Rally for The Quinn-were you there?

Tom Joad

liamhana wrote: »

Quinn has lumbered each & every insurance policy holder with a 2% levy due to his inability to see that the money in the insurance company wasnt his to do with as he pleased. This is the crux of the issue...all these deals were 'company' money, not Quinn money & he moved it around & doled it out to family & russians like it was his personal stash.
He's created this problem himself & as the judges have repeatedly stated these 'problems' etc would cease if he stopped trying to put assets which he owes beyond the state.
Screw his defence that 'the bankers' made him do it, if he's such a succesful business man as cavan people would like him to be seen as, then no banker was gonna be able to push him into doing anything.

Well said but enough with the sweeping generalisms about Cavan people - over 95% of them were not at the rally... Its like sayind every Dub voted for Bertie knowing he was corrupt :rolleyes:

Happyman42

Biggins wrote: »

Maybe - just maybe because of his complex antics - the investigators are still working on that also!

:D That's very handy for those who don't want the antics of Anglo and what went on, exposed though, is it not?
They where well able to take his company off him based on 'investigations'.

Biggins

We often see on boards.ie, members posting, giving out about how some home-owners were stupid and reckless to be taking out loan amounts in the thousands to buy their home (and maybe they were reckless!) - but along come Mr Quinn who took out even MASSIVELY larger loans in the hundreds of MILLIONS and some in Cavan thickly think he should get away with not living up to his responsibilities instead!

The irony of it is bloody huge!

Biggins

Happyman42 wrote: »

:D That's very handy for those who don't want the antics of Anglo and what went on, exposed though, is it not?
They were well able to take his company off him based on 'investigations'.

...And they did so based on the fact that such was his ducking and diving, lying, etc that they took the company LEGALLY through the Irish courts, using the law, in order to get answers that he himself was allegedly unwilling to provide!

In other words, by his own action (or lack of them!), he brought about the loss of his own company!

Noreen1

Biggins wrote: »

We often see on boards.ie, members posting, giving out about how some home-owners were stupid and reckless to be taking out loan amounts in the thousands to buy their home (and maybe they were reckless!) - but along come Mr Quinn who took out even MASSIVELY larger loans in the hundreds of MILLIONS and some in Cavan thickly think he should get away with not living up to his responsibilities instead!

The irony of it is bloody huge!

Ah, but did they come to the rally because they think he should get away with something - or because they believe he's been made the sacrificial lamb, in the hope that we vent all our anger at Sean Quinn, and conveniently forget the rest?

Biggins

Noreen1 wrote: »

Ah, but did they come to the rally because they think he should get away with something - or because they believe he's been made the sacrificial lamb, in the hope that we vent all our anger at Sean Quinn, and conveniently forget the rest?

Did some come out of sheer curiosity also?

(I personally don't think that all there outright supported Mr Quinn and his antics - but I could be wrong)


Is he the "sacrificial lamb" or is he just one more that in the last few weeks have been called to account, to answer for their antics!

A following of the news in the last few weeks might answer that.

His followers however are perhaps trying to portray him as the "sacrificial lamb" - when in fact, others now too have been arrested and called to answer for their own antics.

...But some Quinn supporters don't wish that to be acknowledged I suspect!

No, its poor old Sean Quinn that the state is just after!

(NOT!)

R P McMurphy

Biggins wrote: »

Did some come out of sheer curiosity also?

(I personally don't think that all there outright supported Mr Quinn and his antics - but I could be wrong)


Is he the "sacrificial lamb" or is he just one more that in the last few weeks have been called to account, to answer for their antics!

A following of the news in the last few weeks might answer that.

His followers however are perhaps trying to portray him as the "sacrificial lamb" - when in fact, others now too have been arrested and called to answer for their own antics.

...But some Quinn supporters don't wish that to be acknowledged I suspect!

No, its poor old Sean Quinn that the state is just after!

(NOT!)

When you refer to some in cavan, it might be better to quantify the some, it is a small minority and a poll in local paper showed recently that a majority believe that not only should he be answerable for his actions but should serve jail time

Happyman42

Biggins wrote: »

...And they did so based on the fact that such was his ducking and diving, lying, etc that they took the company LEGALLY through the Irish courts, using the law, in order to get answers that he himself was allegedly unwilling to provide!

He is in court for what happened AFTER the antics in Anglo. Not for those antics themselves.

