Confederate Flag

take everything

Interesting to read today that most of those statues were erected not around the time of their deaths. But in the 1900s, a lot of them during the civil rights movement.

So far from being a relic of another era, they are from a time well after slavery's abolition harkening back to a darker time in history.
Which is a more sinister indication of an endemic racism.

Also the descendants of these generals have come out and said they were OK with them being taken down (some suggesting a museum may be more appropriate).

Atoms for Peace

From a NY times article about General Lee:
The general did, however, object to the idea of raising Confederate monuments, writing in 1869 that it would be wiser “not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/us/robert-e-lee-slaves.html

Outlaw Pete

In the 80's I used to wear a Billy Idol confederate flag t-shirt and also used to have a poster of him with a confederate flag guitar. He's from England though and so most likely he associated it more with Lynyrd Skynyrd and southern rock than the racial politics of the region. He stopped having anything to do with it many years ago I think, made some statement renouncing it if I recall right.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

metaoblivia wrote: »

They want to get rid of statues honoring people who fought in a war to preserve the institution of slavery. The only reason Jefferson Davis gets a mention in our history books is because he was the leader of Confederacy. That is his only legacy.

George Washington did own slaves, and that is a dark mark on his legacy, as was signing the Fugitive Slave Act while he was president.

He didn't though, that came much later. EDIT: Sorry, I was wrong. He did in 1793. I was thinking of the the more controversial law passed in 1850.


He also freed all his slaves in his will and provided for their education. It seems he genuinely did come to believe that slavery was wrong.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Perhaps the Irish people who say 'It's just a flag, get over it' should go to Drumcree and tell them 'It's just a parade, get over it.'

metaoblivia

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

He didn't though, that came much later. EDIT: Sorry, I was wrong. He did in 1793. I was thinking of the the more controversial law passed in 1850.


He also freed all his slaves in his will and provided for their education. It seems he genuinely did come to believe that slavery was wrong.

He did come to believe that slavery was morally wrong, which is something many of the "George Washington had slaves, too!" crowd likes to overlook. He was the only slave-owning Founding Father to free his slaves. And years before that, he stopped selling slaves altogether so that he wouldn't break up families. This led to him having so many slaves that it was actually unprofitable. He was spending more keeping them at Mount Vernon than he was getting from their labor.

DEFTLEFTHAND

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYzAqHD1gHc

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The Stars and Bars.

The Stars and Bars was the original official confederate flag, not the design that has become more common today.

pickarooney

Foxtrol wrote: »

You are totally ignoring the systemic use of erecting these confederate monuments during specific times that black groups were fighting for equal rights (see the graph I posted earlier).

Yes, there are statues of people with 'bad' or 'debatable' history but give me a systematic example of 100s of Napoleon statues being erected in the French colonies while their people were still being repressed or Cromwell statues in Republican areas of the north during the height of the troubles or Hilter statues in Jewish areas post WW2.

Im not purposefully ignoring your point, I really don't see what point you're actually making aside from straining at attempts to make comparisons and false equivalency.

Can you give me your reasons why you think the confederate statues should stay despite democratically elected city councils voting to remove them?

Having taken the time to read up more on the issue yesterday I do now understand the difference, in that these statues were not erected to commemorate the deeds of people with chequered histories but as acts of pointed defiance/aggression.

Washington, Lincoln and even Cromwell did perform some acts worth commemorating for the people who live where their statues appear, whereas the Confederate generals are memorable for nothing positive.

I did come across some interesting subversive statues on the way, such as the ones of Stalin spitting in Arnhem and his boots in Budapest. I think a public monument deriding a villain is perhaps an even better response than removing his likeness.

mikemac2

kylith wrote: »

Swastika laundry predated WWII, and they stopped using the swastika when it became a symbol of the Nazi party, showing a consideration and awareness not shared by some people on this thread.

This was covered by Pat Kenny show this week. Founded in 1912 and they kept the name and symbol until it closed in 1987. They just added a 1912 to the name around the time of the emergency

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

Washington, Lincoln and even Cromwell did perform some acts worth commemorating for the people who live where their statues appear, whereas the Confederate generals are memorable for nothing positive.

I think some of it may be almost rooting for the underdogs, but there is a portrayal of Southern leaders as dashing, gallant, fighting huge odds against the North with all its war machinery and numbers. And succeeding in places like Bull Run and Frederiksburg, betrayed by stupidity and chance at Antietem which stopped their early success, ultimately doomed after Gettysburg when they only needed to take that hill and ended up forcing thousands of men across an open cornfield to their unavoidable death. And there is so something almost attractive about hearing a historian like Shelby Foote speak of how brave and swashbuckling generals like Nathan Bedford Forrest were. It's a bit like thinking "...but at least Rommel was a good guy, wasn't he?".

And then you think the cause was so ugly, so futile, trying to preserve a way of life that was doomed, and relied wholly on the subjugation of a race. For all the appreciation of their leadership, Lee was particularly cruel to his slaves, Stonewall Jackson was a religious fanatic, Forrest founded the KKK etc.

But for all that, my initial thoughts were the statues should be retained, after all you can't rewrite history. Until I heard that they are not being destroyed, but moved to museums. And it's hard to think of reasons why that's such a bad idea. It's not like they'll be erased from history, just removed from settings where their presence is objectionable.

Bobeagleburger

I wonder will any Cork fans continue to fly this symbol of racism. Ignorance can't be used for an excuse after all the coverage it's getting.

DEFTLEFTHAND

RoboKlopp wrote: »

I wonder will any Cork fans continue to fly this symbol of racism. Ignorance can't be used for an excuse after all the coverage it's getting.

Expose your mind to intellectual diversity.

Seriously man, do you form every opinion from agenda driven media. How about studying objective primary sources.

