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Army looking for extra payment

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13567…12

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    #62
    PJMCKE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭PJMCKE


    Hypothetically if your boss told you that you had to work overtime, and that overtime is usually paid, say you did the overtime and he said that you were not getting paid, what would you do?

    .[/QUOTE]


    I think the point was missed here. Overtime is expected and any payment is also gone as will the business in 6 months if it does not improve.

    I dont want to grip at individuals as i would have had the exact same reply if i was momentarily or immeaditely put in that situation (overtime and no payment) but almost 2 years of this and payment for overtime is something you would not ask for as it might just put you in the radar for further staff cuts.


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    #63
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    davetherave wrote: »
    The terms nail, head and hammer spring to mind.
    Unfortunately there appears to be a belief in this country that the DF do nothing more than sit in a barracks and waste good taxpayer money.


    I know, its a shame alright.

    We seem to be constantly berated lately, sure I was even abused on the street while shovelling snow, I dont mind because thats part of my job, im a soldier.

    I joined incase I was needed to defend my country, its fairly evident that i will never need to (thankfully). In the mean time I will continue soaking up tax payers money and being a burden on society.

    My question is:

    Where were all the long term able bodied dole recipients? surely they could be out earning their dole, the dole that I as a tax payer am providing?


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    #64
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    benwavner wrote: »
    I agree shovelling snow is not high risk work. The Russian Army has the manpower, equipment and experience to deal with their weather. Your comparison is irrelevant.

    The point is that it was the councils job to get rid of the snow and ice and some didnt do it. In fact, when certain members of the DF liased with a local council, the council refused to go out because of health & safety. So we asked for their salt and we were refused under the premise that "oh no we cant give you the salt, its our job to spread it...but we are not doing it". So the paths were cleared but it was futile because they were not salted.

    We were called out under an ATCP role which incurrs an allowance. simples.

    I hear you, they are fuking idiots. took a long time for local councils to allow local volunteers and farmers with machinery to make their own roads safe as the council werent doing anything, they had salt sitting there but nobody to spread it because of rules and regulations. it makes absolutely no sense, what about 'health and safety' of people using the dangerous untreated roads?


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    #65
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    PJMCKE wrote: »
    Hypothetically if your boss told you that you had to work overtime, and that overtime is usually paid, say you did the overtime and he said that you were not getting paid, what would you do?

    .


    I think the point was missed here. Overtime is expected and any payment is also gone as will the business in 6 months if it does not improve.

    I dont want to grip at individuals as i would have had the exact same reply if i was momentarily or immeaditely put in that situation (overtime and no payment) but almost 2 years of this and payment for overtime is something you would not ask for as it might just put you in the radar for further staff cuts.[/QUOTE]


    I agree with your point but the circumstances are different.

    Im sorry to hear about your situation and I acknowledge that the DF looking for "bonus's" seems outlandish from your side of the fence.

    Just to clarify, I was one of the many on standby, on call and performing the ATCP duty. The only reason I heard about receiving this allowance was from this discussion board. I doubt it will go ahead and I personally will not be pushing or expecting it. As far as Im concerned, the duty is over, its in the past, forget about it.


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    #66
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,630 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    benwavner wrote: »
    You are quickly losing all credibility with me.

    Your posts are very simplistic and it is very evident that you do not know what you are talking about.

    perhaps you can not hear me properly


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    #67
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    benwavner wrote: »
    ....Are you trying to tell me that if you worked outside normal hours that you would not get overtime?

    Yes.

    Thats pretty normal in many industries.


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    #68
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    BostonB wrote: »
    Yes.

    Thats pretty normal in many industries.


    Yes thats true, and so is getting an allowance that is due to a specific duty.


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    #69
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    benwavner wrote: »
    Yes thats true, and so is getting an allowance that is due to a specific duty.

    were the soldiers notified of allowance before going on duty?


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    #70
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    pmcmahon wrote: »
    were the soldiers notified of allowance before going on duty?


    I couldnt say to be honest, I know I wasnt. Its not something we were particularly thinking about. But it stands to reason that when carrying out an ATCP duty that you should get paid the ATCP allowance that comes with it.


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    #71
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    thebaz wrote: »
    perhaps you can not hear me properly

    I'm "hearing you" fine.

    To be honest, you seem to have a problem with the Irish Defence Forces not being deployed to a warzone and you seem to suggest that our troops would not put their life on the line in combat, thus our wages should be reduced in line with other countries.

    Its hard to have a conversation with someone of your logic. Are you prepared to tell me your profession so I can pick at any flaws which you are not responsible for?


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    #72
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    benwavner wrote: »
    I couldnt say to be honest, I know I wasnt. Its not something we were particularly thinking about. But it stands to reason that when carrying out an ATCP duty that you should get paid the ATCP allowance that comes with it.

    well since it stands up to ATCP the forces should be entitled,but i can see it coming down to a national voluntary duty stance or they'll probably play the training and organisation card


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    #73
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    benwavner wrote: »
    Yes thats true, and so is getting an allowance that is due to a specific duty.

