Confederate Flag

Given that the strongest international support for the Confederates came from Britain, can we see calls for the Union Jack to be similarly viewed? (the fact that Britain paid $15.5 million in compensation to the US after the US Civil War does not negate their support for the Confederates during the war).

American Civil War viewpoints: It was British arms that sustained the Confederacy

This notion that the Confederate flag is so awful but other flags which represent empires that have supported mass murder, colonisation, dehumanisation, slavery and so much more century after century are acceptable is risible. Either they're all up for removal, or none are. Otherwise, this demand has zero to do with genuine opposition to a moral wrong.

I look forward to the Fine Gael and Labour controlled Dún Laoghaire County Council removing the memorial they erected, with Irish public money, to the British Famine Queen a few years back.

And the same with all the other monuments and streetnames honouring heroes of the British Empire in Ireland. Alas it seems that we have the evil racist Confederates on one hand, and the nice inclusive British imperialists who wouldn't rape and colonise any people on the other. Surely, for US citizens monuments to the Confederates "are part of our history" and shouldn't be removed? (to use the obtuse argument utilised by the British Empire apologists when it's proposed to remove memorials to British Empire figures in Ireland).

And yes, I'll say it: the idea that people who support the US flag are looking down on people who support the Confederate flag as being "immoral" is, at best, rank ignorance on a stunning scale. It's more probably rank hypocrisy. Ever hear of the millions of people murdered/ gassed/poisoned/terrorised/tortured by the United States in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos etc etc in the 1960s and 1970s? Sure that was grand because sure weren't they all "communists"?

And what flag flew over the US concentration camps in the Philippines (1899-1902), crimes against humanity which most of the world still remains horrendously ignorant of? Or the US flag which flew over the concentration camps used to imprison some 120,000 Japanese-Americans during WWII (the 1940s!) explicitly because of their race? And the US flag during the genocide of the native Americans by all those God-fearing white cowboys glorified in so many egregiously racist US establishment films? And the US flag behind the overthrow of democratically elected socialist governments in Guatemala, Chile and elsewhere? And the war crimes and crimes against humanity - which the United States has supported. armed and internationally defended - against the Palestinian people for many decades?

But sure this US flag, honouring a state created by slaveowners like George Washington, Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson, is so clearly morally superior. Let's keep the focus on the racist Confederates and overlook the flagisation of bastardism, racism and imperialism that is the flag of the United States in 2017.

Confederate racists, bad; US/Yankee racists/imperialists/mass murderers, good.

A Little Pony

Not often I agree with you on much but you right on the hypocrisy of Americans on the US flag. Look what Sherman did to Native Americans, why is his statues still up?

Prickly Pete

kylith wrote: »

Swastika laundry predated WWII, and they stopped using the swastika when it became a symbol of the Nazi party, showing a consideration and awareness not shared by some people on this thread.

Wrong.

The logo and named continued being used until 1987.

Nabber

Confederate flag, confederate statues, slave owners....

I would worry that the American constitution is at risk, given that almost all involved were slave owners.

It's dangerous to wipe your slate clean. Least history repeat itself.

Slavery is terrible.
I wonder what slaves would think now of the possibilities current American Negros have in USA. I wonder how many would like to return back to Africa.
The same could be said on American Irish.
It was cheaper to hire Irish than own a slave... That's how we ended up building everything and not slaves as one would expect.

The past is often gruesome, but we all hope for a bright tomorrow.

InTheTrees

There's alot more to the civil rights movement in the USA then the civil war and slavery.

If you're thinking this is all about slavery then you're not paying attention. The movement for civil rights only started after slavery ended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URxwe6LPvkM

InTheTrees

Segregation in the southern USA in the 1960's

Black men having to get off the pavement if a white woman walks by, not alowed to try on clothes in shops, having to look down when certain people walk by.