Biggins

R P McMurphy wrote: »

When you refer to some in cavan, it might be better to quantify the some, it is a small minority and a poll in local paper believe that not only should he be answerable for his actions but should serve jail time

I did say indeed "some" in regard to those there.
I wonder how that poll was taken also?

I would like to see national figures who support Sean versus a local poll though.
Until then we can only partially trust other indicators of that way the bigger nation is thinking by looking at lose polls such as this one: http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-do-you-agree-with-supporters-of-the-quinn-family-537688-Jul2012/

Biggins

Happyman42 wrote: »

He is in court for what happened AFTER the antics in Anglo. Not for those antics themselves.

Very true - his unwillingness to live up to his end of the deal, he himself wished to and did, get into.
...And when it didn't go as he wanted?

"Feck them - I'm not paying and I will use evey trick in the book not to do so!"

(I paraphrase)

Happyman42

Biggins wrote: »

Very true

Any idea why that is?
After all, if somebody is up for murder, you don't try them for hiding the body first, then the murder.
Unless you don't want them revealing why the murder happened or who else was involved, of course.

Biggins

Happyman42 wrote: »

Any idea why that is?
After all, if somebody is up for murder, you don't try them for hiding the body first, then the murder.
Unless you don't want them revealing why the murder happened or who else was involved, of course.

Staying on topic, the fact is that Quinn (when he wouldn't play ball with the newly formed bank from the ashes of the Anglo) had be be brought to court. He wan't co-operating with them to any success.

When he was there in court, he gave his word he would indeed help the court in their endevors (just like he might have promised the IBRC) - but he didn't.
If fact as we know now, he did anything but!

In both cases they were not asking for a body - they were asking him to provide info on what the hell he was up to and repay what he owed!
In both cases, it appears, he decided to ignore them!

Thus the current mess, he himself, by his actions and/or in-actions, is now in!

fryup

Biggins wrote: »

We often see on boards.ie, members posting, giving out about how some home-owners were stupid and reckless to be taking out loan amounts in the thousands to buy their home (and maybe they were reckless!) - but along come Mr Quinn who took out even MASSIVELY larger loans in the hundreds of MILLIONS and some in Cavan thickly think he should get away with not living up to his responsibilities instead!

The irony of it is bloody huge!

ah but he's a good catholic and he's in the GAA....he's a great man

Noreen1

Biggins wrote: »

Very true - his unwillingness to live up to his end of the deal, he himself wished to and did, get into.
...And when it didn't go as he wanted?

"Feck them - I'm not paying and I will use evey trick in the book not to do so!"

(I paraphrase)

The problem with that is that he apparently got into that deal based on lies (according to his supporters - I don't know.)
If that is the case - then Anglo were guilty of obtaining investment through fraud.
Why has that case not been before the Courts?
When was the law changed (if it was changed) - to allow Sean Quinn to be pursued for debts arising from an illegal contract?
Who made that decision? Why was that decision taken in relation to Sean Quinn, yet our TDs were apparently powerless to change the law when the golden circle of developers were using loopholes to avoid paying their debts?

The next obvious question is - why was Sean Quinn initially offering a payment plan, if his sole intention was not to pay what he owed?
Fair enough, he may (or may not) have wanted an interest free loan, and his figures may/may not have stacked up - but he was a businessman with a proven track record, and I'm personally confident that he could have paid back the bulk of the money.
Instead, a valuable Company was sold for €1. Who made that decision?
Was that decision the best one for the Irish taxpayer? Who gained most from that decision? Who are the shareholders in the Company who bought Quinn Insurance?
Remember, the shortfall for Quinn insurance is being made up for by a levy on insurance - so why was it necessary to sell a profitable Company for €1?

These are just some of the questions we need answers to - but no-one seems willing to ask, because they're too busy venting their anger at Sean Quinn.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven imo,
It's time everyone cooled down, demanded unbiased journalism, took a long hard look at all the facts - and then decide where the most ire is due.
I'm willing to bet that Sean Quinn would come out smelling a lot better than some other people if all the facts were known.

stepbar

Noreen1 wrote: »

The problem with that is that he apparently got into that deal based on lies (according to his supporters - I don't know.)
If that is the case - then Anglo were guilty of obtaining investment through fraud.
Why has that case not been before the Courts?
When was the law changed (if it was changed) - to allow Sean Quinn to be pursued for debts arising from an illegal contract?
Who made that decision? Why was that decision taken in relation to Sean Quinn, yet our TDs were apparently powerless to change the law when the golden circle of developers were using loopholes to avoid paying their debts?

