Army looking for extra payment

Poccington

delancey42 wrote: »

The demand for additional payment is a perfect illustration of why the Irish Defence Forces are held in such low esteem by the public .

I query if soldiers should be used to clear snow and ice - they might get hit by snowballs and lodge huge compensation claims , the Recruiting Slogan for the army should be '' Join the Army and gouge the Taxpayer ''

Can you please explain, how troops on ACA duties, over a duration of 24 hours, while based in barracks for those 24 hours, don't qualify for the ACA Allowance?

Of course, you're dead right that soldiers shouldn't be out clearing snow. The council workers who are paid to do the job should be doing it.

I don't quite see how I gouge the taxpayer, would you like to explain to me how I do so?

Poccington

Dempo1 wrote: »

One compliment i am Glad to offer the PDF is it's Chef's, some of the best i have worked with!

They must be keeping their skills hidden in work so, cause I'm convinced that they're trying to poison me any time I've to eat Army food!

Delancey

Poccington wrote: »

I don't quite see how I gouge the taxpayer, would you like to explain to me how I do so?

I never said you or any specific individual ' gouged ' the taxpayer , when I speak of the taxpayer getting screwed I refer to the compensation culture that seems widespread in the army - it started with the deafness nonsense which in my opinion has done lasting damage to the image and reputation of the army.
This now extends to soldiers claiming for damages because they were exposed to danger serving overseas or saw disturbing things.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that soldiers from time to time can expect to be in such situations , as intelligent people they know what they are doing when they sign up to join or more to the point when they volunteer to serve overseas.

Whats next ? Suing for repetitive strain injury caused by parade ground foot drill ?

arybvtcw0eolkf

delancey42 wrote: »

I never said you or any specific individual ' gouged ' the taxpayer , when I speak of the taxpayer getting screwed I refer to the compensation culture that seems widespread in the army - it started with the deafness nonsense which in my opinion has done lasting damage to the image and reputation of the army.
This now extends to soldiers claiming for damages because they were exposed to danger serving overseas or saw disturbing things.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that soldiers from time to time can expect to be in such situations , as intelligent people they know what they are doing when they sign up to join or more to the point when they volunteer to serve overseas.

Whats next ? Suing for repetitive strain injury caused by parade ground foot drill ?

In your haste to slag us off you haven't read the thread, and in particular the posts relevant to the hearing claims and claims for PSTD have you?.

Why not look after your own affairs first...

Police officers seek trauma compensation
Bloody Friday, the Omagh bomb, Enniskillen - the task of dealing with the aftermath of horrific bombings was a fact of many police officers' working lives in Northern Ireland.
Now, about 4,500 serving and former officers are claiming that the force failed to recognise or treat their post traumatic stress disorder.
They are suing the chief constable for millions of pounds.

They claim that their superiors failed to put in place adequate support mechanisms to help them cope with the horrors of the Troubles.

Speaking outside the Belfast court where the case opened on Monday, former detective constable Trevor McIlwrath said many officers suffered in silence.

"You have nightmares. You relive the events you have seen - the murders, the bodies, the body parts you have picked up.

"It all comes back to you. You don't know why or what triggers it.

"It could be a noise, a smell or a dream. I spent six months in a psychiatric hospital after attempting suicide - it just got that bad."

Norman Hamill, a former police inspector, lost a friend in shocking circumstances.

"In October 1996, near Kilrea, I was with a friend and colleague of mine, Reserve Constable Arthur McKay," he said.

"He was literally blown to pieces by a booby trap bomb. I was just a short distance down the road."

He was also present when a man was forced to act as what become known as a "human bomb". He was forced to drive a car loaded with explosives into a checkpoint at Londonderry.

"In October 1990, I was one of the first officers at the Coshquin checkpoint where five soldiers were killed and Patsy Gillespie was used as a human bomb.

"I was extremely busy as you'll understand after that for many hours. It was only the next day when I was having a meal with my family that I had really time to think about what I had seen and what had happened."

Norman Hamill said he was not offered any form of psychological support by the police at that time - the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) - and he was not alone.

