Rally for The Quinn-were you there?

evolving_doors

Lads the guy didn't just try and buy a few shares in a bank,

He tried to buy A QUARTER of a whole bloody bank...

With the Banks money...

What's that got to do with creating bloody jobs...Sean Quinn the new Fianna Fail.. not only p*ss down your back... but tell you it's raining while their doing it..

fasttalkerchat

woodoo wrote: »

Let it all go to court where the truth can all come out. There is something fishy going on. Bring it to the courts and they can try and find out.

Can't see anything coming out in court. Also what the gov and anglo did wasn't illegal so not much can be done in court.

Happyman42

stepbar wrote: »

An empire apparently "worth" €4.3 billion (questionable - what is a cement silo worth for example???) and had debts of €4.1billion combined (€2.3 billion CFD related and held personally by the family and secured on the shares in the Quinn Group; €500 mill to the International Property Group personally borrowed by the family and €1.3 billion to the Quinn Group which was believed to be secured on assets (by way on Guarantees) within the Group Structure).

And "the plan" - namawinelake.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/quinnpublicmeeting.pdf

The Quinn Family put together a proposal which required an additional €650 mill cash injection into the Insurance company to bring same up to the solvency level required by the Financial Regulator. So this would have brought the combined Quinn debt to €4.75bil. Within same plan there is no mention of any interest to be paid on the debt - effectively the Quinn Family wanted a 7 year interest free loan from Anglo.

According to the slides in the PDF above, Quinn Insurance would have returned a total of €600 mil to Anglo (page 20) ..... Anglo was asked to input €650 mil.... Negative return already. A figure of €765 mil was mentioned on Page 22 - At odds with Page 20.

According to the same slides, the remainder of the Quinn Group (ex property in the International Property Group) was predicted to have an EBITDA of c€746 mil between 2010 and 2014 or c186.5 mil per annum. Lets be generous and multiple €746 mil x 2 to "roughly" account for EBITDA over a 7 yr period = €1,492 mil (would leave a surplus of €192mil in the Quinn Group for distribution against Anglo debt). Still not enough to repay the Anglo debt. Lets add in the rental income from the International Property Group - reported at $35mil per annum. Over 7 years same would still not gross enough to repay the entire debt.

In short the "plan" depended on

1. the trade sale of Quinn Insurance (at a projected value in 7 years time),
2. no interest on debt for 7 years,
3. a further cash injection of €650 mil which would have, initially brought up the solvency ratio to the level required but seen same deteriorate over 7 years and would have produced a negative return on the funds invested.

Lets also remember that EBITDA for the manufacturing division came to €104 mil in 2009 - http://www.quinn-group.com/latest/latestdetail.cfm/news/74/Press_Release_27_May_2011.htm.

In short, the plan would NOT have grossed enough hard cash to repay the debt in 7 years and depended on an event that may / may not happen in 7 years time.

You are 3 words into that and you are using words like 'apparently' and 'questionable'.
We need the whole shebang forensically tested in a court of law.
Again, the press, government and banks of this country are not to be trusted. They have long since relinquished the right to that trust. Court!

thebaz

Happyman42 wrote: »

We need the whole shebang forensically tested in a court of law.
Again, the press, government and banks of this country are not to be trusted. They have long since relinquished the right to that trust. Court!

Are judges the only people left in ireland to be trusted ? .. following recent decisions my trust in the judiciary is ropey to say the least ... I think I'm in agreement with the Quinns on this.

Judges are human being's, with failings too - the last thing we need is more unending costly tribunals , that take years to ascertain the obvious (in legal parlance)

Il Trap

brandon_flowers wrote: »

The Quinn's were masters at the "You have nothing, we'll provide you with jobs. In turn you must think we are great no matter what end arrives" It takes a particularly ruthless type of person to play that character and Sean Quinn is that. He is a tight as a duck's arse. He sponsored ***K all from what I ever saw and rarely parted with any of his money unless it was completely for his own gain. Most Irish business people tend not to ***k around with mass amounts of Irish employees like that. (McManus, Magnier, O'Leary, Desmond etc)

You must remember that for a lot of these people Quinn was all they had and they are not well educated or well read enough to know any better. It is easy for us to judge these people. However the ones who bemuse me are the educated ones like O'Rourke and Harte who should know better.

Quinn was a ruthless business man and is now a ruthless criminal. He lost the run of himself completely and this "Sure I'm only a lorry driver from Derrylin" bullcrap is just sickening now. He knew exactly what he was doing and he made a balls of it.

