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''Leader's'' Debate - TV3 - 8.00PM

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    #482
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    K_user wrote: »
    Really?

    The two main oppositions to FF are FG and Labour.

    Last night MM tore a hole through Labours policies and their "need" to please the people for votes.

    FG's leader hid in the bushes and has already made one major gaff over the whole European bail out thing.

    Its easy to vote for style when there seems to be no substance available...

    Holes have been torn through Labours policies for months now everytime they engage with anyone. A matter of fact, very little was said about Labours policies last night apart from them flip flopping the whole time.

    You can say Enda hid in the bushes or you can say he gave two fingers to the media by not bowing to their demands.

    My fear is that people would have viewed the debate last night, saw that MM won and decide to cast their vote for FF.
    MM could very well have beaten EK in a debate, but that doesn't mean their policies are any better or the country will be any better - just that MM is better at convincing people that he is right (again, think Jim Jones).


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    #483
    COUCH WARRIOR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭COUCH WARRIOR


    SB-08 wrote: »
    ... Martin surprised us by attacking and it took Gilmore by surprise...

    I seen this point made a few time times on the tread. I'm surprised that anyone is surprised that Martin went on the attack.

    I've never been impressed by Gilmore and he showed why again this evening.

    He failed to win this debate which should have been a cakewalk by failing to debate. All he does is repeat the same old talking points over and over. It's as though he hasn't the intelect to react to the point been made and come up with a suitable retort.

    VB will eviscerate him, if he decides to go for him. Gilmore won't be able to cry sexism like Burton did.


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    #484
    K_user
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    MaceFace wrote: »
    You can say Enda hid in the bushes or you can say he gave two fingers to the media by not bowing to their demands.
    No, what Enda and FG did was play it safe.

    They believe that they are going to be the next Government of Ireland, thanks to the general level of public unrest with FF. Anything that Kenny says publicly will only hurt them from now on. Silence is the best policy.

    Last night was Endas night. For the past number of years all the man has done is complain and b*tch about FF. It was time for him to step up to the mark and prove his point. But he didn't. Large open goal and he hid in the locker room where it was safe.

    Is this how the Government of Ireland should be decided?

    How will Enda cope if he's in charge of the country and the IMF come knocking to have a chat? Will he tell them that he has a previous engagement with a tidy towns committee in Louth?


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    #485
    K_user
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    And just to point out, had it been MM that refused to show up, then there would have been a public out cry for his head. The same people defending Kenny would have started screaming "I told you so, I told you so, I told you so"...


    Again a small, but important point.


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    #486
    Dai John
    Registered Users Posts: 218 ✭✭Dai John


    According to Ireland am this morning Martin scored twice as much as Gilmore. But remember, Martin was part of the old gang that put us here, and a conman has to sound good to make a living.


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    #487
    alphasun
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭alphasun


    Bejabers, Enda never put a foot wrong!


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    #488
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's a pretty poor reflection on Gilmore sadly.
    He was useless.

    Martin had him sized up as a populist worse than Bertie.
    He nailed him on taxes and on the extra borrowing and thats all he needed to do.

    As for Kenny,I think I heard a commentator sum up his position in that we all expect him to be terrible on TV and thats already discounted in the polls.
    It's why FG are in the low to mid 30's instead of the low to mid 40's.


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    #489
    K_user
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    alphasun wrote: »
    Bejabers, Enda never put a foot wrong!
    He never put a foot in the door! :D;)


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    #490
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 85,403 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    I only watched part of it and tbh I thought it was crap

    Did Martin ever acknowledge and apologise for what him and his party did?
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #491
    jacool
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭jacool


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Martin had him sized up as a populist worse than Bertie.
    And yet Micheál Martin worshipped the little Drumcondra man for years. Does he secretly worship Gilmore now?


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    #492
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As for Kenny,I think I heard a commentator sum up his position in that we all expect him to be terrible on TV and thats already discounted in the polls.
    It's why FG are in the low to mid 30's instead of the low to mid 40's.

    So basically, its a core FG vote?

