Heineken Cup Final - Dublin 2013 [NO TICKET SALES HERE!!!]

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

Are you not suggesting the same thing though? One all French final isn't really a justification for predicting a "period of French dominance" is it? You said yourself that Clermont are what they're cracked up to be and then you suggest the French will dominate? A bit paradoxical no?

Just look at how strong these French teams are getting, they are taking the competition more seriously. It's clear to most people that Irish dominance of the competition is coming to an end.

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

Just look at how strong these French teams are getting, they are taking the competition more seriously. It's clear to most people that Irish dominance of the competition is coming to an end.

Who are "most people"? Who else has said this?

I think the Irish sides will be fine next season, they are all in Tier One and will avoid all the bigger French hitters (except Racing Métro) until the knockouts. After that it's a lottery, as we saw in Clermont/Munster. Munster, Leinster and Ulster will have a great chance at progressing to the knockout stages.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

Just look at how strong these French teams are getting, they are taking the competition more seriously. It's clear to most people that Irish dominance of the competition is coming to an end.

Why? Give reasons now, no bluffage

Leinster are looking just as strong as they did last season, Ulster and Munster are good sides too that will compete

Was it not you that was saying Munster are superior to Toulouse (One of the top 3 sides in France) "in every department"? :rolleyes:

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

Who are "most people"? Who else has said this?

I think the Irish sides will be fine next season, they are all in Tier One and will avoid all the bigger French hitters until the knockouts. After that it's a lottery, as we saw in Clermont/Munster.

Most Munster fans I met admitted Clermont are well ahead of us.
It's no lottery, the stronger teams usually go through. Clermont won, because they were stronger, I told all we'd give Clermont a stronger game than Toulouse, but that's a only a 1 off game. We're a long way short.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

Most Munster fans I met admitted Clermont are well ahead of us.
It's no lottery, the stronger teams usually go through. Clermont won, because they were stronger, I told all we'd give Clermont a stronger game than Toulouse, but that's a only a 1 off game. We're a long way short.

What has that got to do with an era of French dominance? Munster are a weaker side than both Ulster and Leinster

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

Most Munster fans I met admitted Clermont are well ahead of us.
It's no lottery, the stronger teams usually go through. Clermont won, because they were stronger, I told all we'd give Clermont a stronger game than Toulouse, but that's a only a 1 off game. We're a long way short.

That is not the same as predicting a period of French dominance, come on now! Munster aren't the 'out and out' strongest Irish side.

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

That is not the same as predicting a period of French dominance, come on now! Munster aren't the 'out and out' strongest Irish side.

But they are just getting stronger and stronger. Look how easy Sarries swatted Ulster aside, and then Toulon just smashed them.

Who will we sign ? (Irish teams this season) and then compare that to the French.

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

Why? Give reasons now, no bluffage

Leinster are looking just as strong as they did last season, Ulster and Munster are good sides too that will compete

Was it not you that was saying Munster are superior to Toulouse (One of the top 3 sides in France) "in every department"? :rolleyes:

I said we'd give Clermont a better game than Toulouse in a 1 off. In a league, I said Toulouse are well ahead of us. I was proven emphatically right in that.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

I said we'd give Clermont a better game than Toulouse in a 1 off. In a league, I said Toulouse are well ahead of us. I was proven emphatically right in that.

You said that Munster were better than Toulouse in "virtually every department"

Must have some short term memory loss

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

But they are just getting stronger and stronger. Look how easy Sarries swatted Ulster aside, and then Toulon just smashed them.

Who will we sign ? (Irish teams this season) and then compare that to the French.

French sides have had bigger budgets than every other country in the HC for the last ten years and it hasn't stopped Irish sides dominating the competition

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

You said that Munster were better than Toulouse in "virtually every department"

Must have some short term memory loss

Yes, in a 1 off game. That was proven. How I got banned from the Munster thread for that I don't know.

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

But they are just getting stronger and stronger. Look how easy Sarries swatted Ulster aside, and then Toulon just smashed them.

Who will we sign ? (Irish teams this season) and then compare that to the French.

