Confederate Flag

Leroy42

timthumbni wrote: »

Good perhaps as it reminded them of daisy duke and her short shorts in the Dukes of Hazard???????

So get a flag of Daisy Duke then.

Should they use Nazi flags coz some people thought Eva Braun was a bit of a looker?

Will I Am Not

RoboKlopp wrote: »

I didn't expect you to tbh.

It's a fair comparison. Both flags represent racism and are non Cork.

The racial connotations of a swastika are well known world wide and it has been a massive taboo all our lives. They are not even close to being the same thing.

Will I Am Not

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why do you think they use the flag then? You claim it isn't racist, so what it the reason for choosing this flag over the multitude of other red/white flags they could use.

And it is a choice. A person seeks out the flag, brings it to the game and stands under it. There is a thought process behind it and you seem very certain what it isn't.

It is not only an issue now, for blacks and other minorities living in those places it is always an issue but it has become more highlighted due to the recent events. The fact that it was overlooked to this point doesn't make it right

You say that you are against slavery etc yet you are happy for one of the main symbls of slavery in the western world to be displayed in our national stadium during our national game? The Irish, the GAA, should be well aware of the devastating effects that a collonial power can have on a population when they treat them are inferior. When they make laws that actively deny them their rights.

Everyone knows what the flag stands for. True its just a flag, but over time, like the Nazi symbol etc, they take on very specific connotations. You say you would put it outside your house save for people who don't know you making assumptions about you and making your life difficult. Imagine that. Imagine people taking one aspect of you and using it to make your life difficult. Instead of flag, which lucky for you you have a choice over, imagine you lived in a time or place where the colour of your skin was treated the same.

the flag that you want to fly outside your house is the symbol for the movement that wants, and did, treat people like that.

You will have people like you, and Cork fans, complaning that this is their right to carry the flag. Totally missing the point that the flag represents taking away peoples rights.

Another word for it is the rebel flag, that's why they fly it, nothing to do with the colours.

I don't want to fly any flag outside my house. I'm not from Cork and flags on a house are about as tacky as you get.
I'm just saying that if I was in that situation where the current climate suddenly dictates to take offence at something that was never really challenged over the years...

Korat

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

I abhor racism and the idea of slavery is absolutely disgusting, but if I was a Cork fan I'd nearly fly one on my house just to make a point.
The only thing that would stop me is the chances of people who don't know anything about me making it their mission to ruin my life and see me unemployed because that's the way the world works now.

If you really want to go against the flow to make a point put a Glasgow Rangers flag up.

In a tolerant society it shouldn't be a problem.

super_furry

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

The racial connotations of a swastika are well known world wide and it has been a massive taboo all our lives. They are not even close to being the same thing.

Huh? Please don't tell me you're unaware of the racial connotations of a battle standard that was flown exclusively in a war to defend slavery.

timthumbni

Leroy42 wrote: »

So get a flag of Daisy Duke then.

Should they use Nazi flags coz some people thought Eva Braun was a bit of a looker?

I don't consider them the same thing at all. I'm a NI (from unionist background) btw and have little love for GAA (for numerous reasons - the organisation btw not the actual game) and certainly no love for Cork but I really think people are overreacting to this flag in the cork gaa issue.

If they were flying it in a supremisist kkk style manner then I would be right beside you but it's obviously not and we have much bigger fish to fry at the moment in Europe in general. There is no point sweating over the small or non issues like this. My opinion obviously.

Bobeagleburger

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

The racial connotations of a swastika are well known world wide and it has been a massive taboo all our lives. They are not even close to being the same thing.

So it's not as well known so that makes it more acceptable.... Amazing the lengths people will go to defend these things.

The racial connotations of the confederate flag should now be known worldwide by anyone that didn't know about it before this year and last.

Will I Am Not

RoboKlopp wrote: »

So it's not as well known so that makes it more acceptable.... Amazing the lengths people will go to defend these things.

The racial connotations of the confederate flag shows now be known worldwide by anyone that didn't know before this year and last.

You're easily amazed. Cork fans used the flag because of the name "rebel flag", at a time where the flag wasn't causing the uproar it is today. Of course that is more acceptable than using a swastika at that same time.

A Little Pony

Deleted User wrote: »

pickarooney wrote: »

Washington, Lincoln and even Cromwell did perform some acts worth commemorating for the people who live where their statues appear, whereas the Confederate generals are memorable for nothing positive.

