Confederate Flag

The_Valeyard

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yes. An ex got me one of those Che tshirts years ago. Never wore it. Used it as a cleaning rag.

Probably would only clean at 35% efficiently

Gravelly

kylith wrote: »

Swastika laundry predated WWII, and they stopped using the swastika when it became a symbol of the Nazi party, showing a consideration and awareness not shared by some people on this thread.

I must be even older than I feel then, because I can remember seeing it.

jimgoose

Gravelly wrote: »

I must be even older than I feel then, because I can remember seeing it.

If I understand correctly, the swastika symbol stayed on that chimney until at least 1987, when the laundry ceased operations.

Ush1

Funny thing about the whole Confederacy lost and the South were racists, here's a quote from the leader of the "good" side:

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

- Abraham Lincoln

Potatoeman

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Do you feel the same about Soviet flags?

What about Commie nazis?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jimgoose

Ush1 wrote: »

...Abraham Lincoln

Oh well. I suppose this'll just have to go as well:

The_Valeyard

Potatoeman wrote: »

What about Commie nazis?

Are they from the moon?

Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think racism was a part of it but it really was an economic war.

Same way if Trump was to suddenly ban US companies from exploiting third world labour, there would be uproar.

The_Valeyard

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

David Kincaid has a good song about the Confederate Irish brigade.

jimgoose

The_Valeyard wrote: »

David Kincaid has a good song about the Confederate Irish brigade.

The Irish green shall again be seen
as our Irish fathers bore it,
A burning wind from the South behind,
and the Yankee rout before it!
O’Neil’s red hand shall purge the land-
Rain a fire on men and cattle,
Till the Lincoln snakes in their own cold lakes
Plunge from the blaze of battle.

The_Valeyard

jimgoose wrote: »

The Irish green shall again be seen
as our Irish fathers bore it,
A burning wind from the South behind,
and the Yankee rout before it!
O’Neil’s red hand shall purge the land-
Rain a fire on men and cattle,
Till the Lincoln snakes in their own cold lakes
Plunge from the blaze of battle.

It's very catchy.

jimgoose

The_Valeyard wrote: »

It's very catchy.

'Tis. We should have used that last Sunday. :pac:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

A Little Pony

Patrick Cleburn was a fantastic Irish general for the South who many Irish people probably don't even know about.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/cleburneproposal.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cleburne

Atoms for Peace

Potatoeman wrote: »

What about Commie nazis?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism

FatherTed

You have to admit though, it's a bit funny these Cork lads flying the flag of a losing side in a war about slavery. Wouldn't you want to have a "winning" flag? Lovely colours though.

bruschi

Prickly Pete wrote: »

If they want to get rid of the confederate flag and all statues in honour of confederate leaders I assume that they will be getting rid of any statues or anything named in honour of many of the men who signed the declaration of independence seeing as a very high percentage of them owned slaves.

Washington State and Washington DC for example will surely have to be renamed very soon.

As if the Washington Redskins werent in enough bother about their team nickname, now their city name is also in bother. They may as well disband the team.

Water John

Pony, Cleburne is remembered in Ovens. There is a plaque on the house TMK.

topper75

FatherTed wrote: »

You have to admit though, it's a bit funny these Cork lads flying the flag of a losing side in a war about slavery. Wouldn't you want to have a "winning" flag? Lovely colours though.

But against Clare and Tipp it WAS a winning flag! Maybe you weren't a GAA fan at that time :-)
The stars and stripes has no connection to rebels of the south if that is the flag you are suggesting. As I said to another poster - some people just don't seem to get it.

Although for me Cork fans waving the confederate flag have as much connection with the CSA as October toy ads have to do with Christianity, some people have raised some interesting links with Ireland.

I don't know if you guys were aware of the significant and direct Limerick connection with the 'grey':
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/tait-uniforms/

Foxtrol

pickarooney wrote: »

Foxtrol wrote: »

The low end of the estimate of confederate monuments. It ranges anywhere up to 1,500.

I'm using it to show how the 'look there's one Cromwell statue somewhere and it doesn't annoy me' is a stupid comparison to attempt to make

What exactly constitutes a Confederate monument an why must there be the exact same number of statues of one individual in another country for a legitimate comparison to be made? It seems like you're doing everything to ignore a point apart from actually addressing it.

There are statues of all kinds of horrible people erected throughout the world, as well as statues of people who polarise popular opinion. What is the criteria for removing a particular statue or erecting it in the first place?

Napoleon, Rudyard Kipling, George Washington... should they not be first in line for demolition?

You are totally ignoring the systemic use of erecting these confederate monuments during specific times that black groups were fighting for equal rights (see the graph I posted earlier).

Yes, there are statues of people with 'bad' or 'debatable' history but give me a systematic example of 100s of Napoleon statues being erected in the French colonies while their people were still being repressed or Cromwell statues in Republican areas of the north during the height of the troubles or Hilter statues in Jewish areas post WW2.

Im not purposefully ignoring your point, I really don't see what point you're actually making aside from straining at attempts to make comparisons and false equivalency.

Can you give me your reasons why you think the confederate statues should stay despite democratically elected city councils voting to remove them?