    I'm not sure, he still has to face 2 debates so could lose more support, unlikely as that is with Gilmore and FF as the other leaders!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #493
    K_user
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    I only watched part of it and tbh I thought it was crap

    Did Martin ever acknowledge and apologise for what him and his party did?
    Did the banks or the developers or everyone who ran up ridiculous amounts of credit debt?

    Apologising would lead to a media frenzy. People would start demanding to know EXACTLY what they were apologising for. And if they didn't like the answer then there would be an outcry.

    When people are looking for blood, show strength.


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    #494
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    K_user wrote: »
    No, what Enda and FG did was play it safe.

    They believe that they are going to be the next Government of Ireland, thanks to the general level of public unrest with FF. Anything that Kenny says publicly will only hurt them from now on. Silence is the best policy.

    Last night was Endas night. For the past number of years all the man has done is complain and b*tch about FF. It was time for him to step up to the mark and prove his point. But he didn't. Large open goal and he hid in the locker room where it was safe.

    Is this how the Government of Ireland should be decided?

    How will Enda cope if he's in charge of the country and the IMF come knocking to have a chat? Will he tell them that he has a previous engagement with a tidy towns committee in Louth?

    Gilmore had a large open goal in front of him last night and failed because the opponent was a much better debater. His constant attack on Labour kept Gilmore on the defensive. Gilmore was not capable of dealing with this approach and thus failed.
    It is very possible that the same would have become EK last night. If he did turn up and MM was adjudged to have won the debate, it could have damaged FG in the polls.
    As it was, MM done great damage to the idea of Gilmore for Taoiseach and as a result Enda benefited.

    Lets see if the polls show if Enda benefited from not turning up.
    K_user wrote: »
    And just to point out, had it been MM that refused to show up, then there would have been a public out cry for his head. The same people defending Kenny would have started screaming "I told you so, I told you so, I told you so"...


    Again a small, but important point.

    I don't think the public would have cared - it would have been the media and the FF supporters doing the complaining.
    MM has nothing to lose by engaging the opposition - his party is already at historic lows, they have no chane of leading the next government, and there is a belief that their support can not go any lower. It would be foolish for MM not to turn up.
    I don't think the vast majority of the public have any interest in listening to what FF have to say at this point.
    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    I only watched part of it and tbh I thought it was crap

    Did Martin ever acknowledge and apologise for what him and his party did?

    I agree - I think it was the annoraks that thought it was great.
    The only thing I learned from last night is Gilmore is definitely not up to the job. In particular his debate about Honahans report was very poor. He replied to Martin that it was not "exactly what Honohan had said", but never clarified for the viewer what the actual advise from Honahan was.


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    #495
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    thought martin was better not from being a better debater but from having a better understanding of whats going on and needs to be done. Thought gilmore went out to try to appear more statesmanly then he normally does and dropped the ball on being prepared for the actual issues


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    #496
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    K_user wrote: »
    Last night MM tore a hole through Labours policies and their "need" to please the people for votes.

    Given where FF are in the polls and the fact that they ruined the country, Martin knows he can't "please" enough people, and therefore factored that into his performance.

    If FF had a fighting chance, then Martin would have been just as - to coin a word that has taken on a snide meaning - "populist".


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    #497
    K_user
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Given where FF are in the polls and the fact that they ruined the country, Martin knows he can't "please" enough people, and therefore factored that into his performance.

    If FF had a fighting chance, then Martin would have been just as - to coin a word that has taken on a snide meaning - "populist".
    I'd completely agree.

    I've said it already, not sure in which thread though, politicians are all about being "populist".


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    #498
    stee.mc79
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭stee.mc79


    I don't think poitics matters to anyone anymore, asked the lads In work did they watch the debate last night, all I may as well have asked them how ISAC finished y.day.
    The main thing they do know is that 1 as corrupt as the other, and know not to vote FF. As for the other parties I don't think there doing enough to get through to these types of voters. This is where this election campaign is going to be won or lost. Not by tv debates. So neither party has won or lost.
    Also I havent had 1 campaigner call to my door telling me what there about where there party is going to leed this country so I myself am none the wiser! Of which way to vote and who's more likely to keep there empty promises.