I think some of it may be almost rooting for the underdogs, but there is a portrayal of Southern leaders as dashing, gallant, fighting huge odds against the North with all its war machinery and numbers.  And succeeding in places like Bull Run and Frederiksburg, betrayed by stupidity and chance at Antietem which stopped their early success, ultimately doomed after Gettysburg when they only needed to take that hill and ended up forcing thousands of men across an open cornfield to their unavoidable death.  And there is so something almost attractive about hearing a historian like Shelby Foote speak of how brave and swashbuckling generals like Nathan Bedford Forrest were.  It's a bit like thinking "...but at least Rommel was a good guy, wasn't he?".

And then you think the cause was so ugly, so futile, trying to preserve a way of life that was doomed, and relied wholly on the subjugation of a race.  For all the appreciation of their leadership, Lee was particularly cruel to his slaves, Stonewall Jackson was a religious fanatic, Forrest founded the KKK etc.

But for all that, my initial thoughts were the statues should be retained, after all you can't rewrite history.  Until I heard that they are not being destroyed, but moved to museums.  And it's hard to think of reasons why that's such a bad idea.  It's not like they'll be erased from history, just removed from settings where their presence is objectionable.

Stonewall Jackson funded a Black Sunday school teaching African Americans  to read and write and funded it during the war, going out of his way to do so.

Leroy42

timthumbni wrote: »

If they were flying it in a supremisist kkk style manner then I would be right beside you but it's obviously not and we have much bigger fish to fry at the moment in Europe in general. There is no point sweating over the small or non issues like this. My opinion obviously.

I asked this earlier, but it seems people are very certain why it isn't being waved but why is it?

Why are people choosing this flag over the multitude of others they could fly, like for example the Cork flag itself, you know to support the Cork team.

What has the confederate flag got to do with Cork GAA? Nothing. Is the person using it not supporting Cork?

So by your logic taking a symbol and waving it around does not actually mean that you support it?

Lets pretend, for the sake of argument, that people simply were not aware of the true meaning of the flag. Lets give them the benefit that their lack of education meant that they only saw it as a Dukes of Hazard symbol. And the colours vaguely, as in it contains red and white (although what the blue and stars have to do with Cork it beyond me) pertain to the team they are supporting.

But lets give them all that. By after recent events, after Cork GAA comes out and says it doesn't want it, I think it is clear that anyone who chooses to use the flag from now on is agreeing with the meaning behind it and willing to stand under it despite that.

Bobeagleburger

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

You're easily amazed. Cork fans used the flag because of the name "rebel flag", at a time where the flag wasn't causing the uproar it is today. Of course that is more acceptable than using a swastika at that same time.

It's a racist flag.

super_furry

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

You're easily amazed. Cork fans used the flag because of the name "rebel flag", at a time where the flag wasn't causing the uproar it is today. Of course that is more acceptable than using a swastika at that same time.

So what you're saying is that now you know of the racial connotations and overtones and that you're aware that black people would find it a racist flag, you're happy to see people still fly it because they did in the past.

Leroy42

A Little Pony wrote: »

Stonewall Jackson funded a Black Sunday school teaching African Americans  to read and write and funded it during the war, going out of his way to do so.

There is no doubt that some of the confederate side did nice things, just as some on the north did bad things. Washington etc kept slaves for eg.

But when the time came to make a decision, to decide if those kids that he had helped to read and write should have the same rights as white people, should be allowed to live freely, should be paid for the work that made for many of them rich, he choose to side with those that wanted to retain slavery.

Your argument is akin to saying that the husband who beats up his wife and kids is not all bad as he buys them christmas presents.

A Little Pony

Leroy42 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Stonewall Jackson funded a Black Sunday school teaching African Americans  to read and write and funded it during the war, going out of his way to do so.

There is no doubt that some of the confederate side did nice things, just as some on the north did bad things.  Washington etc kept slaves for eg.

But when the time came to make a decision, to decide if those kids that he had helped to read and write should have the same rights as white people, should be allowed to live freely, should be paid for the work that made for many of them rich, he choose to side with those that wanted to retain slavery.

Your argument is akin to saying that the husband who beats up his wife and kids is not all bad as he buys them christmas presents.