Now you're making a coherent argument. Although it completely opposes your previous argument that Munster are better "virtually everywhere" than Toulouse.

Irish teams have a completely different remit to French sides, even if we had the money we wouldn't spent most of it on foreigners because we can't. The provinces are wholly owned subsidiaries (or the equivalent) of the IRFU and must supply Irish Qualified players to the IRFU. The French sides are businesses and largely don't care about producing French Qualified Players as long as they are within the JIFF rules, which only demands clubs produce players through their academy that won't necessarily go on to play to France.

While the French sides are getting stronger, the increasing JIFF restrictions will mean they will have to produce more players themselves rather than buy in the Haymans, Mitchells or Habanas of the world as quick fixes. Irish sides have always done well against France's riches, it's a case of 'wait and see' rather than "the Irish sides are ****ed" kind of prediction. A State of the Nation statement can wait for a year or two.

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

French sides have had bigger budgets than every other country in the HC for the last ten years and it hasn't stopped Irish sides dominating the competition

They are taking it more seriously now, teams like Toulon, they've come from nowhere, and our great teams have aged. Can't be expecting the likes of POC and BOD to keep winning.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

Yes, in a 1 off game. That was proven. How I got banned from the Munster thread for that I don't know.

So Munster are superior to Toulouse "virtually everywhere" in a once off game, but Toulouse are "well ahead" of Munster?!

What in the name of god does that mean man?!

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

They are taking it more seriously now, teams like Toulon, they've come from nowhere, and our great teams have aged. Can't be expecting the likes of POC and BOD to keep winning.

Toulon have been one of the best clubs in France for the last 5 years!?

How are they taking it more seriously this season as opposed to last when there were 3 French sides in the quarter finals?!

Also, the Irish provinces have rafts of young talent coming through

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

So Munster are superior to Toulouse "virtually everywhere" in a once off game, but Toulouse are "well ahead" of Munster?!

What in the name of god does that mean man?!

We'd be well down in the French league, but we can knock anyone out of a cup competition. We were able to target this game. Came up short, but gave it 1 hell of a go. But there was a gulf in class as far as I could tell.

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

Toulon have been one of the best clubs in France for the last 5 years!?

How are they taking it more seriously this season as opposed to last when there were 3 French sides in the quarter finals?!

Also, the Irish provinces have rafts of young talent coming through

How many years are Toulon competing in the H Cup ?

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

We'd be well down in the French league, but we can knock anyone out of a cup competition. We were able to target this game. Came up short, but gave it 1 hell of a go. But there was a gulf in class as far as I could tell.

This has nothing to do with Clermont

You said Toulouse were "well ahead of Munster" and yet you also said Munster were "superior in every department" to Toulouse. Can you not see how that is a direct contradiction and makes absolutely no sense?

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

Now you're making a coherent argument. Although it completely opposes your previous argument that Munster are better "virtually everywhere" than Toulouse.

Irish teams have a completely different remit to French sides, even if we had the money we wouldn't spent most of it on foreigners because we can't. The provinces are wholly owned subsidiaries (or the equivalent) of the IRFU and must supply Irish Qualified players to the IRFU. The French sides are businesses and largely don't care about producing French Qualified Players as long as they are within the JIFF rules, which only demands clubs produce players through their academy that won't necessarily go on to play to France.

While the French sides are getting stronger, the increasing JIFF restrictions will mean they will have to produce more players themselves rather than buy in the Haymans, Mitchells or Habanas of the world as quick fixes. Irish sides have always done well against France's riches, it's a case of 'wait and see' rather than "the Irish sides are ****ed" kind of prediction. A State of the Nation statement can wait for a year or two.

I think the Irish sides have been punching well above their weight. When has an English club won the competition last?

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

I think the Irish sides have been punching well above their weight. When has an English club won the competition last?

How? In what way? I mean do you see how ridiculous these kinds of statements are when you don't even try to back them up

Leinster utterly dominated European rugby for 4 years, as did Munster for 2 before them. They weren't punching above their weight, they were just good

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

I think the Irish sides have been punching well above their weight. When has an English club won the competition last?