He is not taking part in the civil action for personal reasons but he is fully supportive of it.

Irwin Montgomery of the Policing Federation which initiated the proceedings is adamant that the RUC could have done more to help its members.

"People's mental health should have been monitored at that stage.

"They were attending horrendous things which most people thankfully never see in this country. There should have been some form of monitoring in place.

"It was left to people to self refer to occupational health authorities if it was having any effect."

Mr Montgomery said it would have been better if the support mechanisms had been in place so that everyone who had witnessed such traumatic happenings had been offered appropriate counselling.

Mr Montgomery is confident the police officers' case will be successful. It is proceeding as a class action with up to 20 individual cases selected to represent issues common to all the claims.

Alistair Wilson who compiled the stories of a number of victims of the Troubles including police men and women in his book "If Stones Could Speak", met police officers who had been affected by what they had seen.

He recalls one whose colleague was shot dead in front of him while in the course of duty in Castlederg.

"He had no medical help, counselling or anything. He was expected to carry on with his duty. It was only years later , whenever things got too much for him, he had a slight personality disorder and he would have been quite bad tempered... on one occasion he threw a vase.

"It was only in recent years, of his own accord, that he had some medical help," he explained.

But the past left its imprint on the present man.

"He still would not be the person that he was," he said.

And what was that about public opinion of us, how about the opinion of the PSNI from the people who have lodged claims against your guys and the RUC for human rights abuses.. I'll tell ya, you've a neck on ya I'll give you that.

Poccington

delancey42 wrote: »

I never said you or any specific individual ' gouged ' the taxpayer , when I speak of the taxpayer getting screwed I refer to the compensation culture that seems widespread in the army - it started with the deafness nonsense which in my opinion has done lasting damage to the image and reputation of the army.
This now extends to soldiers claiming for damages because they were exposed to danger serving overseas or saw disturbing things.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that soldiers from time to time can expect to be in such situations , as intelligent people they know what they are doing when they sign up to join or more to the point when they volunteer to serve overseas.

Whats next ? Suing for repetitive strain injury caused by parade ground foot drill ?

The "deafness nonsense" stemmed from the DF refusing to issue hearing protection to troops and when some clever folk decided to buy their own, they weren't allowed wear it because it wasn't issued kit.

The deafness claims came about because of negligence on behalf of the Government and the higher ups in the DF. While I'd put money on there being some chancers, the majority of cases involved real cases of people either losing their hearing or coming very close to it, purely down to DF negligence. Anyway, most of those people who made deafness claims would be long gone by now or else on their way out.

As for the PTSD cases, once again the DF refused to deal with lads coming back from the Leb who had been under fire and in some cases, had seen their friends die. Now personally, I can't make a judgement on those men but I personally know of people who took a very long time to adjust back to life after stuff that happened Overseas, with zero help from the DF. Do you think the DF were right to not attempt to treat troops coming back from a place where they had been in combat? The claims had nothing to do with "Oh God, I got shot at" it was to do with lads coming home with their minds ****ed and the DF did nothing to help them. There was less than 40 cases brought against the DF, when the amount of people who have served in the Leb would have been thousands.

So please show me where the compensation culture is widespread in the DF of today?

Delancey

Makikomi , it is disappointing that you seek to use my position as a moderator on another forum against me in the way you have done.

I am entitled to post on After Hours as any user can and not have my position as a mod brought into a debate - I would have thought basic courtesy dictated this..........

p.s. I am not nor never have been a member of the R.U.C. or P.S.N.I.

lmimmfn

i thought it might have been part of the job? or do we have 9-5 defense forces here?

Poccington

lmimmfn wrote: »

i thought it might have been part of the job? or do we have 9-5 defense forces here?

Why, do you know of a Defence Forces where everyone works 24/7 somewhere in the world?

Although, as we speak there's members of the Defence Forces on duty throughout the country.

lmimmfn

Poccington wrote: »

Why, do you know of a Defence Forces where everyone works 24/7 somewhere in the world?

i dont know anyone who works 168 hours a week unless you know different?