    If its "true" why did you ask as it was unusual? Backtracking IMO.

    It may be due, but the country can no longer afford it. Like Banks and bonus'es. Its a PR own goal tbh.


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    #74
    Perkina3
    Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Perkina3


    thebaz wrote: »
    perhaps you can not hear me properly


    No no...we heard you quite well cheers... The problem with your answers is there is no logic or sense to them... You were ranting on about army deafness claims with no clear point. Please leave the adults to talk bout something like this if you are just going to continue your non sensical ramblings.

    Now as for the other point. There IS an ATCP allowance. Whether it gets issued or not is another point. Personally I do think if its due its due..... I don't think that an extra 100k is going to kill the economy and anyway... Unfortunately, the money is more than likely going to come from the existing DF budget at the expense of items of equipment or ammunition etc.....


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    #75
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,630 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    benwavner wrote: »
    I'm "hearing you" fine.

    To be honest, you seem to have a problem with the Irish Defence Forces not being deployed to a warzone and you seem to suggest that our troops would not put their life on the line in combat, thus our wages should be reduced in line with other countries.

    Its hard to have a conversation with someone of your logic. Are you prepared to tell me your profession so I can pick at any flaws which you are not responsible for?
    it just galls me that when our army goes out to do a good service in extreme weather , to help the less fortunate - they immediately start looking for textra compensation from the state. After the whole loss of hearing compensation claims , I guess we get the Army we deserve as a Nation


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    #76
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    BostonB wrote: »
    If its "true" why did you ask as it was unusual? Backtracking IMO.

    It may be due, but the country can no longer afford it. Like Banks and bonus'es. Its a PR own goal tbh.


    Thats my point, its not unusual. I have previously worked in the private sector and I am surrounded by peers, friends and family who work in the private sector who regularly get paid overtime for working overtime

    We do not get paid overtime. We performed an ATCP duty and may be entitled to an ATCP allowance. If it was job specific we would not be entitled to an allowance. Its that simple, no conspiracies, no underhand tactics.

    Dont allign me with bankers or bonuses. That is not whats going on here.


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    #77
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    Could someone point out to me where it states that this payment is an 'entitlement' and that the government are legally obliged to pay it. The very fact that it isn't being paid automatically and that there seems to some confusion suggests to me that it's not quite what the union and the soldiers here are implying.
    The article itself states that it's discretionary so IMO the government should use their discretion and tell them to GTFO.


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    #78
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,630 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Perkina3 wrote: »
    No no...we heard you quite well cheers... The problem with your answers is there is no logic or sense to them... You were ranting on about army deafness claims with no clear point. Please leave the adults to talk bout something like this if you are just going to continue your non sensical ramblings.

    ..

    maybe no logic to yourselves , but i'm sure the Afghan , U.S. , U.K. Turkish, Korean armies might be interested in your grievances

    May I ask what function/role does the Irish army provide to the state today ?

    perhaps , tackling urban gang related crime ?


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    #79
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    latenia wrote: »
    Could someone point out to me where it states that this payment is an 'entitlement' and that the government are legally obliged to pay it. The very fact that it isn't being paid automatically and that there seems to some confusion suggests to me that it's not quite what the union and the soldiers here are implying.
    The article itself states that it's discretionary so IMO the government should use their discretion and tell them to GTFO.

    the point is that the irish armed forces worked hard and helped out alot of people during the snow,if it wasn't for some of the irish soldiers then alot of elderly would have gone days without food and some roads would've been impassable,i feel it's up to the government to reward them with their regular SMALL entitlement


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    #80
    Perkina3
    Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Perkina3


    thebaz wrote: »
    maybe no logic to yourselves , but i'm sure the Afghan , U.S. , U.K. Turkish, Korean armies might be interested in your grievances

    Off topic and won't be answering to you again.... but what the hell has this got to do with anything?


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    #81
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    thebaz wrote: »
    it just galls me that when our army goes out to do a good service in extreme weather , to help the less fortunate - they immediately start looking for textra compensation from the state. After the whole loss of hearing compensation claims , I guess we get the Army we deserve as a Nation


    Ok opinion are opinions but you are really starting to annoy me.

    This is NOT a COMPENSATION CLAIM or a GOOD DEED

    This is what happened, please pay attention to facts and not your opinion.

    Step 1 - The GS, HSE, city/county councils request assistance from the DF

    Step 2 - The request for assistance comes in and is prioitised

    Step 3 - Troops are mobilised as Aid to The Civil Power (ATCP)

    Step 4 - ATCP is completed and troops may be entitled to ATCP allowance.

    End of.