I don't think we're punching above our weight, Ireland has some bloody good sides. The English have declined, there's no doubt about that. However Leicester have had zero luck in some of the pools they've drawn in the last few seasons. They got Ulster & Clermont last season and then Ospreys and Toulouse this season.

Next season I think the Irish and French sides will do well in the Heineken Cup, the draws will suit them.

trouttrout

I think the Leinster side that lined out against Biarritz would have beaten Clermont at the weekend. They could very easily be going for 3 in a row if Munster had failed to get the 4 tries against Racing

awec

The Irish sides have the benefit of playing in a league that's not as strong as the Aviva and the T14. They are able to rest players left right and centre and still win games and are able to entirely build their season around the HEC.

I don't think we've punched above our weight, but we do benefit from the current system.

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

How? In what way? I mean do you see how ridiculous these kinds of statements are when you don't even try to back them up

Leinster utterly dominated European rugby for 4 years, as did Munster for 2 before them. They weren't punching above their weight, they were just good

Do you still think Toulon have been 1 of top French teams for 5 years? If you do,,,,you are alone.

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think we're punching above our weight, Ireland has some bloody good sides. The English have declined, there's no doubt about that. However Leicester have had zero luck in some of the pools they've drawn in the last few seasons. They got Ulster & Clermont last season and then Ospreys and Toulouse this season.

Next season I think the Irish and French sides will do well in the Heineken Cup, the draws will suit them.

A lot will depend on Leinster's coach. Look at Munster's decline under McGahan.

I agree re Tigers, they are still are a very strong team.

Rightwing

awec wrote: »

The Irish sides have the benefit of playing in a league that's not as strong as the Aviva and the T14. They are able to rest players left right and centre and still win games and are able to entirely build their season around the HEC.

I don't think we've punched above our weight, but we do benefit from the current system.

That's probably more accurate alright. If the tigers were in the Rabo, they'd certainly do a lot better.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

Do you still think Toulon have been 1 of top French teams for 5 years? If you do,,,,you are alone.

Yes, they certainly have been. They were narrowly beaten in the final of the top 14 last season

I see you're still refusing to explain how Munster can be superior in every department to Toulouse yet still far behind them btw

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

Do you still think Toulon have been 1 of top French teams for 5 years? If you do,,,,you are alone.

You don't think Toulon have been a top French team?


Well let's look at their league finishes over the past few seasons:

• 12/13: 1st or 2nd in league, will be semi-finalist at least. Will be HEC finalist at least.
• 11/12: 3rd in league, playoff finalist. Amlin finalist.
• 10/11: 8th in league, HEC quarter-finalist. Got out of extremely difficult pool with Munster, Ospreys and London Irish.
• 09/10: 2nd in league, lost semi-final in extra time to Clermont. Amlin CC finalist.
• 08/09: Avoided relegation following promotion in the previous year.

Since 09/10 they've done pretty well, they are definitely in the top 4 of French teams of the last while. The rise of Castres, Montpellier and Racing Metro has been more recent. In that time Perpignan and Stade Francais have regressed.

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

Yes, they certainly have been. They were narrowly beaten in the final of the top 14 last season

I see you're still refusing to explain how Munster can be superior in every department to Toulouse yet still far behind them btw

A few posts back.

trouttrout

thomond2006 wrote: »

You don't think Toulon haven't been a top French team?

Well let's look at their league finishes over the past few seasons:

• 12/13: 1st or 2nd in league, will be semi-finalist at least. Will be HEC finalist at least.
• 11/12: 3rd in league, playoff finalist. Amlin finalist.
• 10/11: 8th in league, HEC quarter-finalist. Got out of extremely difficult pool with Munster, Ospreys and London Irish.
• 09/10: 2nd in league, lost semi-final in extra time to Clermont. Amlin CC finalist.
• 08/09: Avoided relegation following promotion in the previous year.

Rightwing wrote: »

Am,,,last season is 1 season. Tell us where they were before that, and we'll see if you know your rugby.

Looks like Thomond beat me too it.