Rally for The Quinn-were you there?

Biggins

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

You do realise that they actually created jobs! The jobs they created would still be there if it wasn't for the recession. If the government and Anglo hadn't acted they way they did another generation would be employed by Quinn Group in a few years. This 2 billion wasn't private profit, it was operating capital before the gov tried to strip assets. Sean Quinn was a very rich man and its great to see a more level playing field but things shouldn't have happened the way they did.

Yes - they created jobs - then dumped them in their asset stripping antics so they could then funnel the money/assets out of the country towards Russian banks.

....Or are you willing to forget that part or wish we not acknowledge it too?

...And their asset stripping antics is all on record - well at least the few records that the Quinn's was willing to hand over. The state had to go dig up some of the rest because the Quinn's wouldn't tell of what else they were up to!

Complete convenient blindness by some people.

nacimroc

"Iran to execute four people convicted over major bank fraud"

Ahmadinejad for Taoiseach!!

Anro

Biggins wrote: »

They were not taken as a first resort.

Really? Is that why instead of accepting Quinn’s 7-10yr debt repayment planthey decided to take over an empire worth billions, (part of which - Quinninsurance- a highly profitable company was sold for €1 ,) and from what I am hearing running it into the ground while lining their pockets with all the money they can.
"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

Birdie Num Num

Doom wrote: »

Up to now I didn't know much about Cavan, now I know there is at least 4000 fools living there.....:rolleyes:

I know plenty of Cavan people that don't agree with the Quinns nor their actions. It would also be worth noting that many of those on that rally are not Irish taxpayers.

Biggins

ferike1 wrote: »

But someone with a couple hundred wouldn't be creating paper companies for the sake of fooling the courts and making it hard to get at his assets. We are talking about the law here not about fairness.

...Or transferring money/shares from a company to daughter and then to a mother, to a son's girlfriend car shop worker, 100,000 shares for a tenner, even more transferred (in legal consideration) for a laptop!

They used every trick in the book - and it appears still are!

Tom Joad

Usual rabble rabble uninformed ****e here tonite. Quinn is not from Cavan - he's from Fermanagh (although he used the border as a convenience for many years). Rally was held in Ballyconnell because its the nearest town to Derrylin (in FERMANAGH) on this side of the border as it is the Irish Government the Quinns have issues with. So please drop the comments about how stupid Cavan people etc are. Shure wasn't the biggest Crook of them all a Dub and didn't ye all vote him back in!!!

PS - I'm from Cavan and I think the guy deserves all he gets and was like 95% of the people of Cavan were nowhere near that rally last night but hey carry on with no regard for the facts..

Ronin247

ferike1 wrote: »

Regardless of the Quinn hate.

He has to play by the rules like the rest of us. If I started trying to hide my assets from my creditors and the courts I'd go to jail too. The fact he created thousands of jobs doesn't put him above the law.

For the record I too have no affiliation or connection to the Quinns, Cavan or anything else connected to them.


When Quinn bought BUPA I remember legislation being rushed through overnight to change the rules to suit the government.It amazed me at the time that pedophile judges can escape through loopholes in the law,a former taoiseach couldnt be prosecuted because of a loophole in the law and yet the law could be changed overnight to stop Quinn from making a legitimate business move!!

VHI is underfunded according the European commission and the government has to take away its funding guarantee which really exposes the lie that Quinn was on a level playing field.

Something stinks in this whole Quinn mess and I suspect we will foot the bill no matter what the outcome, the only difference is that I blame the government not Quinn.(although I still think he is as crooked as the rest )

ferike1

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I would have the cash hidden in my parents house or whatever. That is the equivalent of Sean's case.

Okay so it's okay to do this because Anglo are a**holes?

In that case is it okay if I don't pay my TV license too because I don't like the post-office?

Happyman42

Biggins wrote: »

Yes - they created jobs - then dumped them in their asset stripping antics so they could then funnel the money/assets out of the country towards Russian banks.

....Or are you willing to forget that part or wish we not acknowledge it too?

...And their asset stripping antics is all on record - well at least the few records that the Quinn's was willing to hand over. The state had to go dig up some of the rest because the Quinn's wouldn't tell of what else they were up to!

Complete convenient blindness by some people.

Until we know what exactly went on in Anglo and who was involved I think it's wrong to completely damm this family. Don't forget Anglo screwed the whole country. Sort out and more to the point tell US what happened there first then start jailing people responsible.

And that is not to say Quinn was right or wrong.

Anro

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It was just a happy coincidence that a group came along, borrowed money fromt he bank and bought his shares off him for nearly €500m, then dissappeared in to the night leaving the money to be paid by no one.