The next obvious question is - why was Sean Quinn initially offering a payment plan, if his sole intention was not to pay what he owed?
Fair enough, he may (or may not) have wanted an interest free loan, and his figures may/may not have stacked up - but he was a businessman with a proven track record, and I'm personally confident that he could have paid back the bulk of the money.
Instead, a valuable Company was sold for €1. Who made that decision?
Was that decision the best one for the Irish taxpayer? Who gained most from that decision? Who are the shareholders in the Company who bought Quinn Insurance?
Remember, the shortfall for Quinn insurance is being made up for by a levy on insurance - so why was it necessary to sell a profitable Company for €1?

These are just some of the questions we need answers to - but no-one seems willing to ask, because they're too busy venting their anger at Sean Quinn.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven imo,
It's time everyone cooled down, demanded unbiased journalism, took a long hard look at all the facts - and then decide where the most ire is due.
I'm willing to bet that Sean Quinn would come out smelling a lot better than some other people if all the facts were known.

Did you read the plan that was produced?

At one stage the Quinns stated that all of the debt would be paid back. When they realised that the "plan" (hogwash IMO) was not acceptable to the Financial Regulator (rightly IMO) they then started to question the "legitimacy" of the debt. How do you honestly square that?

Sean Quinn also believes that the Quinn family is not liable for €2.3 billion because same debt was secured on the shares of the Quinn Group and despite the fact that the loans were taken out personally. He also constantly refers to the amount of cash that was held within Quinn Insurance as if same was available to use. Really shows his financial prowess.

In any event, the Quinn children owned the Quinn Group. Sean Quinn had no interest in same. Why did the Quinn children accept the loans from Anglo given that "Daddy" had amassed the CFD position???

Happyman42

Noreen1 wrote: »

The problem with that is that he apparently got into that deal based on lies (according to his supporters - I don't know.)
If that is the case - then Anglo were guilty of obtaining investment through fraud.
Why has that case not been before the Courts?
When was the law changed (if it was changed) - to allow Sean Quinn to be pursued for debts arising from an illegal contract?
Who made that decision? Why was that decision taken in relation to Sean Quinn, yet our TDs were apparently powerless to change the law when the golden circle of developers were using loopholes to avoid paying their debts?

The next obvious question is - why was Sean Quinn initially offering a payment plan, if his sole intention was not to pay what he owed?
Fair enough, he may (or may not) have wanted an interest free loan, and his figures may/may not have stacked up - but he was a businessman with a proven track record, and I'm personally confident that he could have paid back the bulk of the money.
Instead, a valuable Company was sold for €1. Who made that decision?
Was that decision the best one for the Irish taxpayer? Who gained most from that decision? Who are the shareholders in the Company who bought Quinn Insurance?
Remember, the shortfall for Quinn insurance is being made up for by a levy on insurance - so why was it necessary to sell a profitable Company for €1?

These are just some of the questions we need answers to - but no-one seems willing to ask, because they're too busy venting their anger at Sean Quinn.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven imo,
It's time everyone cooled down, demanded unbiased journalism, took a long hard look at all the facts - and then decide where the most ire is due.
I'm willing to bet that Sean Quinn would come out smelling a lot better than some other people if all the facts were known.

Couldn't have put it better. Well said but you haven't included any bile to keep it on topic!

Tom Joad

Noreen1 wrote: »

The problem with that is that he apparently got into that deal based on lies (according to his supporters - I don't know.)
If that is the case - then Anglo were guilty of obtaining investment through fraud.
Why has that case not been before the Courts?
When was the law changed (if it was changed) - to allow Sean Quinn to be pursued for debts arising from an illegal contract?
Who made that decision? Why was that decision taken in relation to Sean Quinn, yet our TDs were apparently powerless to change the law when the golden circle of developers were using loopholes to avoid paying their debts?

The next obvious question is - why was Sean Quinn initially offering a payment plan, if his sole intention was not to pay what he owed?
Fair enough, he may (or may not) have wanted an interest free loan, and his figures may/may not have stacked up - but he was a businessman with a proven track record, and I'm personally confident that he could have paid back the bulk of the money.
Instead, a valuable Company was sold for €1. Who made that decision?
Was that decision the best one for the Irish taxpayer? Who gained most from that decision? Who are the shareholders in the Company who bought Quinn Insurance?
Remember, the shortfall for Quinn insurance is being made up for by a levy on insurance - so why was it necessary to sell a profitable Company for €1?