Bobeagleburger

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Expose your mind to intellectual diversity.

Seriously man, do you form every opinion from agenda driven media. How about studying objective primary sources.

?

It's pretty clear cut. Cork GAA don't want anything to do with it.

maninasia

Most of those statues were out up during the Jim Crow era . They should be removed.

Will I Am Not

I say this purely on the basis of flying in the face of the current PC outrage brigade.
I hope the Cork fans keep flying it. They are not flying it for racist reasons. This is not the USA. The only reason it's such a big issue now is because of what's going on over there at the moment.

I abhor racism and the idea of slavery is absolutely disgusting, but if I was a Cork fan I'd nearly fly one on my house just to make a point.
The only thing that would stop me is the chances of people who don't know anything about me making it their mission to ruin my life and see me unemployed because that's the way the world works now.

Korat

It's kinda funny seeing proudly Irish Catholics flying (seen them at Cork Gaa games) or wearing them.

More embarrassing really.

A bit like Asians dressing up in Nazi gear.

maninasia

But it IS directly connected with slavery.
Very much so.

Bobeagleburger

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

I say this purely on the basis of flying in the face of the current PC outrage brigade.
I hope the Cork fans keep flying it. They are not flying it for racist reasons. This is not the USA. The only reason it's such a big issue now is because of what's going on over there at the moment.

I abhor racism and the idea of slavery is absolutely disgusting, but if I was a Cork fan I'd nearly fly one on my house just to make a point.
The only thing that would stop me is the chances of people who don't know anything about me making it their mission to ruin my life and see me unemployed because that's the way the world works now.

Great logic.

How about a red and white swastika. It isn't Germany.

Will I Am Not

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Great logic.

How about a red and white swastika. It isn't Germany.

We're you outraged at the Cork fans flying this flag last year? The year before? 5 years ago?

kylith

mikemac2 wrote: »

This was covered by Pat Kenny show this week. Founded in 1912 and they kept the name and symbol until it closed in 1987. They just added a 1912 to the name around the time of the emergency

Thanks for that, I was obviously misinformed.

Bobeagleburger

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

We're you outraged at the Cork fans flying this flag last year? The year before? 5 years ago?

Didn't realise there were people so backward to fly such flags. They don't represent Cork people as a whole. Fly it from their own home all they want. See how they get on.

You didn't answer my question BTW, just predictably sidestepped it.

super_furry

When it comes to the Confederate Flag, I agree 100% with Donald Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goy_L4lj9B4

Will I Am Not

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Didn't realise there were people so backward to fly such flags.

You didn't answer my question BTW, just predictably sidestepped it.

Predictably?

I didn't answer because it's a dumb comparison on your part.

Korat

The Imperial Japanese flag is another one and becoming more offensive as Ireland gets more connected to East Asia.

It's tough to wake up one day and realise you're causing offence to vistors but we'd complain loudly if any country didn't respect our sensitivities.

Bobeagleburger

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Predictably?

I didn't answer because it's a dumb comparison on your part.

I didn't expect you to tbh.

It's a fair comparison. Both flags represent racism and are non Cork.

Leroy42

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

I say this purely on the basis of flying in the face of the current PC outrage brigade.
I hope the Cork fans keep flying it. They are not flying it for racist reasons. This is not the USA. The only reason it's such a big issue now is because of what's going on over there at the moment.

I abhor racism and the idea of slavery is absolutely disgusting, but if I was a Cork fan I'd nearly fly one on my house just to make a point.
The only thing that would stop me is the chances of people who don't know anything about me making it their mission to ruin my life and see me unemployed because that's the way the world works now.

Why do you think they use the flag then? You claim it isn't racist, so what it the reason for choosing this flag over the multitude of other red/white flags they could use.

And it is a choice. A person seeks out the flag, brings it to the game and stands under it. There is a thought process behind it and you seem very certain what it isn't.

It is not only an issue now, for blacks and other minorities living in those places it is always an issue but it has become more highlighted due to the recent events. The fact that it was overlooked to this point doesn't make it right

You say that you are against slavery etc yet you are happy for one of the main symbls of slavery in the western world to be displayed in our national stadium during our national game? The Irish, the GAA, should be well aware of the devastating effects that a collonial power can have on a population when they treat them are inferior. When they make laws that actively deny them their rights.

Everyone knows what the flag stands for. True its just a flag, but over time, like the Nazi symbol etc, they take on very specific connotations. You say you would put it outside your house save for people who don't know you making assumptions about you and making your life difficult. Imagine that. Imagine people taking one aspect of you and using it to make your life difficult. Instead of flag, which lucky for you you have a choice over, imagine you lived in a time or place where the colour of your skin was treated the same.

the flag that you want to fly outside your house is the symbol for the movement that wants, and did, treat people like that.

You will have people like you, and Cork fans, complaning that this is their right to carry the flag. Totally missing the point that the flag represents taking away peoples rights.

super_furry

Korat wrote: »

The Imperial Japanese flag is another one and becoming more offensive as Ireland gets more connected to East Asia.

It's tough to wake up one day and realise you're causing offence to vistors but we'd complain loudly if any country didn't respect our sensitivities.

For me, particularly when it comes to the Cork GAA supporters, it's simple. How would a young black Cork fan or player feel if they look up and see that flag flying?

Bobeagleburger

super_furry wrote: »

For me, particularly when it comes to the Cork GAA supporters, it's simple. How would a young black Cork fan or player feel if they look up and see that flag flying?

Exactly

timthumbni

super_furry wrote: »

For me, particularly when it comes to the Cork GAA supporters, it's simple. How would a young black Cork fan or player feel if they look up and see that flag flying?

Good perhaps as it reminded them of daisy duke and her short shorts in the Dukes of Hazard???????