Über Micro PCs

What is the point of the defence forces of this country anyway?
As a national defence force they would be useless against any army capable of reaching our shores.

Need snow cleared?
Pay the council more.

Need to protect security vans?
Get the banks to pay a private security company.

The only useful purpose they serve as far as I can see is in diplomacy,joining in with other countries in their peacekeeping activities.

Kiera

Über Micro PCs wrote: »

What is the point of the defence forces of this country anyway?
As a national defence force they would be useless against any army capable of reaching our shores.

Need snow cleared?
Pay the council more.

Need to protect security vans?
Get the banks to pay a private security company.

The only useful purpose they serve as far as I can see is in diplomacy,joining in with other countries in their peacekeeping activities.

Hey! They also put sand bags on our sea-sides when we're meant to get floods. That's heavy work, dude!

lmimmfn

Über Micro PCs wrote: »

What is the point of the defence forces of this country anyway?
As a national defence force they would be useless against any army capable of reaching our shores.

Need snow cleared?
Pay the council more.

Need to protect security vans?
Get the banks to pay a private security company.

The only useful purpose they serve as far as I can see is in diplomacy,joining in with other countries in their peacekeeping activities.

they protect us if someone invades between 9:00 and 17:00 excluding lunchtime and maybe breakfast, bank holidays, christmas break, easter etc.

Über Micro PCs

Kiera wrote: »

Hey! They also put sand bags on our sea-sides when we're meant to get floods. That's heavy work, dude!

I know your being funny but yet again thats a job for council workers.
Soldiers should be out fighting not doing that crap but then the army always gets used to do things the police or other public services supposedly cannot handle.
They are a free work force sort of like doleheads that get forced to do Tidy Towns work lol.
I feel sorry for you guys but its better than getting shot at isnt it?

Poccington

lmimmfn wrote: »

i dont know anyone who works 168 hours a week unless you know different?

Exactly.

Which is why your "Do we have a 9-5 Defence Forces" question was completely redundant.

lmimmfn

Poccington wrote: »

Exactly.

Which is why your "Do we have a 9-5 Defence Forces" question was completely redundant.

not really, i mean unless wars just run 9-5? otherwise if thats the case yeah its redundant

Poccington

lmimmfn wrote: »

not really, i mean unless wars just run 9-5? otherwise if thats the case yeah its redundant

:rolleyes:

Defence Forces across the world work normal hours.

War is a rather exceptional case and "working hours" would be gone out the window.

lmimmfn

Poccington wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Defence Forces across the world work normal hours.

War is a rather exceptional case and "working hours" would be gone out the window.

:rolleyes: would have thought something like heavy snow and exceptionally low temperatures would throw normal working hours out the window, but based on your post, that doesnt matter to our armed services, so if anyone needs help at 17:01 they better hope for someone else.

Overheal

lmimmfn wrote: »

:rolleyes: would have thought something like heavy snow and exceptionally low temperatures would throw normal working hours out the window, but based on your post, that doesnt matter to our armed services, so if anyone needs help at 17:01 they better hope for someone else.

Only when a State of Emergency is declared.

Was a State of Emergency declared?

Furthermore is this the job description of the Irish Armed Forces? I know in the United States it's usually the Municipal Sanitation Departments/Transit Authorities - not the National Guard.

Also: the 17:01 example is a little redundant. There are active Military Personnel day and night, they just happen to work in regular shift rotation.

arybvtcw0eolkf

delancey42 wrote: »

Makikomi , it is disappointing that you seek to use my position as a moderator on another forum against me in the way you have done.

I am entitled to post on After Hours as any user can and not have my position as a mod brought into a debate - I would have thought basic courtesy dictated this..........

p.s. I am not nor never have been a member of the R.U.C. or P.S.N.I.

I'm pointing out the fact that as a PSNI moderator your representing the PSNI here on boards.ie and have not in fact used your position of being a moderator against you.

Had I done that I'd have mentioned in reply to your first post that I was disappointed that a moderator should come here and troll, instead I used the report button.

I still think you've a neck on ya, and used this thread to take a cheap shot at our defence forces.. Tbh, and not because your a moderator but because until now I've respected you and your posts.