The most Quinn's debt could have ever accounted for was 3% of the total of what anglo was owed.... That would never bring about the downfall of a bank or country

Anro

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

It would also be worth noting that many of those on that rally are not Irish taxpayers.

and you are basing this on what evidence???

Tom Joad

Anro wrote: »

and you are basing this on what evidence???

Its obvious that Quinn is from Fermanagh - Ballyconnell is just over the border from his base of Derrylin so conservatively 50% of those there would be from Fermanagh.

Biggins

Happyman42 wrote: »

Until we know what exactly went on in Anglo and who was involved I think it's wrong to completely damm this family. Don't forget Anglo screwed the whole country. Sort out and more to the point tell US what happened there first then start jailing people responsible.

And that is not to say Quinn was right or wrong.

There is TWO issues here - and NO ONE is saying Anglo is blamess for other deeds.
HOWEVER REGARDLESS of what Anglo did - Mr Quinn did what he did irrespective of Anglo - would people who are trying to muddy the waters by attempting to mix "O' but look what Anglo did too!" please stop!

Its not washing!

Quinn and co have broken the law - end of story and they are not above the law of the law - but they are still defying it!

How extensive did they go to hide money and launder it out of the country?
The Sunday Times gives one example:

Last December, Seán Quinn's wife went to the High Court to heap insult upon injury when she insisted that she was just a humble housewife who had been subjected to "undue influence" by her husband in the matter of a €3m loan from Anglo Irish Bank. She simply signed what was put in front of her without question, Patricia Quinn wailed, and limited her own financial dealings to running the household and buying the groceries.

It's a shame she didn't think to mention the children's shoes - even though they're all pampered adults with designer footwear - because the court wasn't buying that one. As it turned out Patricia Quinn had also been a director of 63 Quinn companies in this country, 28 in the UK and secretary of 10 of her husband's enterprises.

Last week, Judge Elizabeth Dunne outlined her husband's mendacity: dishonest, deceitful, dishonourable, evasive, uncooperative, obstructive, untruthful. Apart from the bankers themselves, the insatiably greedy Quinn family bear the greatest blame for the collapse of Anglo, and for the insufferable burden placed on Irish taxpayers. Yet they've clung to their luxuries; Mrs Quinn is still ensconced in the 15,000 sq ft Cavan mansion she refurbished with that €3m loan. And still utterly bewildered, no doubt, as to where it all came from.

Source: http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1072039.ece

Mr Quinn, who was once Ireland’s richest man, and his son, Sean, and nephew, Peter Darragh Quinn, were found guilty of contempt of court on Tuesday after Mrs Justice Dunne ruled that they had acted with “blatant dishonesty”. She said that they had deliberately defied an injunction by moving properties beyond the reach of the bank in a “manner as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be”.

The properties include a number of assets located in countries from Ukraine and Russia to Belize that were pledged against Anglo loans made to the Quinn International Property Group. Last year the IBRC won an injunction to protect these assets but brought a contempt of court claim against the Quinns last October after finding “proven evidence” that the family was “interfering” with the assets.

Source: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/construction-property/article3461452.ece

...And some people think they are just victims and innocent?

It stretches beyond stupidity to think and say so!

---

In attempt to run and hide money/assets - they closed some companies in sons and daughters names, opened up others in mothers and grandmothers names, transferred the money/assets all around like a game of musical chairs - they even hid money to as yet unborn children!

...And thats only the tip of the iceberg!

Innocent and just a victim of Anglo?

My arse!

trashcan

Dirk Gently wrote: »

He's not the messiah....

all together now ....."He's a very naughty boy ":D

Edit. Damn, beaten to the punch.

Tom Joad

Biggins wrote: »

Quinn and co have broken the law - end of story and they are not above the law of the law - but they are still defying it!

How extensive did they go to hide money and launder it out of the country?
The Sunday Times gives one example:



..And some people think they are just victims and innocent?

It stretches beyond stupidity to think and say so!

And even worse than this in their haste to hide the money they recklessly gave control of everything they were trying to squirel away to some dodgy Ukranian lawyers and neither Quinn or the Irish Govt or more importantly us the taxpayers will ever see this money again - its gone!!!

Strikes me as the actions of an arrogant spiteful man - If I can't have it nobody can - for this along he should get a long stretch in jail..

Anro

Tom Joad wrote: »

Its obvious that Quinn is from Fermanagh - Ballyconnell is just over the border from his base of Derrylin so conservatively 50% of those there would be from Fermanagh.