Sure indeed he's just a simple man at heart, looking for a quiet life! A quote from Quinn in the Sunday Indo last month read, 'I love nothing more than to put on the wellies and be dodging around the fields looking at cattle!'

Aye Seánie, aye! :rolleyes:

Catari Jaguar

This country has taught me that the more debt you have the wealthier you are, that being BILLIONS in debt is pretty much grand and you'll most likely get a slap on the wrist, your rich cronies will cover your ass and that spineless Irish fekn eejits will clean up after you. Moreso if you love the Gaah.

I've been doing it all wrong; studying, working hard, saving up, paying taxes, not following GAA... dammit.

Snowie

Vicxas wrote: »

What the FCUK is wrong with Ireland.

ahh sure itle be grand? there decent people

John Doe1

I'd expect this sort of thing leitrim but cavan, i am disappointed:p

Yakult

Boycott Cavan!





LOL

cournioni

Show Time wrote: »

i always suspected Cavan folks were a bit slow.

You're a bit slow if that is the best reply you can come up with.

stepbar

Happyman42 wrote: »

stepbar wrote: »

An empire apparently "worth" €4.3 billion (questionable - what is a cement silo worth for example???) and had debts of €4.1billion combined (€2.3 billion CFD related and held personally by the family and secured on the shares in the Quinn Group; €500 mill to the International Property Group personally borrowed by the family and €1.3 billion to the Quinn Group which was believed to be secured on assets (by way on Guarantees) within the Group Structure).

And "the plan" - namawinelake.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/quinnpublicmeeting.pdf

The Quinn Family put together a proposal which required an additional €650 mill cash injection into the Insurance company to bring same up to the solvency level required by the Financial Regulator. So this would have brought the combined Quinn debt to €4.75bil. Within same plan there is no mention of any interest to be paid on the debt - effectively the Quinn Family wanted a 7 year interest free loan from Anglo.

According to the slides in the PDF above, Quinn Insurance would have returned a total of €600 mil to Anglo (page 20) ..... Anglo was asked to input €650 mil.... Negative return already. A figure of €765 mil was mentioned on Page 22 - At odds with Page 20.

According to the same slides, the remainder of the Quinn Group (ex property in the International Property Group) was predicted to have an EBITDA of c€746 mil between 2010 and 2014 or c186.5 mil per annum. Lets be generous and multiple €746 mil x 2 to "roughly" account for EBITDA over a 7 yr period = €1,492 mil (would leave a surplus of €192mil in the Quinn Group for distribution against Anglo debt). Still not enough to repay the Anglo debt. Lets add in the rental income from the International Property Group - reported at $35mil per annum. Over 7 years same would still not gross enough to repay the entire debt.

In short the "plan" depended on

1. the trade sale of Quinn Insurance (at a projected value in 7 years time),
2. no interest on debt for 7 years,
3. a further cash injection of €650 mil which would have, initially brought up the solvency ratio to the level required but seen same deteriorate over 7 years and would have produced a negative return on the funds invested.

Lets also remember that EBITDA for the manufacturing division came to €104 mil in 2009 - http://www.quinn-group.com/latest/latestdetail.cfm/news/74/Press_Release_27_May_2011.htm.

In short, the plan would NOT have grossed enough hard cash to repay the debt in 7 years and depended on an event that may / may not happen in 7 years time.

You are 3 words into that and you are using words like 'apparently' and 'questionable'.
We need the whole shebang forensically tested in a court of law.
Again, the press, government and banks of this country are not to be trusted. They have long since relinquished the right to that trust. Court!

So you're just going to ignore the rest eh? Both words were used in conjunction with the percieved worth of the company. For the record, I find it hard to believe that the company was worth €4.3bil (based on the lack of profits to support this valuation).

ferike1

Fintan O'Toole chiming in with his opinion!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html?via=mr

Dyr

Yakult wrote: »

Boycott Cavan!





LOL

I thought we had been doing that for centuries

Tom Joad

ferike1 wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole chiming in with his opinion!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html?via=mr

Puts into perspective the kind of money the kind of money this guy is costing us and yet still he is getting plenty of support - the mind boggles..

Happyman42

stepbar wrote: »

So you're just going to ignore the rest eh? Both words were used in conjunction with the percieved worth of the company. For the record, I find it hard to believe that the company was worth €4.3bil (based on the lack of profits to support this valuation).