The South had slavery, correct. The war wasn't started because of slavery, secession was because of the urge to expand it westward which Lincoln didn't agree with. The South could easily have stayed in the Union without a civil war and kept slavery IF they didn't aim to expand slavery. The problem was secession and Lincoln saw it as unacceptable. 
4
He didn't say to himself  'Oh crap they have slavery we must invade the South', not how it happened at all.

Will I Am Not

super_furry wrote: »

So what you're saying is that now you know of the racial connotations and overtones and that you're aware that black people would find it a racist flag, you're happy to see people still fly it because they did in the past.

I'm not really. I knew of the connotations well before now. In an ideal world this flag wouldn't exist.

It's more the recent calls for its removal due to what's happening in America that are grating on me. Yeah it shouldn't be there, it's just how this situation has come about. It will be something else when this blows over. The devil on man united's crest is offensive to Christians???

super_furry

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

I'm not really. I knew of the connotations well before now. In an ideal world this flag wouldn't exist.

It's more the recent calls for its removal due to what's happening in America that are grating on me. Yeah it shouldn't be there, it's just how this situation has come about. It will be something else when this blows over. The devil on man united's crest is offensive to Christians???

They're not recent. The Cork County board called for those flying this flag to stop two years ago, it's just been dragged back up because last week's events in Charlottesville reminded everyone that it's a racist flag.

If you "knew of the connotations well before now", and you're still defending the use of if the flag in a sporting setting, you're admitting that you know it's racist - you just don't care.

timthumbni

super_furry wrote: »

They're not recent. The Cork County board called for those flying this flag to stop two years ago, it's just been dragged back up because last week's events in Charlottesville reminded everyone that it's a racist flag.

If you "knew of the connotations well before now", and you're still defending the use of if the flag in a sporting setting, you're admitting that you know it's racist - you just don't care.

Context is everything with flags. I grew up hating the Irish flag because the only time I saw it was on Ira terrorists coffins.

Now I accept that it's simply the Irish flag. I still dislike it when it's used in a republican rally for example but know how to differentiate the two.

Same thing applies to the cork fans flying this flag. Is it stupid? Probably. Is it racist? NO... context and intent is everything...

Will I Am Not

super_furry wrote: »

They're not recent. The Cork County board called for those flying this flag to stop two years ago, it's just been dragged back up because last week's events in Charlottesville reminded everyone that it's a racist flag.

If you "knew of the connotations well before now", and you're still defending the use of if the flag in a sporting setting, you're admitting that you know it's racist - you just don't care.

Maybe the black people in Cork "just don't care" either?
Maybe they know there is no racial motivation behind it and so couldn't give a sh*te, I haven't heard of them complaining yet anyway.

Sofiztikated

timthumbni wrote: »

I don't consider them the same thing at all. I'm a NI (from unionist background) btw and have little love for GAA (for numerous reasons - the organisation btw not the actual game) and certainly no love for Cork but I really think people are overreacting to this flag in the cork gaa issue.

If they were flying it in a supremisist kkk style manner then I would be right beside you but it's obviously not and we have much bigger fish to fry at the moment in Europe in general. There is no point sweating over the small or non issues like this. My opinion obviously.

NI Unionist in contentious flag shocker.

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

You're easily amazed. Cork fans used the flag because of the name "rebel flag", at a time where the flag wasn't causing the uproar it is today. Of course that is more acceptable than using a swastika at that same time.

Yes, Cork fans used the flag because it was the rebel flag. Through their own ignorance of what the flag meant.

Should they be banned from using it? No. Should they decide to stop using it, to distance themselves from racist fuckwits? Well, that's up to them to decide.

Annasopra

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

Cromwell killed "His King" and when he eventually died himself and the British monarchy was restored, they dug him up so they could 'kill' him again. That was fairly divisive

I know you could go back and forth forever here and I am not trying to directly compare him. I would just personal be very slow to remove any existing statues or place names. Obviously if there is enough public opinion for a change/removal then so be it. Cobh was originally called Queenstown for example. And these neo-nazi/white supremacists types do not do themselves any favours when all they can do is resort to violence.

Could they not do what was done in Budapest? Remove them all and put them in 1 park?

Will I Am Not

Sofiztikated wrote: »

NI Unionist in contentious flag shocker.



Yes, Cork fans used the flag because it was the rebel flag. Through their own ignorance of what the flag meant.