If anyone thinks the hatred of the confederate flag is just some hang over from the civil war you're way off the point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K2SocnUHro

Lynchings of blacks in the southern USA. Note that the period ends in 1968. Not the civil war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9MPuHQ5BkY

nlrkjos

Sweet holy mother...some gowl of a local politician in Tuam is calling for the removal of a plaque to a confederate soldier on the town hall. The dialogue in this country is being run by people who'd give an anadin a headache and turn honey sour, some village is missing an idiot.
http://www.thejournal.ie/major-dick-dowling-memorial-tuan-town-hall-3554975-Aug2017/

Maybe we should ban the pope from coming here next year, and cancel Christmas and Easter, and while we are at it dig up the skeletons of all Irish freedom fighters from the war of independence and have a big bonfire with them.

Sofiztikated

nlrkjos wrote: »

Sweet holy mother...some gowl of a local politician in Tuam is calling for the removal of a plaque to a confederate soldier on the town hall. The dialogue in this country is being run by people who'd give an anadin a headache and turn honey sour, some village is missing an idiot.
http://www.thejournal.ie/major-dick-dowling-memorial-tuan-town-hall-3554975-Aug2017/

Maybe we should ban the pope from coming here next year, and cancel Christmas and Easter, and while we are at it dig up the skeletons of all Irish freedom fighters from the war of independence and have a big bonfire with them.

Did you actually read it, or jump to conclusions?

What the councillor proposed was reasonable, and fair. Willing to talk about it, and if necessary, move it to somewhere where context can be explained.

nlrkjos

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Did you actually read it, or jump to conclusions?

What the councillor proposed was reasonable, and fair. Willing to talk about it, and if necessary, move it to somewhere where context can be explained.

yes I read it and I don't jump to conclusions easily...the fool is just jumping on the latest bandwagon and trying to drum up a bit of controversy, upping his own profile over a total non-issue.

Sofiztikated

nlrkjos wrote: »

yes I read it and I don't jump to conclusions easily...the fool is just jumping on the latest bandwagon and trying to drum up a bit of controversy, upping his own profile over a total non-issue.

No doubt there's an element of that, he is an Irish politician, after all.

Doesn't mean that a grown up conversation can't be had about it.

nlrkjos

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No doubt there's an element of that, he is an Irish politician, after all.

Doesn't mean that a grown up conversation can't be had about it.

True...grown up conversations and Irish politicians ...never the twain shall meet ! but I really do wonder where all this will end, is the color black going to be banned..this is all going the same track as a manhole being renamed as an access cover ! baa baa black sheep ! christ almighty you can't even buy a youngfella a gun and holster anymore (if you're under 30 you wouldn't understand) it really has to stop unless it's actually going to physically hurt someone.

Sofiztikated

nlrkjos wrote: »

True...grown up conversations and Irish politicians ...never the twain shall meet ! but I really do wonder where all this will end, is the color black going to be banned..this is all going the same track as a manhole being renamed as an access cover ! baa baa black sheep ! christ almighty you can't even buy a youngfella a gun and holster anymore (if you're under 30 you wouldn't understand) it really has to stop unless it's actually going to physically hurt someone.

Manholes covers are still manhole covers.

http://www.topline.ie/plumbing-heating/plumbing/drainage-sewer/manhole-covers-frames

You can still sing baa baa black sheep, a couple of nurseries in England changed it, but it's no great deal.

And yes you can buy a gun and holster, go into Mr Price or Supersavers, or any of the normal cheap **** places.

Sofiztikated

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No doubt there's an element of that, he is an Irish politician, after all.

Doesn't mean that a grown up conversation can't be had about it.

Let's have a "grown-up conversation" about the streets and monuments in Ireland still named after servants of the British Empire and its monarchy and we'll be told by its apologists "That's part of our[sic] history and should never be removed!". The hypocrisy and political agenda here is something else.

Sofiztikated

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's have a "grown-up conversation" about the streets and monuments in Ireland still named after servants of the British Empire and its monarchy and we'll be told by its apologists "That's part of our[sic] history and should never be removed!". The hypocrisy and political agenda here is something else.

Not really, if a sensible argument can be made for or against it, I'd be in favour of them being listened to, and if necessary, adjustments made.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's have a "grown-up conversation" about the streets and monuments in Ireland still named after servants of the British Empire and its monarchy and we'll be told by its apologists "That's part of our[sic] history and should never be removed!". The hypocrisy and political agenda here is something else.