Yes, I said the claims and counter claims have to be tested forensically in a court of law. What I find interesting is that Quinn freely admits that he did something wrong but he is not carrying the whole can. That seems to be making some uncomfortable. We need to know the entire story of what went on. But of course we won't get that, because the story has been hijacked.

As regards the money being ferreted away, if I believed my business (that I had built over 40 years) was being taken away illegally and my right to defend myself in a court was being denied, I would do the exact same. And I would shoot the moral high grounders who arrived at my 'castle' to try and take it away from me.
Before you destroy this man and family call for the right thing first, fully uncover what went on here and then you are entitled to the high ground and I will join you.

Biggins

Happyman42 wrote: »

Until we know what exactly went on in Anglo and who was involved I think it's wrong to completely damm this family. Don't forget Anglo screwed the whole country. Sort out and more to the point tell US what happened there first then start jailing people responsible.

And that is not to say Quinn was right or wrong.

What complete blindness!

We ACTUALLY DO KNOW part of what went on and those known parts have been produced in court in documentation form be it paper or digital, etc.

The man closed down companies, fired people (you know - ones that also have families to feed, bills to pay including mortgages, etc) and with equipment also, asset stripped the companies so that he and his mob could launder the money right out of the country!

Fcuking Anglo didn't force him to do this. Get over fcuking Anglo (they have their own mess and some people are trying to muddy the waters with the two or are stupidly incapable of separating the two!) - He did this ALL on his own with the help of his son and son's in law.

The courts of Ireland damn his family with the already produced evidence all ready!

Jeasus H christ - even Quinn's wife lied and tried to pull a fast one on the courts!

We ACTUALLY DO KNOW part of what they were up to!
They were (so far discovered and showed in court)that they used nearly every part of their family to make many millions vanish abroad.

..And people want to defend this?

Fcuking crazy!

---

Then there is this schite:

As regards the money being ferreted away, if I believed my business (that I had built over 40 years) was being taken away illegally...

The money the bank and courts was after, WAS NOT taken away illegally.
They followed the legal process down to dotting the "I" on the court LEGAL applications to do so - and if the Quinns had a problem with that then they should have ALSO used the law to fight their case instead of cowardly in with one person, running and hiding across a border before bold as brass, showing up at a sports game!

If the Quinns had a problem, they should have worked with the courts - not do the exact opposite and eventually be caught doing it!

Before you destroy this man and family call for the right thing first...

The people of Ireland that is left with a one billion bill and those he made unemployed are calling for him, his sons and the escape artist to come back to court and explain where he has further stashed the money away!

Its fcuking unbelievable that people here are nearly making him out for sainthood and/or trying to say he's just a victim of Anglo.

* He wanted to buy bloody Anglo!
* No one forced him to go buy Anglo!
* HE broke the rules to buy Anglo!
* NO ONE forced him to break the rules to try buy Anglo!
...There is much more!

Some people are just bloody unbelievable blind!

Happyman42

Biggins wrote: »

What complete blindness!

We ACTUALLY DO KNOW part of what went on and those known parts have been produced in court in documentation form be it paper or digital, etc.

The man closed down companies, fired people (you know - ones that also have families to feed, bills to pay including mortgages, etc) and with equipment also, asset stripped the companies so that he and his mob could launder the money right out of the country!

Fcuking Anglo didn't force him to do this. Get over fcuking Anglo (they have their own mess and some people are trying to muddy the waters with the two or are stupidly incapable of separating the two!) - He did this ALL on his own with the help of his son and son's in law.

The courts of Ireland damn his family with the already produced evidence all ready!

Jeasus H christ - even Quinn's wife lied and tried to pull a fast one on the courts!

We ACTUALLY DO KNOW part of what they were up to!
They were (so far discovered and showed in court)that they used nearly every part of their family to make many millions vanish abroad.

..And people want to defend this?

Fcuking crazy!

---

Then there is this schite:



The money the bank and courts was after, WAS NOT taken away illegally.
They followed the legal process down to dotting the "I" on the court LEGAL applications to do so - and if the Quinns had a problem with that then they should have ALSO used the law to fight their case instead of cowardly in with one person, running and hiding across a border before bold as brass, showing up at a sports game!

If the Quinns had a problem, they should have worked with the courts - not do the exact opposite and eventually be caught doing it!



The people of Ireland that is left with a one billion bill and those he made unemployed are calling for him, his sons and the escape artist to come back to court and explain where he has further stashed the money away!