InTheTrees

Prickly Pete wrote: »

InTheTrees wrote: »

What is this nonsense about washington owning slaves?

Black people in the south only achieved equal rights in the late 1960's

They were segregated before that.

The flag and the statuary were used as symbols of that bigotry and oppression.

Since the 1960's people have been trying to rid the south of those symbols.

Then if they want to get rid of symbols endorsing slavery they should want to have Washington DC renamed,Washington State etc.

You're fixated on slavery and not the civil rights struggle? Try to think beyond slavery. There's more to it.

Slavery wasn't the end of the oppression you know? They only achieved equal rights in the late 1960's

Have you heard of martin Luther king? And the civil rights marches? And segregation?

Prickly Pete

InTheTrees wrote: »

You're fixated on slavery and not the civil rights struggle? Try to think beyond slavery. There's more to it.

Slavery wasn't the end of the oppression you know? They only achieved equal rights in the late 1960's

Have you heard of martin Luther king? And the civil rights marches? And segregation?

I never said it was the end to oppression.

What I said was if they are going to get rid of things associated with slavery and remove statues because of this then they should be renaming Washington DC,Washingston state and all the other things named after people who were associated with slavery.

dermo888

Lets take an Irish equivalent. Am I going to the National Railway Museum in York, and remove the nameplate of British Rail Locomotive number 70013? Should I? Should I repaint the engine in a shade of Crimson?

Gravelly

dermo888 wrote: »

Lets take an Irish equivalent. Am I going to the National Railway Museum in York, and remove the nameplate of British Rail Locomotive number 70013? Should I? Should I repaint the engine in a shade of Crimson?

And what about all those Victorian postboxes all over Dublin? Why they are a million times worse than statues, they were probably used to send letters that got Irish people in trouble. We should form a mob immediately, requisition a few JCB's and pull these symbols of imperialist aggression from our sacred walls.

Foxtrol

Prickly Pete wrote: »

InTheTrees wrote: »

You're fixated on slavery and not the civil rights struggle? Try to think beyond slavery. There's more to it.

Slavery wasn't the end of the oppression you know? They only achieved equal rights in the late 1960's

Have you heard of martin Luther king? And the civil rights marches? And segregation?

I never said it was the end to oppression.

What I said was if they are going to get rid of things associated with slavery and remove statues because of this then they should be renaming Washington DC,Washingston state and all the other things named after people who were associated with slavery.

Another false equivalencey.

We agree that owning slaves is bad.

Fighting a civil war to keep slaves and then using these monuments as a continued tool in the oppression of a race for more than the next 100 years is on a totally different level of evil.

They simply are not the same

Prickly Pete

Foxtrol wrote: »

Another false equivalencey.

We agree that owning slaves is bad.

Fighting a civil war to keep slaves and then using these monuments as a continued tool in the oppression of a race for more than the next 100 years is on a totally different level of evil.

They simply are not the same

But naming cities after slave owners is OK.

Foxtrol

dermo888 wrote: »

Lets take an Irish equivalent. Am I going to the National Railway Museum in York, and remove the nameplate of British Rail Locomotive number 70013? Should I? Should I repaint the engine in a shade of Crimson?

Eh, there are plenty of actual Irish equivalents.

How the crazy ideas of removing the statue of Queen Victoria from the Dail or changing the name of Queenstown to Cobh? Oh wait, our 'snowflake' ancestors actually did those things and plenty more post Independence

InTheTrees

Nelsons Column too.

metaoblivia

Prickly Pete wrote: »

Then if they want to get rid of symbols endorsing slavery they should want to have Washington DC renamed,Washington State etc.

Why is one symbold of opression of black people be acceptable but apparently anotherr one isn't.

They want to get rid of statues honoring people who fought in a war to preserve the institution of slavery. The only reason Jefferson Davis gets a mention in our history books is because he was the leader of Confederacy. That is his only legacy.

George Washington did own slaves, and that is a dark mark on his legacy, as was signing the Fugitive Slave Act while he was president. But that is not his legacy. His legacy is that he led the American forces in the American Revolution - a war that his side won, by the way - and then served as the first President of the United States. Flawed though he was, his primary legacy is quite different from Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and other Confederates whose statues tarnish American towns (in large part due to the efforts of the Daughters of the Confederacy in the early half of the 20th century).

You can spend all day finding flaws for every American figure who has a statue standing. But if their primary legacy is being aligned on the losing side of the American Civil War, a war that was fought over slavery, then they aren't the people who should be honored with a statue.The Oklahoma City bombing memorial isn't a statue of Timothy McVeigh.

It's not erasing history. There wasn't a single statue of a Confederate in my Florida hometown and we still managed to learn about the Civil War. (do you know what did erase history, though? Slavery. The descendants of slaves today can only trace their family heritage back to plantations, if they're lucky. They don't know which cultural group their ancestors came from in Africa, unlike most European Americans who can trace their family histories far back into Europe. Millions of Americans have had their family heritage and culture erased thanks to slavery.)

Get rid of Confederate statues and replace them with statues celebrating the emancipation of the slaves, the leaders and generals of the North, and the leaders of the Civil Rights movement in the mid 20th century.