But I said earlier that being a member of the defence forces is a unique bond, and I won't sit back here and let someone slag us off, regardless who you are.. And indeed, it cuts deeper when someone I have respect for does it.

Most of the other negative replies in this thread are from accounts I'm unfamiliar with, and I'm hardly likely to remember them again.

Another thing, as a poster in the Emergence Services Forum I'm sure your well aware that people in the emergence services, including members of the defence forces are very restricted on what we post in a public forum in relation to the unseen nature of our work.

So don't come here slagging us off knowing that we're fighting with our hands tied behind our backs.

Poccington has had the patience of a saint in this thread, trying to answer the most ridiculous alligations and questions.. I don't have his patience for Tom Foolery (I'm being nice here and choosing my words carefully). Tbh, he's to be applauded IMO.

I 'tend to call a spade a spade when I see it.

I hope that makes me position clear.

BostonB

I am completely baffled why ye can't discuss the subject in the topic, rather than rambling and raving about about things that have nothing to do with it.

BostonB

Overheal wrote: »

... I know in the United States it's usually the Municipal Sanitation Departments/Transit Authorities - not the National Guard....

We just had weather thats worse than anything on record. How is that not an unusual situation, requiring extra ordinary measures?

http://www.whsv.com/home/headlines/Virginia_National_Guard_Prepares_For_Snow_Recovery_Operations__112470759.html

As of early Sunday morning, the Virginia National Guard has approximately 100 soldiers staged and ready to provide support to emergency response organizations in the Hampton Roads area after being authorized to bring up to 250 personnel on state active duty starting December 25.

Virginia Guard personnel began staging personnel Saturday evening and conducted maintenance checks of their equipment in order to ready to respond early Sunday.

An additional 50 personnel are on duty in Sandston, Richmond and Fort Pickett to provide command and control, maintenance operations and other logistical support.

Additional personnel have been alerted for possible duty and will be held in reserve for possible future missions.

Soldiers were preparing Sunday morning to possibly conduct route reconnaissance patrols in Humvees to assess road conditions in the Hampton Roads area, said Col. Gerald T. Catrett, joint operations officer for the Virginia Guard.

Other typical Virginia Guard missions for this situation would be transporting emergency services personnel through heavy snow or high water, transporting citizens to shelters, assisting stranded motorists and transporting supplies, he said.

http://www.newbernsj.com/articles/soldiers-93484-duty-guard.html

N.C. National Guard soldiers were called to State Active Duty Saturday to assist in winter storm operations.

Thirty-four soldiers reported Christmas night to armories in Butner, Rocky Mount, Elizabeth City, Winterville and Mount Olive. Soldiers will prepare to help provide transportation, recovery, or other missions as required by N.C. Emergency Management and emergency response officials.

Each location will have two HUMVEEs and four Guardsmen to assist in operations. Additional soldiers will be on duty maintain armories for the HUMVEE teams. The HUMVEE teams, mainly from the 514th and 1132nd Military Police Companies of 60th Troop Command, are based out of Winterville and Rocky Mount respectively. However, support personnel from the 113th Sustainment Brigade and 130th Maneuver Enhancement Brigade will open armories for the teams. All Guardsmen arrived at National Guard Armories last night around 9:00pm and will prepare for upcoming operations. How long the Guardsmen stay on duty will depend on the need, but Soldiers are preparing to stay on duty for three days.

In December 2009, and January of this year, about 50 Guardsmen in were called to assist the N.C. State Highway Patrol, rescuing stranded motorists and transporting them to safety. The Guard has mobilized for numerous winter storms and brings a great deal of knowledge and expertise to these types of operations. State duty missions are coordinated through N.C. Emergency Management.

I don't think its as unusual as you are suggesting.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BostonB wrote: »

I am completely baffled why ye can't discuss the subject in the topic, rather than rambling and raving about about things that have nothing to do with it.

See, the original questions have been answered time and again, and ignored time and again. I'm not going to repeat it, like I said I don't have Poccington's patience.