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    #82
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    Perkina3 wrote: »
    Off topic and won't be answering to you again.... but what the hell has this got to do with anything?

    because you seem to be only happy if your lads getting paid if they are out getting the shít blown out of them


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    #83
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    benwavner wrote: »
    Thats my point, its not unusual. I have previously worked in the private sector and I am surrounded by peers, friends and family who work in the private sector who regularly get paid overtime for working overtime

    What someone else gets paid is irrelevant. If you want their pay, get the same job in the same sector.
    benwavner wrote: »
    We do not get paid overtime. We performed an ATCP duty and may be entitled to an ATCP allowance. If it was job specific we would not be entitled to an allowance. Its that simple, no conspiracies, no underhand tactics.

    You asked about overtime not me. Doesn't matter if its valid, due, or earned. Thats also irrelevant. The question is can the country afford it, and are your employers willing and able to pay.
    benwavner wrote: »
    Dont allign me with bankers or bonuses. That is not whats going on here.

    Unfortunately that is likely, how it will be perceived. Don't shoot the messenger.


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    #84
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    thebaz wrote: »
    maybe no logic to yourselves , but i'm sure the Afghan , U.S. , U.K. Turkish, Korean armies might be interested in your grievances

    May I ask what function/role does the Irish army provide to the state today ?

    perhaps , tackling urban gang related crime ?


    Holy Moly,

    Why dont you go and be logical with the above armed forces instead of being illogical here! We are discussing the IRISH Defence Force, no other foreign force.

    http://www.military.ie/dfhq/overview/role/index.htm

    The above link will provide any more questions you may have.


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    #85
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    benwavner wrote: »
    ...
    Step 4 - ATCP is completed and troops may be entitled to ATCP allowance.
    ...

    Perhaps people feel those allowances need to be looked at again, to see if they are appropriate in the current economic climate.


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    #86
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,630 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Perkina3 wrote: »
    Off topic and won't be answering to you again.... but what the hell has this got to do with anything?


    basically that the package that the Irish soldier gets in comparison to those other countries, which have a much higher fatality risk , is pretty damn good.

    so less of the hostile feedback please


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    #87
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    BostonB wrote: »
    What someone else gets paid is irrelevant. If you want their pay, get the same job in the same sector.



    You asked about overtime not me. Doesn't matter if its valid, due, or earned. Thats also irrelevant. The question is can the country afford it, and are your employers willing and able to pay.



    Unfortunately that is likely, how it will be perceived. Don't shoot the messenger.



    I have NO INTEREST in anyone elses pay, I was asking a question to relate to other peoples jobs.

    Whether an allowance is earned, due or warranted IS relevant. Just because you feel it is not doesnt matter.

    If this money is paid it will not be coming out of the public purse, most likely it will be coming out of the existing defence budget which means we lose out on equipment or something else.


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    #88
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    benwavner wrote: »
    I was even abused on the street while shovelling snow, I dont mind because thats part of my job, im a soldier.


    No way should that have happened.

    I work in sales and have to put up with crap and I imagine I am not the only one.

    I did find it weird how few shopkeepers swept away snow or householders swept their paths ouside their homes.If everyone did a little bit.

    I salted mine but I was one of a few.

    I also fed the birdies.:cool:


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    #89
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    thebaz wrote: »
    basically that the package that the Irish soldier gets in comparison to those other countries, which have a much higher fatality risk , is pretty damn good.

    so less of the hostile feedback please


    Is that your long running point? If so I agree, once again, we are a DEFENCE FORCE not a conventional war mongering military superpower, hence why we dont go to war.

    We still have the possibility of getting killed on peacekeeping duties.


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    #90
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    BostonB wrote: »
    Perhaps people feel those allowances need to be looked at again, to see if they are appropriate in the current economic climate.


    Do you understand these allowances?

    Are you aware of all the other allowances in the Public Sector?

    I understand what you are saying and I do agree what you are saying. However, only in the context that ALL PS organisations allowances need to be looked at and perhaps changed.

    But the ATCP allowance may not be subject to change. The likes of mobile phone allowance, accommodation allowance for TD's etc needs to go first, these are the real tax absorbers.

    We were requested in an ATCP role and we provided the service and thus may be entitled to the allowance. I do say "may".


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    #91
    davetherave
    Registered Users Posts: 3,366 ✭✭✭davetherave


    latenia wrote: »
    Could someone point out to me where it states that this payment is an 'entitlement' and that the government are legally obliged to pay it. The very fact that it isn't being paid automatically and that there seems to some confusion suggests to me that it's not quite what the union and the soldiers here are implying.
    The article itself states that it's discretionary so IMO the government should use their discretion and tell them to GTFO.

    My understanding is that the issue over payment is for troops who were ordered into barracks on standby but not actually out clearing paths or driving buses/nissans etc.


    The money will be coming out of the defence budget so it's not like it's costing the taxpayer any more.


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