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    #499
    K_user
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    stee.mc79 wrote: »
    I don't think poitics matters to anyone anymore, asked the lads In work did they watch the debate last night, all I may as well have asked them how ISAC finished y.day.
    Thats sad.
    stee.mc79 wrote: »
    The main thing they do know is that 1 as corrupt as the other, and know not to vote FF.
    And thats sad too. They need to know what they are not voting for, else we all fall into the same trap.


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    #500
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    stee.mc79 wrote: »
    I don't think poitics matters to anyone anymore, asked the lads In work did they watch the debate last night, all I may as well have asked them how ISAC finished y.day.
    The main thing they do know is that 1 as corrupt as the other, and know not to vote FF. As for the other parties I don't think there doing enough to get through to these types of voters. This is where this election campaign is going to be won or lost. Not by tv debates. So neither party has won or lost.
    Also I havent had 1 campaigner call to my door telling me what there about where there party is going to leed this country so I myself am none the wiser! Of which way to vote and who's more likely to keep there empty promises.

    Are you ever going to get through to these types of voters? Interest in politics is something YOU show, and you act on it by seeking out information. You think after the years of FF fvcking this country that we'd all be showing a little bit more interest in what our parties stand for rather than expect to be spoonfed while we sit on the couch. People need to take responsibility for their vote and educate themselves.


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    #501
    stee.mc79
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭stee.mc79


    K_user wrote: »
    Thats sad.


    And thats sad too. They need to know what they are not voting for, else we all fall into the same trap.
    I think it's sad to that's the way it is at the moment, the political leaders are hardly inspiring ether Are they?

    Laminations wrote: »
    Are you ever going to get through to these types of voters? Interest in politics is something YOU show, and you act on it by seeking out information. You think after the years of FF fvcking this country that we'd all be showing a little bit more interest in what our parties stand for rather than expect to be spoonfed while we sit on the couch. People need to take responsibility for their vote and educate themselves.
    That's the problem is trying to get people to show interest anymore. As I said above it's up to the leaders to build confidence in the voting public, none of which they have done


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    #502
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    K-9 wrote: »
    So basically, its a core FG vote?

    I'm not sure, he still has to face 2 debates so could lose more support, unlikely as that is with Gilmore and FF as the other leaders!
    No it reflects the element that would not vote for FG with Kenny as leader or at least they say they won't.
    The election will be very interesting as in the cold light of the election booth with the pencil in hand,hopefully they will give him a chance.
    Better than giving a vote to the crowd of chancers we are about to sack.


    I like Kenny.
    I know he's terrible on Tv,I've gotten over that fact.
    I think his front bench team at the moment is excelent.
    I hope they get the chance to live up to expectations and that they don't let us down.
    I'd trust Vradkar and Noonan with anything.
    I couldn't stand Dr Reilly but ironically having seen him recently on the VB show I was impressed.
    Watching him further I'm more impressed.
    I don't think he's going to get his dutch model health system if labour have too big a say but then thats coalition for you.

    Kenny will be on two 3 way debates and a five way.
    If the RTE 3 way is done on the front line like the finance one this week,it will be very very good compared to the tv3 format.


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    #503
    stee.mc79
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭stee.mc79


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Kenny will be on two 3 way debates and a five way.
    If the RTE 3 way is done on the front line like the finance one this week,it will be very very good compared to the tv3 format.

    I still think as a political leader of 1of the main parties he should have been on the debate, what's going to happen if he dose become leader of the country and he dose not like the way things are going is he going to run off and hide and hope it's going to go away! We had that with brain cowen.
    He should have put all feelings aside for VB and shown what he was about.


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    #504
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    stee.mc79 wrote: »
    I still think as a political leader of 1of the main parties he should have been on the debate, what's going to happen if he dose become leader of the country and he dose not like the way things are going is he going to run off and hide and hope it's going to go away! We had that with brain cowen.
    He should have put all feelings aside for VB and shown what he was about.

