assistants is simply appalling. Spending money on this because you don't believe welfare spending is necessary is one thing; spending money on this while you're being forced to cut welfare spending by the diktats of the troika is another thing altogether.

.ak

jm08

desertcircus wrote: »

I'm still astonished that this is being talked about seriously. We don't have the stadia, we won't have the stadia, and we bloody well shouldn't have the stadia. Assuming that the four knockout venues are Croke, Lansdowne, the Gaelic Grounds and Casement Park, we get a total capacity for knockout games of roughly 370,000. England's knockout games are going to have a ballpark capacity of 570,000, which at a hundred quid a ticket means a difference in ticket income of twenty million euro. Japan are smaller, but not that close - they're going to have a capacity of about 470,000. Scotland, if for some insane reason they decided to bid to host, would have 480,000 capacity for knockouts. These are vast differences, enough to fund professional national sides for multiple developing rugby countries.

Not to mention the elephant in the room: we're in the middle of the worst depression in over a century. A minister who signs off on funds to increase the capacity of a stadium for the sake of three games in 2023 at the expense of essential social welfare funds being cut in 2012 should be fired out of a cannon; it's ridiculous, idiotic, crass, shameful, stupid and morally repugnant. Talking about government funding for something like this while children with special needs are being told their schools can't afford to keep on their specialist assistants is simply appalling. Spending money on this because you don't believe welfare spending is necessary is one thing; spending money on this while you're being forced to cut welfare spending by the diktats of the troika is another thing altogether.

It doesn't work like that. The IRB licences a rugby union (IRFU in this instance) to host the world cup. The host rugby union pays a fee to the IRB (around €100m) which is under written by the Irish Gov. The IRB has minimum standards for the size of stadia (60K for the final) and thats about it. Its up to the IRFU/Irish Gov. to make up the fee they paid by selling tickets to games. It cost the NZRU/NZ Gov. about €10m. The IRB also owns the tv rights.

The English RU will probably make a packet on their world cup.