Its fcuking unbelievable that people here are nearly making him out for sainthood and/or trying to say he's just a victim of Anglo.

* He wanted to buy bloody Anglo!
* No one forced him to go buy Anglo!
* HE broke the rules to buy Anglo!
* NO ONE forced him to break the rules to try buy Anglo!
...There is much more!

Some people are just bloody unbelievable blind!

Could you quantify how much WE DON'T KNOW and are not being allowed TO KNOW?
Because the reason those people are on the streets in support of Quinn is that they KNOW a man who has never welched on a debt, closed a company, **** from a height on his community, feathered his own nest with yachts and the trappings of excessive wealth, who never had a problem investing in the community and therefore them, UNTIL he got involved with Anglo.
Whereas the moral high grounders on here are depicting his supporters as 'boggers', 'gombeen men' and 'uneducated peasants' I see them as citizens of this ****ed up state attempting to support somebody who supported them, I see them as citizens with a RIGHT TO KNOW, not just PART of the story, but the WHOLE GLORIOUS STORY from begining to sorry end. Quinn has said some of his actions where wrong, he had no hesitation in resigning from Quinn Insurance for instance, and he has had and didn't have any hesitation, admitting that he owed money to a bank. Will we see the other players do the same. Judging by the twisted moral logic on display here, I don't think so?

Heroditas

Biggins wrote: »

Some people are just bloody unbelievable blind!

I believe the expression is willful ignorance.

SocSocPol

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you quantify how much WE DON'T KNOW and are not being allowed TO KNOW?
Because the reason those people are on the streets in support of Quinn is that they KNOW a man who has never welched on a debt, closed a company, **** from a height on his community, feathered his own nest with yachts and the trappings of excessive wealth, who never had a problem investing in the community and therefore them, UNTIL he got involved with Anglo.
Whereas the moral high grounders on here are depicting his supporters as 'boggers', 'gombeen men' and 'uneducated peasants' I see them as citizens of this ****ed up state attempting to support somebody who supported them, I see them as citizens with a RIGHT TO KNOW, not just PART of the story, but the WHOLE GLORIOUS STORY from begining to sorry end. Quinn has said some of his actions where wrong, he had no hesitation in resigning from Quinn Insurance for instance, and he has had and didn't have any hesitation, admitting that he owed money to a bank. Will we see the other players do the same. Judging by the twisted moral logic on display here, I don't think so?

Typical!
Quinn and his family are thieves, fraudsters and have helped wreak havoc on this state.
He publicly admits breaking High Court orders and says he would do it again, and we still get posters defending him and his ilk. Unreal:mad:

Happyman42

Heroditas wrote: »

I believe the expression is willful ignorance.

Wilful ignorance of what exactly?

theholyghost

In response to everyone who's popping up with "he made jobs in the area, jobs in an area where there were no jobs" could somebody work out how many jobs he has cost us nationally?

How much is the exchequer in the hole for?

How much is it costing in legal fees to pursue these people for hiding their assets and depriving the state? How much is it costing to jail these people for their contempt?

If people want to support Quinn they should be forbidden from complaining about job or social welfare cuts, unemployment, bondholders etc. etc.

Happyman42

SocSocPol wrote: »

Typical!
Quinn and his family are thieves, fraudsters and have helped wreak havoc on this state.
He publicly admits breaking High Court orders and says he would do it again, and we still get posters defending him and his ilk. Unreal:mad:

Where did I defend him? I defended his right to be heard, for the case against him to be heard, IN IT'S ENTIREITY. Anybody has a right to break a High Court order if they believe they are right. If Quinn was a fraudster and thief, why didn't he just cut and run, he had, after all the loot?
He didn't run, his son didn't run, we all know they are in comtempt and are prepared to go to jail. They aren't going away and they are prepared to fight their case, I defend that right and that is making some very uncomfortable.
The government and state institutions are not allowing the full facts of this case to see the light of a court and some here are defending that, after all that has gone on in this country......typical, unreal, blah, blah! :mad:

Show Time

cournioni wrote: »

You're a bit slow if that is the best reply you can come up with.

Is a personal insults the best you can come up with???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


They are out in support of a family who have fcuked this country so bad that the kids will be leaving for the next twenty years to find work.


So ya they would be slow anywhere in Ireland to support the Quinns.

Heroditas

Happyman42 wrote: »

Wilful ignorance of what exactly?