These are just some of the questions we need answers to - but no-one seems willing to ask, because they're too busy venting their anger at Sean Quinn.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven imo,
It's time everyone cooled down, demanded unbiased journalism, took a long hard look at all the facts - and then decide where the most ire is due.
I'm willing to bet that Sean Quinn would come out smelling a lot better than some other people if all the facts were known.

His payment plan was proven to be non-runner though and when his bluff was called he questioned the legitimacy of the loan!!!

I don't need any journalists to do my thinking for me - Its what judges of the highest courts in the land are saying that I am giving creedence to plus remember in court he is under oath and quite frankly he has been proven to be a liar.

Biggins

Noreen1 wrote: »

The problem with that is that he apparently got into that deal based on lies (according to his supporters - I don't know.)
If that is the case - then Anglo were guilty of obtaining investment through fraud.

If that was the case - he would have a case and I suspect, he would have perused it to be sure!
As it is, he went to the Anglo by his own initiative - they didn't ring him up I'm assuming and say "Hey, do you want to buy our bank?"

Noreen1 wrote: »

Why has that case not been before the Courts?

...Because maybe it didn't actually happen for all what his supporters might be claiming?
...And even if that was the case - it would be no excuse for the illegality of his actions which is now on record!

Noreen1 wrote: »

Why was that decision taken in relation to Sean Quinn...

Because it appears that in also chasing others for money owed (who might have been better co-operating so no need to drag them into court to get them to do so), he was also one of the biggest loaners that brought about its downfall!

Noreen1 wrote: »

The next obvious question is - why was Sean Quinn initially offering a payment plan, if his sole intention was not to pay what he owed?

It appears that it was either a delaying tactic while he continued to take actual money out of the country and/or was just simply dumping worthless properties in possible further fraud, to fool the bank into thinking he was co-operating (but inactual fact keeping the money).

I'm personally confident that he could have paid back the bulk of the money

Better far higher accountancy heads with possible decades in the business I believe have said he couldn't.
Indeed one later poster here showed an example of this.
However if you can show different - Sean I'm sure would welcome your input!

Instead, a valuable Company was sold for €1. Who made that decision?

Which company exactly?

Side note: For a legal transfer/sale of an item to be actually legal, "consideration" has to be shown to have took place.
In other words the transfer of assets/money from one person to another in return for something else.
Example:
(a) they sold 100,000 shares for a supposed ten Euro!
(b) 25.57 Million of assets in Red Sector, a Russian company (transferred to Kelly, the husband of Aoife) in return for a 308.52€ laptop.

....

Have to go out right now but will be back ASAP to answer some of the rest.

afterburn1

unkel wrote: »

And that coward Peter Darragh Quinn should be very careful. I wouldn't be surprised if someone (obviously not one of the loyal locals :rolleyes:) bundled him into their car and dropped him into a Garda station this side of the border...

I'd be very surprised if There was a "someone" with the guts to try it.:cool:

Happyman42

Biggins wrote: »

Have to go out right now but will be back ASAP to answer some of the rest.

Your answers will always be inadequate and are immediately suspect because you aren't one of the players.

Etc

So, it looks like we're all going to be stung on our car insurance for the forseeable future because of the Quinn debacle. The family are getting 30,000 euro monthly living expenses. Sean's nephew is on the run, his daughter in law is on 320,000 grand a year. His wife is a housewife and can't be expected to read or understand what she reads or signs. As I understand it he's admitting to putting assets out of reach of the state. I fully realise that there is more than one side to every story but I can't for the life of me understand why 5000 people think this man and his family is being hard done by ?

Fr Brian, enlighten me ?

Biggins

Happyman42 wrote: »

Your answers will always be inadequate and are immediately suspect because you aren't one of the players.

I'm glad not to be one of the players!

Biggins

Etc wrote: »

...I can't for the life of me understand why 5000 people think this man and his family is being hard done by ?

Fr Brian, enlighten me ?

Even if they still think they are being hard done by, they are will getting some money: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/sean-quinns-five-children-get-30k-a-month-expenses-3186802.html

Sean Quinn’s five children get €30k a month expenses

THE five adult children of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn have been granted almost €30,000 in living expenses for them and their spouses.