BostonB

The main issue is this part of the DF role, which it obviously is, as theres an allowance in place for it. So then the issue really is can the country (which is broke) afford to keep paying extra allowances to the public sector, when extra payments, overtime, allowances, have been stopped across many areas.

BostonB

Daphne Straight Upstart wrote: »

See, the original questions have been answered time and again, and ignored time and again. I'm not going to repeat it, like I said I don't have Poccington's patience.

That no excuse for introducing stuff thats got nothing to do with it.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

BostonB wrote: »

The main issue is this part of the DF role, which it obviously is, as theres an allowance in place for it. So then the issue really is can the country (which is broke) afford to keep paying extra allowances to the public sector, when extra payments, overtime, allowances, have been stopped across many areas.

I suggest you start a new thread in "Irish Economy" if you want to broaden your discussion to include other PS Department & allowances and if the country can sustain them. We have already gone badly off topic here (including myself).


TBH, the "Army looking for more payment" discussion is over. I feel we have covered all bases here and that there is very little more to be said. ACA duties were carried out and ACA duties are payable, it doesnt get more clearer than that.

Micky Dolenz

biko wrote: »

Can we keep this on a single issue, the payments?
Swipes at DF in general will be met with extreme prejudice (or a slap on the wrist, it's Ireland after all).

Just a reminder.

Yllut

Lumen wrote: »

My impression from following a few similar discussions over the years is that squaddies in general don't really appreciate being asked to do other people's jobs for them, for free. I cannot really muster any righteous indignation about this.

We don't pay them massive amounts of money. Their job involves spending a fair bit of time in uncomfortably hot places populated by angry people with guns, and occasionally getting shot at. I imagine that must be a bit stressful.

Are there not more worthwhile targets for slagging?

So shoveling a bit of snow should be like therapy for the to help them relax.
Why would they want money for that. :cool::cool:

Overheal

BostonB wrote: »

We just had weather thats worse than anything on record. How is that not an unusual situation, requiring extra ordinary measures?

http://www.whsv.com/home/headlines/Virginia_National_Guard_Prepares_For_Snow_Recovery_Operations__112470759.html




http://www.newbernsj.com/articles/soldiers-93484-duty-guard.html



I don't think its as unusual as you are suggesting.

And while VA and NC activated their National Guard, did Ireland "Activate" The IDF or did these troops simply roll up their sleeves without being asked, and is that why they are looking at the compensation issue? I think the issue being raised is that some soldiers were working a dozen or more overtime hours last week with no expectation of additional pay, which was then followed up by PDForra as a formal request to the Government.

So again the question becomes did, or when, did the Govt activate the defense forces or declare a state of emergency that would have otherwise required these soldiers to work overtime?

Poccington

BostonB wrote: »

That no excuse for introducing stuff thats got nothing to do with it.

You mean stuff like the deafness claims, PTSD claims, "Sure they do **** all anyway!" or "The DF are gouging the taxpayer"?

This topic ceased to be a discussion on the merits of the ACA Allowance being payable to certain members of the DF a long time ago.

BostonB

Overheal wrote: »

And while VA and NC activated their National Guard, did Ireland "Activate" The IDF or did these troops simply roll up their sleeves without being asked, and is that why they are looking at the compensation issue? I think the issue being raised is that some soldiers were working a dozen or more overtime hours last week with no expectation of additional pay, which was then followed up by PDForra as a formal request to the Government.

So again the question becomes did, or when, did the Govt activate the defense forces or declare a state of emergency that would have otherwise required these soldiers to work overtime?

This was posted earlier...I've edited it slightly...

benwavner wrote: »

...

This is what happened, ....

Step 1 - The GS, HSE, city/county councils request assistance from the DF

Step 2 - The request for assistance comes in and is prioitised

Step 3 - Troops are mobilised as Aid to The Civil Power (ATCP)

Step 4 - ATCP is completed and troops may be entitled to ATCP allowance.

End of.

They don't overtime, as has pointed out previously.

Its also the troops on call, not the ones clearing the snow that the union is requesting this payment for. The ones clearing the snow got it automatically (I assume).