    Kenny performs best when he's not present. Fact.


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    #505
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Here's two hours of Kenny for those missing him so much.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0209/election_tracker.html#video

    The first video is the heckler of course.
    Another vid below that is the actual meeting.


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    #506
    Sizzler
    Registered Users Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭Sizzler


    I have to say that I have (stupidly) voted FF in the past but will NEVER vote for them again in my lifetime, I dont care if they offer every voter a ton in gold bullion.......but as much as it pains me to say it Martin left Gilmore punch drunk last night.

    Gilmore lacked all the "C's" -

    1 - Composure. None. He looked scared and quiet frankly out of his depth.

    2 - Clarity. He waffled his way through the opening gambit, very unsure and apart from the "great country" comment there was very little I could have taken as a straighforward message from his speech.

    3 - Competantcy. He was far from competant and the constant rebuffs from Martin made his policies look about as stable as Anglo Irish.

    It was blatantly clear imho that Labour have done nothing more than become "en vogue" because they have shot holes in FF's mess ups, a feat which could have been managed by a Junior Cert business studies student, last night outed them for nothing more populist politics with a view to simpy just getting in.

    Its like warren buffett is quoted as saying " When the tide goes out, you soon find out who has no swimming trunks on". Last night Gilmore was the man without the trunks.........


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    #507
    JohnfromGalway
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭JohnfromGalway


    Enda Kenny was the big winner yesterday.

    Gilmore proved he doesn't have the gravitas & Martin only proved he had the same brass neck & detachment from reality as Cowen and Bertie.

    Kenny looked statesmanlike by his absence from the political point-scoring theatre that was the TV3 studio.


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    #508
    scr123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭scr123


    Excellent debate by two politicians well versed in all topics raised. Not to take away from Gilmore I believe Martin shaded it because of long experience in government and dealing with crises. Would say it was the best political debate I have ever seen on tv here in Ireland. Kenny did us all a favour by staying away and hopefully FG will get the message and keep him away from tv studios for the remainder of the campaign. FF have not a hope of coming to government this month so its certain Kenny will be Taoiseach. The important thing is that FG again get the message and make sure Kenny is removed within 6 months, earlier if possible


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    #509
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    I was very disappointed with E Gilmore last night. The way he dealt with current ministers taking the golden handshakes was unbelievable. P Rabbitte is vastly superior imo


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    #510
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    What viewers did it get?


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    #511
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    What viewers did it get?

    450k for the whole thing spiking to up to 1 million at times . . This suggests that FG didnt have their finger on the pulse and that many people are finally starting to realise how important it is to get involved (in anyway) in politics.

    Have to laugh/desair at people who say "sure nobodys interested in politics. Prob the same people who will be the first to moan about the bank bailout or the "corrupt politicians" without little clue that their ignorance on who runs our country played a very big part of the problems we face.

    Kenny knows he has more to lose by going on debates. My problem is that I am actually quite happy to have him as our next leader, I am just very dissapointed that FG are quite happy to engage in the same kind of political posturing that FF get so much abuse (rightly) for, by doing what is more important for their party then what is right/fair for the people of Ireland.

    In truth, it looks like we are going to get much of the same kind of political BS whoever is in power. The very fact that FF have left such a mess means that the inadequacies of the incoming government will not be seen until at least 2 years into their stint.

    Reducing the Taoiseachs wage is a small start but nowhere near scratches the surface of what true political reform is required. If there was nothing else but the phrase "ACCOUNTABILITY" brought into Irish Politics (and the public service) we would already be making good inroads to encourage a morally superior public body. Sure, it doesnt solve everything, but its a great start.

    For example a certain senator who broke the rules and still managed to be "vindicated" let off simply by the manner in which he was disciplined. In these cases it makes far more sense to continue the inquest on whether or not they were guilty and only if it transpires they were innocent, should any talk of damages be even considered.

    People in public service positions (particularly higher ones with bonus) should be held accountable for underperformance or negligence. We have seen ridiculous payoffs of people who's apparant iron clad contracts meant they still had to get paid for clearly not performing their duties properly.


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