Protest March 27/11/2010

gazzer

zig wrote: »

Tbf, it was common knowledge that alot if not the majority were going to protest the government as opposed to going with the unions, the whole 'im not going cause of unions' argument didnt really cut it by the Friday, it was just being used as an excuse for people not have to go.

I agree. A few of my friends where using that argument and I said to them that I was going just as a citizen of this country who was so enraged by what the government was doing. I didnt march with any union group. I marched with my friends who bothered to come in.

sensibleken

I was interviewed for some Italian news crew. Cant find a link anywhere. Would love to know what i sound like in Italian

Eramen

Mark200 wrote: »

How are FG "just as bad"?

Labour are opposite to what O'Leary would represent. They don't care about inefficiency as long as people get to keep their inefficient jobs.

The only notable difference between Labour and FG on our economic problems and specifically the budget is that the former believe shaving 6 bn in public services is a tad overboard, and would most certainly prefer cutting expenditure by a mere 4.5 bn. They are essentially arguing over a 1.5 bn difference that is contained in their so-called 'recovery' planning. The truth is 4.5 bn to also absurdly high and are now arguing in order to present themselves to the public as some sort of genuine alternative to the status-quo.. which is completely false.

So this is our main political 'choice', and it is definite lunacy to even consider using that word. They seem to have no idea of how to fix things, because they have ignored how we got here (maybe because they are as much to blame as FF). It is almost certainly foreseeable that if FG or Lab were in power over the last few years we would be in the exact same situation.

On the subject on the march, I was there, but we must see that holding cardboard signs and bleating rhetoric doesn't actually do anything. It may look good, and we might feel that we are 'achieving' something, but the truth is we are no closer to our intended goal, if we have any that is, excepting getting across that we are displeased. In the end protests are masturbation. It will not stop our government or anyone else from doing what they plan on doing.

Real action must be taken, but there are no takers among the populace. For instance a tax revolt regarding new taxes which will be levied in the budget would be an solid 'we're not having this!', but then against this action 'costs' a person something, something which most will not pay. We would rather plod about in town with signs and go home believing we were involved in some dramatic nation-changing event.

I am aware that we have no real alternative leadership to carry this out specifically, but that just again points out the faults in modern Irish attitudes. There are more than enough dissatisfied, well-meaning people in this nation to compose a competent, effective opposition, but sure, even we all did something 'it wouldn't make a difference anyway'.

And don't get me wrong I'm not having a go at protesting, or people who attend them (I was there myself), because there is a place for marches and the like, it's just not enough and must go hand-in-hand with other activities. Let's be realistic.

TwoShedsJackson

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

FG are just as bad.

They're actually not, they didn't destroy the country's finances.

Mark200

gazzer wrote: »

I didnt march with any union group.

Well in reality, you did.

Eramen wrote: »

The only notable difference between Labour and FG on our economic problems and specifically the budget is that the former believe shaving 6 bn in public services is a tad overboard, and would most certainly prefer cutting expenditure by a mere 4.5 bn. They are essentially arguing over a 1.5 bn difference that is contained in their so-called 'recovery' planning. The truth is 4.5 bn to also absurdly high and are now arguing in order to present themselves to the public as some sort of genuine alternative to the status-quo.. which is completely false.

So this is our main political 'choice', and it is definite lunacy to even consider using that word. They seem to have no idea of how to fix things, because they have ignored how we got here (maybe because they are as much to blame as FF). It is almost certainly foreseeable that if FG or Lab were in power over the last few years we would be in the exact same situation.

I agree that we would probably be in a similar situation right now regardless of who won the last general election. However, really FG have published fairly good plans to tackle the current situation we're now in. The problem is that the plans they've released are very long, where as your average voter is really only interested in 30 second sound-bytes rather than dozens of pages of detail.

The New Era and Reinventing Government documents are their two main policy documents on what they would change. Between them they are over 100 pages long, and policies include tactically selling state assets to finance a stimulus and completely restructuring the healthcare system and abolishing the Senate.

We don't have a choice other than to make serious cuts. But the difference between FF and FG is that with FF the axe is falling randomly, whereas FG seem to have a fairly good plan as to where the axe should be focused.

Eramen wrote: »

In the end protests are masturbation.

Yeah because you know what's coming.

CDfm

Mark200 wrote: »

How are FG "just as bad"?

Labour are opposite to what O'Leary would represent. They don't care about inefficiency as long as people get to keep their inefficient jobs.

So thats Labour -protect the public servants at all cost even when they are at fault.