That is speculation not evidenced.
It seems a bit trivial to be arguing over wheather people at the rally were tax payers or not, when the bigger picture is ignored.
My question is Why has Quinn's main case against anglo been pushed back for more than three years?
To be honest I am really curious as to all the corruption in the Irish government and banking system which would come out as a result of that case. I for one would like to know the truth about where our hard earned tax money has gone over the years.

Biggins

Tom Joad wrote: »

And even worse than this in their haste to hide the money they recklessly gave control of everything they were trying to squirel away to some dodgy Ukranian lawyers and neither Quinn or the Irish Govt or more importantly us the taxpayers will ever see this money again - its gone!!!

Strikes me as the actions of an arrogant spiteful man - If I can't have it nobody can - for this along he should get a long stretch in jail..

Richard Woodhouse, an executive at the IBRC who has been investigating the affairs of Mr Quinn told the court that the entrepreneur had allowed his son-in-law to trade a €380 laptop for a €9.8 million property company as part of an “orchestrated attack to strip assets”.

But the antics don't stop there...

Peter Quinn had bought a €132 million property from the Quinns’ global property empire for just €1,000 while a “concocted claim” by a Belize company leeched €73 million from the bank’s control. In his affidavit Mr Woodhouse said that these steps had been taken “with the clear and undoubted intention of seeking to ensure there will be no value left” in any of the companies seized.

Source: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/construction-property/article3461452.ece

So besides NOT complying with the court ordered mandate to them - they still continued to make sure their debts was NOT paid off on which they still owe.

The state is still investigating them and still finding more of what they were up to when in fact they were supposed to be complying with the Irish court - but they weren't and still are not!

Tom Joad

Anro wrote: »

That is speculation not evidenced.
It seems a bit trivial to be arguing over wheather people at the rally were tax payers or not, when the bigger picture is ignored.
My question is Why has Quinn's main case against anglo been pushed back for more than three years?
To be honest I am really curious as to all the corruption in the Irish government and banking system which would come out as a result of that case. I for one would like to know the truth about where our hard earned tax money has gone over the years.

Its not speculation its an educated opinion - unlike some posted here (and that's not aimed at you) - it may be trivial but it does paint an interesting picture that its easy for Fermanagh people to protest when they won't have to pay for the carnage left in Quinns wake and the guy is held as a bit of a God up there.

You're right that Quinn's case will be fascinating as it will probably give a good idea of the corruption that was at the heart of the banking system but doesn't give Quinn a free pass or make him right.

Happyman42

Quinn family bear the greatest blame for the collapse of Anglo,

This is what I want to see examined in an impartial court, so that all those guilty can go to jail. I don't trust what I hear from banks and the establishment for some funny reason.
Less of the bile and blinkers, we have been told porkies for a long time now.

micro_dot

Reading the responses here has restored my belief in Irish sanity.

Should constituencies who support corrupt behaviour be made to create their own little State (with no Irish tax support) or pay extra taxes for infrastructure which is over and above the national average, due to politicians who bring home the bacon by holding the country to ransom? Is it corruption or is it democracy? Because there's no disincentive to backing someone who doesn't play right.

fasttalkerchat

ferike1 wrote: »

Okay so it's okay to do this because Anglo are a**holes?

In that case is it okay if I don't pay my TV license too because I don't like the post-office?

If you ran a small business and were in financial trouble. You cant get help anywhere and try to make a deal to pay taxes due over a 2 year period. Overnight the law is changed and while in a meeting with the revenue they come to your business and take what they want and hand over your business to other people.

You wouldn't do the same thing? Of course you would and so would everyone else here.

afterburn1

End/thread

Biggins

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If you ran a small business and were in financial trouble. You cant get help anywhere and try to make a deal to pay taxes due over a 2 year period. Overnight the law is changed and while in a meeting with the revenue they come to your business and take what they want and hand over your business to other people.

You wouldn't do the same thing? Of course you would and so would everyone else here.

That still don't make it right - and that still don't make it legal.

We would and should be still answerable to the law - but the Quinn's and their fooled supporters think they shouldn't be!

...And people wonder how other crooks like Haughty and co managed to get away with things?

Its because of such stupid mentality!

Overnight the law is changed

Applicable to business in then future transactions. Any changes in law were NOT retroactive in application.
...You forgot to mention that bit?

Happyman42

micro_dot wrote: »

Reading the responses here has restored my belief in Irish sanity.

Should constituencies who support corrupt behaviour be made to create their own little State (with no Irish tax support)

That'd be all of us then.:rolleyes:

fasttalkerchat

Biggins wrote: »

That still don't make it right - and that still don't make it legal.