Should they be banned from using it? No. Should they decide to stop using it, to distance themselves from racist fuckwits? Well, that's up to them to decide.

Completely agree.

super_furry

timthumbni wrote: »

Context is everything with flags. I grew up hating the Irish flag because the only time I saw it was on Ira terrorists coffins.

Now I accept that it's simply the Irish flag. I still dislike it when it's used in a republican rally for example but know how to differentiate the two.

Same thing applies to the cork fans flying this flag. Is it stupid? Probably. Is it racist? NO... context and intent is everything...

Think it's a bit disingenuous to compare the flag of a nation to something like a confederate flag or a nazi flag - there's no positive context in which they're flown. The best argument you can make for the confederate flag comes from a place of ignorance whereby the history and associations with it aren't known.

That's a harder position to take these days when people from the Cork GAA board to Sports Against Racism Ireland are telling Cork fans that they're flying a racist flag and should stop.

super_furry

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Yes, Cork fans used the flag because it was the rebel flag. Through their own ignorance of what the flag meant.

Should they be banned from using it? No. Should they decide to stop using it, to distance themselves from racist fuckwits? Well, that's up to them to decide.

So far that's exactly what's happening. There's been no ban, people are making the fans aware of the meaning of it and telling them that they shouldn't fly the flag unless as you say, they want to be associated with racist fuckwits.

Time will tell whether or not they're happy to paint themselves as racists or they're willing to drop it.

Water John

A Cork fan at a public match is putting up something that is abhorrent to many. Are you arguing that it's his right to freedom of expression. I would argue he can wave it, all he wants but outside the grounds. He has the choice.

Korat

Water John wrote: »

A Cork fan at a public match is putting up something that is abhorrent to many. Are you arguing that it's his right to freedom of expression. I would argue he can wave it, all he wants but outside the grounds. He has the choice.

If this were Mayo or Cavan the debate would be settled once the history of the Conferedate Flag had been explained but Cork being Cork has it's own history with this flag (even through ignorance), let it go.

Cork will still be 'the Rebel' county without a hill billy cross.

A Little Pony

super_furry wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Context is everything with flags. I grew up hating the Irish flag because the only time I saw it was on Ira terrorists coffins.

Now I accept that it's simply the Irish flag. I still dislike it when it's used in a republican rally for example but know how to differentiate the two.

Same thing applies to the cork fans flying this flag. Is it stupid? Probably. Is it racist? NO... context and intent is everything...

Think it's a bit disingenuous to compare the flag of a nation to something like a confederate flag or a nazi flag - there's no positive context in which they're flown. The best argument you can make for the confederate flag comes from a place of ignorance whereby the history and associations with it aren't known.

That's a harder position to take these days when people from the Cork GAA board to Sports Against Racism Ireland are telling Cork fans that they're flying a racist flag and should stop.

The Confederacy was a nation.

nlrkjos

Water John wrote: »

A Cork fan at a public match is putting up something that is abhorrent to many. Are you arguing that it's his right to freedom of expression. I would argue he can wave it, all he wants but outside the grounds. He has the choice.

Yet it's OK for Cork and Dublin city halls (probably more towns) to fly the Palestinian flag, and the rainbow pride flag which are probably abhorrent to many. Every flag in the world will most likely offend someone, so a reality check is needed on these silly issues, can you imagine how Congolese people feel about the Belgium flag...the Olympic games must be a nightmare with the parade of flags, people dropping like flies from shock at flags that represented genocide in their different histories, I know personally the Union Jack turns my stomach, as a lot of my family fought and died for Irish Independence (two were executed). But I don't ask British warships visiting Cork to remove it

Leroy42

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't have the right, the freedom, to use the flag.

But also nobody can argue others don't have the right to call them racist and ignorant if they choose to do so.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Korat wrote: »

If this were Mayo or Cavan the debate would be settled once the history of the Conferedate Flag had been explained but Cork being Cork has it's own history with this flag (even through ignorance), let it go.

Cork will still be 'the Rebel' county without a hill billy cross.

That is an insult to the hillbillies, many of whom took the Union side and took up arms againat the planters. That's why West Virginia seceded from Virginia.

nlrkjos

Leroy42 wrote: »

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't have the right, the freedom, to use the flag.

But also nobody can argue others don't have the right to call them racist and ignorant if they choose to do so.

Correct L, but it's a little different when you have the national mediahadin slating them.