Mr Quinn’s only son Sean Quinn Jnr, who is serving three months at Dublin’s Mountjoy prison for contempt of court, will receive €5,273.

ferike1

That's plenty

andrewdeerpark

I do not think anyone disputes that Sean Quinn was wrong pulling money from Quinn Insurance to try to cover losses in his Anglo investment.

However he got caught in a CFD vice their, and institutional investors smelt blood and short sold the Anglo stock sinking the bank and Quinn. Remember short selling of bank stock was almost universally banned post Anglo’s failure.

Anglo management together with its Auditors Ernst & Young cooked the books (where is the lawsuit there ala Enron and Arthur Anderson?) and told a lot of subsequent lies that were only exposed after the event, I have to assume Sean Quinn did not know the whole picture however he must have suspected their were serious problems when Anglo loaned him money to buy shares and prop up the bank in its dying days.

Anglo insistence on ruining Quinn and all his family around him definitely smacks of a vendetta hence the understandable backlash and support which I agree with, Sean Quinn’s argument is that a profitable company Quinn Insurance was ruined as part of this vendetta; confidence sapped from the company it was split up and auctioned off in pieces.

The legal system has a serious grudge against Sean Quinn as he was the pioneering insurance company that ruthlessly attempted to cut legal fees by settling cases early, dealing directly with clients bypassing solicitors and employing his own waged barristers all to the absolute disgust of the Dublin FAT cat legal vultures (some of them judges now), remember in the Quinn Insurance initial setup years we had rampant compo culture which Sean Quinn single handily tackled head on, the PIAB (subsequently watered down and picked over by the legal establishment) was setup modelled on a lot of his ideas. Sean Quinn tried to tame one of the bastions of power in the country and now they are feasting on his carcass and preaching from the benches, jailing his children all for extraordinary fees.

No mention of this sick legal profession and their campaign against Quinn by Vincent O’Tool in the legal read Irish Times today.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html?utm_source=News&utm_medium=Post&utm_content=Support%2Bfor%2Bshameless%2BQuinn%2Bis%2Bmisplaced&utm_campaign=In%2Bhouse%2BFacebook

TAKE ALL the money raised this year by the cuts in child benefit. And from cutting the school clothing and footwear allowance. And all the cuts to jobseekers’ benefit, rent supplement and fuel allowances for the elderly.

Throw in the restriction of one-parent family allowance to children under seven. Pile on all the cuts in back-to-education allowances and community employment schemes. Take all of that money from the pockets of the poorest people in Ireland this year and you still haven’t reached the amount Seán Quinn agrees he owes the Irish taxpayer.

This is nothing to do with the €2.3 billion he borrowed from Anglo Irish Bank to buy its shares. This is the €455 million he borrowed to buy property – using that property as security. In all the noise and distraction, this much is undisputed: Quinn borrowed the money and put up the property assets as collateral. The State, however idiotically, took over that loan. Since Quinn can’t pay it back, the Irish people now own those properties.

Thus, for example, the status of Karen Woods, a part-time receptionist with Joe Duffy Motors in north Dublin, as recipient of one of the largest public salaries in Ireland. The lucky Karen, then the girlfriend (now the wife) of Seán Quinn jnr, was paid €320,297 after tax (the equivalent of at least €400,000) last year by a Russian company whose assets belong entirely to the Irish people.

thebaz

just when you think it cant get worse, another 1.5 billion needed -

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0801/1224321234568.html

Under prussure

I personally that that Sean Quinn is in serious trouble because he has been involed in a cement and concrete cartel since he got into the cement and all the other court cases he has going on because he will have another one to contend with 10yrs in jail if he's caught for price fixing which I have in my possion.

Under prussure

Sean Quinn should not be feeling sorry for himself.All that money he got to start up all those different business he got through criminal activity.Sean Quinn when he first got start he started the cement business and he started fixing prices and cartellan coustomers with the other 2 big cement companies and with the massive pricing they were getting they could well afford to go into any business he wanted with all the criminal money you got from those price fixing agreements.So I just said I would tell that story

M three

Under prussure wrote: »

Sean Quinn should not be feeling sorry for himself.All that money he got to start up all those different business he got through criminal activity.Sean Quinn when he first got start he started the cement business and he started fixing prices and cartellan coustomers with the other 2 big cement companies and with the massive pricing they were getting they could well afford to go into any business he wanted with all the criminal money you got from those price fixing agreements.So I just said I would tell that story

Jesus.
Whats the chances this will be tomorrows irish independent quinn story? They love this sort of tripe.