We would and should be still answerable to the law - but the Quinn's and their fooled supporters think they shouldn't be!

...And people wonder how other crooks like Haughty and co managed to get away with things?

Its because of such stupid mentality!



Applicable to business in then future transactions. Any changes in law were NOT retroactive in application.
...You forgot to mention that bit?

I didnt' say he didn't break the law. All I am saying is that since we all (so far) agree that we would do the same I don't see why people criticise his supporters. I for one have more loyalialty to Quinn than Kenny or Aherne.

Biggins

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I didnt' say he didn't break the law. All I am saying is that since we all (so far agree) that we would do the same I don't see why people criticise his supporters. I for one have more loyalialty to Quinn than Kenny or Aherne.

Kenny or Ahern have not as of yet been accused of criminal action in a court (its my personal opinion that one of them should be maybe?) and/or have not found themselves in court, ignoring its orders (instead doing the exact opposite!).

Mrs Justice Elizabeth Dunne made a number of “co-operation orders” yesterday to force Mr Quinn to reverse measures that he and members of his family had taken to move about €500 million (516.77€ million) of assets beyond the reach of the lender.

LINK

People in Cavan are saying "He created jobs."
Yes he did - then he ruined them, dumped them as fast as he could through asset stripping, in order to try and get the money away from the state, out of the country and from paying what he owed!

People in Cavan are willing to see the first part - but are refusing to see the latter!

Why?
Through blind loyalty?

Madness!

thebaz

Quinn owes the Irish state over 2 billion - does any other citizen owe more to the state ?

if he made some attempt to pack back a little of what he owes , I would have respect for his past achievements, but his blatant greedy hiding of his assets so as not to repay a small amount of what he owes , has me wondering is greed still considered good, certainly within parts of the GAA and the Church - in particular when there is so much hardship in the Republic of Ireland today -

stepbar

Anro wrote: »

Really? Is that why instead of accepting Quinn’s 7-10yr debt repayment planthey decided to take over an empire worth billions, (part of which - Quinninsurance- a highly profitable company was sold for €1 ,) and from what I am hearing running it into the ground while lining their pockets with all the money they can.
"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

An empire apparently "worth" €4.3 billion (questionable - what is a cement silo worth for example???) and had debts of €4.1billion combined (€2.3 billion CFD related and held personally by the family and secured on the shares in the Quinn Group; €500 mill to the International Property Group personally borrowed by the family and €1.3 billion to the Quinn Group which was believed to be secured on assets (by way on Guarantees) within the Group Structure).

And "the plan" - namawinelake.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/quinnpublicmeeting.pdf

The Quinn Family put together a proposal which required an additional €650 mill cash injection into the Insurance company to bring same up to the solvency level required by the Financial Regulator. So this would have brought the combined Quinn debt to €4.75bil. Within same plan there is no mention of any interest to be paid on the debt - effectively the Quinn Family wanted a 7 year interest free loan from Anglo.

According to the slides in the PDF above, Quinn Insurance would have returned a total of €600 mil to Anglo (page 20) ..... Anglo was asked to input €650 mil.... Negative return already. A figure of €765 mil was mentioned on Page 22 - At odds with Page 20.

According to the same slides, the remainder of the Quinn Group (ex property in the International Property Group) was predicted to have an EBITDA of c€746 mil between 2010 and 2014 or c186.5 mil per annum. Lets be generous and multiple €746 mil x 2 to "roughly" account for EBITDA over a 7 yr period = €1,492 mil (would leave a surplus of €192mil in the Quinn Group for distribution against Anglo debt). Still not enough to repay the Anglo debt. Lets add in the rental income from the International Property Group - reported at $35mil per annum. Over 7 years same would still not gross enough to repay the entire debt.

In short the "plan" depended on

1. the trade sale of Quinn Insurance (at a projected value in 7 years time),
2. no interest on debt for 7 years,
3. a further cash injection of €650 mil which would have, initially brought up the solvency ratio to the level required but seen same deteriorate over 7 years and would have produced a negative return on the funds invested.

Lets also remember that EBITDA for the manufacturing division came to €104 mil in 2009 - http://www.quinn-group.com/latest/latestdetail.cfm/news/74/Press_Release_27_May_2011.htm.

In short, the plan would NOT have grossed enough hard cash to repay the debt in 7 years and depended on an event that may / may not happen in 7 years time.

woodoo

Let it all go to court where the truth can all come out. There is something fishy going on. Bring it to the courts and they can try and find out.

thebaz

woodoo wrote: »

Let it all go to court where the truth can all come out.

I thought it did go to court and Quinn was charged with contempt and obstructing justice ?