The fact that he broke the law and was found guilty by a court yet people still defend him to the hilt and make him out to be a victim.

There's no doubt that the full story has yet to be revealed concerning the happenings at Anglo and, unfortunately, we'll probably never know exactly what happened there. I have no doubt that there is a massive cover-up going on to protect certain individuals.

HOWEVER, Quinn was part of the "Golden Circle" - a man who borrowed money from Anglo to buy shares in the bank.
Nobody forced him to do this

Any good work that he may have done in the past is now completely muddied by this.

I can't understand the mentality. People have been screaming that the persons behind the whole banking disaster need to be brought to task yet as soon as one of the biggest culprits is brought to court, people start defending him.
What is wrong with people in this country? Why must we constantly defend the underhanded pull-a-fast-one tricksters?
I used to love reading about Quinn and how he built up a massive business empire from absolutely nothing. I thought it was a fantastic story.
Now all I see is a man who built up an empire, got greedy, broke the rules and then gave two fingers to the country and acted dishonestly.

You can't just take the positives and ignore the negatives.

Heroditas

Happyman42 wrote: »

If Quinn was a fraudster and thief, why didn't he just cut and run, he had, after all the loot?
He didn't run, his son didn't run, we all know they are in comtempt and are prepared to go to jail. They aren't going away and they are prepared to fight their case, I defend that right and that is making some very uncomfortable.

They didn't run because they believe they are above the law.

later12

Happyman42 wrote: »

Anybody has a right to break a High Court order if they believe they are right.:

No they don't.

Justice is not a system to which citizens subscribe when it suits them, and reject when they have something to lose.

Sean Quinn has engaged the courts when he thought he might be successful. When he was disappointed, he just did what he wanted to do regardless. What he and his family have done is indefensible.

R P McMurphy

Show Time wrote: »

Is a personal insults the best you can come up with???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


They are out in support of a family who have fcuked this country so bad that the kids will be leaving for the next twenty years to find work.


So ya they would be slow anywhere in Ireland to support the Quinns.

According to the last census there were 72,874 persons living in Cavan. There were 4000 people at the rally and more than likely a large percentage of those present were from across the border. Can you see any flaw in the logic that led you to your previous statement

thebaz

ferike1 wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole chiming in with his opinion!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html?via=mr

excellent article - at a time when most Irish citizens are being squeezed to the point of poverty, Quinn should make some attempt to pay back a little of what he owes - shame

Happyman42

Heroditas wrote: »

The fact that he broke the law and was found guilty by a court yet people still defend him to the hilt and make him out to be a victim.

His son and nephew have been found guilty of 'contempt' of the court. They are in contempt because they believe they are in the right. Far as I can see, Sean Quinn is still in the juristriction, prepared to take the consequences of his actions.
I defend their right to FULLY explain to the court what their position is, why they took the actions they did. And that can only be done if the full story is told and all the players are in the court and answerable.

There's no doubt that the full story has yet to be revealed concerning the happenings at Anglo and, unfortunately, we'll probably never know exactly what happened there. I have no doubt that there is a massive cover-up going on to protect certain individuals.

HOWEVER,

'HOWEVER' my arse, when I see the moral high grounders calling for a the FULL STORY to be revealed first, then I will believe that their motivations are to see even handed justice.

Quinn was part of the "Golden Circle" - a man who borrowed money from Anglo to buy shares in the bank.
Nobody forced him to do this

He is the first to admit that and makes no bones about his mistake. He disagrees about the price he should pay for that though, if you start to throw stones at those who made 'mistakes' over the last 20 odd years, I hope you have plenty of stones.

Any good work that he may have done in the past is now completely muddied by this.

I can't understand the mentality. People have been screaming that the persons behind the whole banking disaster need to be brought to task yet as soon as one of the biggest culprits is brought to court, people start defending him.
What is wrong with people in this country? Why must we constantly defend the underhanded pull-a-fast-one tricksters?

Nobody is defending him, he undoubtedly did wrong, but to do what was done was also wrong, as far as the community affected are concerned.
If what he did in the begining was wrong, why wasn't he simply arrested, charged with a criminal offence and sentenced, was the evidence not all there? He himself admitted he owed the bank money and offered to pay it back, did he not, why wasn't he given that opportunity? That is what I don't understand, could you explain why that was?

Happyman42

later12 wrote: »

No they don't.

Yes they do, if they are prepared to take the consequnces.