It's hardly the same thing, at least in 26 counties, where the statues are very much part of history rather than a reminder of prejudice that exists to this day, and so very different to the USA. In the 6 counties, the issues are certainly a lot more proximate and relevant, but again they have taken steps to mitigate the situation such as the limitation on the number of days the Union Jack can be flown outside Belfast City Hall.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

I look forward to the Fine Gael and Labour controlled Dún Laoghaire County Council removing the memorial they erected, with Irish public money, to the British Famine Queen a few years back.

And the same with all the other monuments and streetnames honouring heroes of the British Empire in Ireland. Alas it seems that we have the evil racist Confederates on one hand, and the nice inclusive British imperialists who wouldn't rape and colonise any people on the other. Surely, for US citizens monuments to the Confederates "are part of our history" and shouldn't be removed? (to use the obtuse argument utilised by the British Empire apologists when it's proposed to remove memorials to British Empire figures in Ireland).

What tears down your argument is that the place you chose as your example was called Kingstown for 100 years and was changed when we got our independence (along with British statues).

There are even confederate monuments in the likes of Arizona and Montana which weren't even states during the civil war.

Once again yours is another weak attempt at equivalence when there is none between Britain and Ireland.

whisky_galore

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's have a "grown-up conversation" about the streets and monuments in Ireland still named after servants of the British Empire and its monarchy and we'll be told by its apologists "That's part of our[sic] history and should never be removed!". The hypocrisy and political agenda here is something else.

An exercise in whataboutery.
Is there ongoing oppression here? Are we second class citizens in our own country? Are the British Police shooting Irish people dead at checkpoints? Don't think so.

If they are so distasteful and offensive, why did they not change the lot of them at any point since independence?

You're free to lobby and get them changed. Knock yourself out.

suicide_circus

To me, taking down statues of historical figures is akin to burning books.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

To me, taking down statues of historical figures is akin to burning books.

But the Confederate statues will be rehoused in museums...which is really more like keeping books in a library rather than burning them.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

But the Confederate statues will be rehoused in museums...which is really more like keeping books in a library rather than burning them.

That's fair enough so

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

That's fair enough so

I was actually the same as you. That, all things considered, they should stay up. Until a poster said they were going into museums. And I thought...well that makes sense...

suicide_circus

There is still a niggling feeling that this is the thin end of the wedge though...First They moved the statues and we said nothing..... It just feels a bit censorial.

Water John

Certainly remove these statues to museums. They were erected to let black people, know their place, underfoot.

I wouldn't at all agree with removing plaques that tell the reader who was born here and why they are famous/well known. Totally different.

Grayson

Water John wrote: »

Certainly remove these statues to museums. They were erected to let black people, know their place, underfoot.

I wouldn't at all agree with removing plaques that tell the reader who was born here and why they are famous/well known. Totally different.

But they should also be in context.

"Joe Bloggs was born here. He fought a war to retain the institution of slavery"

It's still accurate.

Water John

No need. Just state his rank in the Confederate Army and battles. People can read up the whole context of American Civil War for themselves.

Dont' know if there is a plaque to Lord Haw Haw in Galway, for example. Wouldn't see anything wrong with that, just stating he was born there and broadcast for the Reich, facts.

The_Valeyard

Water John wrote: »

Certainly remove these statues to museums. They were erected to let black people, know their place, underfoot.

I wouldn't at all agree with removing plaques that tell the reader who was born here and why they are famous/well known. Totally different.

Perhaps we should remove the Wellington monument from the Phoenix Park as it represents a military leader of a cruel imperial empire.

Richard Hillman

I think the town's should have a public vote for the vicinity on for what happens to statues and the likes.

They shouldn't have the media, minority groups and non-local professional protestors dictate the town's they live in.

If the towns people want their confederate statues and flags, they should get it.

FrostyJack

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I think the town's should have a public vote for the vicinity on for what happens to statues and the likes.

They shouldn't have the media, minority groups and non-local professional protestors dictate the town's they live in.

If the towns people want their confederate statues and flags, they should get it.

And if the town wants a statue to the cops who beat Rodney King, they should put it up, right? Nonsense. Just because a majority wants it doesn't make it right.