FG are a party based on Civil War politics and as such nobody really knows where they stand other than being an alternative to FF.

So if they want power they plan to do so with labour and we will have no changes at all. FF and croneyism in all but name.

Where are an alternative to FF seems to be the extent of the policies they have. Thats unreal from an opposition party.

If Fine Gael want power they should want it under their own steam and if there was an election I guess the next 5 years would be listening to but we are clearing up the FF mess.

Where is the clear vision.

Mark200

CDfm wrote: »

So thats Labour -protect the public servants at all cost even when they are at fault.

FG are a party based on Civil War politics and as such nobody really knows where they stand other than being an alternative to FF.

So if they want power they plan to do so with labour and we will have no changes at all. FF and croneyism in all but name.

Where are an alternative to FF seems to be the extent of the policies they have. Thats unreal from an opposition party.

If Fine Gael want power they should want it under their own steam and if there was an election I guess the next 5 years would be listening to but we are clearing up the FF mess.

Where is the clear vision.

In the post above yours I linked to their two main documents on reform. I really don't see at all how FG are a party based on Civil War politics. Sure, that's how they were founded, but they've evolved from that. I don't like how they seem to have to oppose almost everything Fianna Fail does but that's the politics of being an opposition party. Nothing to do with the civil war. You'll see the exact same thing happening between the Conservatives and Labour in the UK, or the Democrats and Republicans in the US. However there were rumours that FG would abstain from the budget vote if they thought that the budget wouldn't pass otherwise... which is a step in the right direction.

And FG without a doubt want power under their own steam. No one in FG wants to be in Government with a left-wing party.

CDfm

Mark200 wrote: »

In the post above yours I linked to their two main documents on reform. I really don't see at all how FG are a party based on Civil War politics.Sure, that's how they were founded, but they've evolved from that. I don't like how they seem to have to oppose almost everything Fianna Fail does but that's the politics of being an opposition party.

Well, would they say they will only go into government if their coallition partners sign up to their policies or will they turn into professional backsliders

Nothing to do with the civil war.

And political dynasts like Enda Kenny did not inherit their seats :rolleyes:

You'll see the exact same thing happening between the Conservatives and Labour in the UK, or the Democrats and Republicans in the US. However there were rumours that FG would abstain from the budget vote if they thought that the budget wouldn't pass otherwise... which is a step in the right direction.

That is fence sitting. They either sign up to the IMF/EU deal or they don't.

We don't need another politician who will lie their way into office, as we saw earlier in the thread, the unions appointees to the Central Bank, FAS and Aer Lingus all reverted to type.

And FG without a doubt want power under their own steam. No one in FG wants to be in Government with a left-wing party.

But with a whiff of power they would revert to it.

The best leader they never had in recent years was Ivan Yeats - opportunity missed.

Arcus Arrow

CDfm wrote: »

LOL Arcus

Very tongue in cheek.

Our previous booms 50-60's and the celtic Tiger were from the Marshall Plan & EU.

Stuff the bondholders - that could have been done originally but not now. It would result in a credit crunch that would last 10 years or more and real austerity.
[/I][/B]

Not if we implement all I listed in the previous post. We'd be taking in so much money the next set of bondholders would be lining up to lend. Greed has no principles.

And another idea to turn ghost estates into goldmines:
End the farcical situation where sex between adults is illegal. Legalise, regulate, licence and tax all sex professionals. Ryanair can fly the customers in with all the extra planes they'll be buying.

The natural desire to gain would outlive the bondholders who lost. New ones would take their place. Investing in stocks and shared didn't end once and for all after the Great Depression or Black Monday.

sensibleken

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

.

End the farcical situation where sex between adults is illegal.
.

It is? I like a bit of danger.

oh. also, your ma et cetra

CDfm

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Not if we implement all I listed in the previous post. We'd be taking in so much money the next set of bondholders would be lining up to lend. Greed has no principles.

And another idea to turn ghost estates into goldmines:
End the farcical situation where sex between adults is illegal. Legalise, regulate, licence and tax all sex professionals. Ryanair can fly the customers in with all the extra planes they'll be buying.

The natural desire to gain would outlive the bondholders who lost. New ones would take their place. Investing in stocks and shared didn't end once and for all after the Great Depression or Black Monday.

I like it Arcus - it should no problem - we have no shortage of pimps

prinz

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

And another idea to turn ghost estates into goldmines: End the farcical situation where sex between adults is illegal. Legalise, regulate, licence and tax all sex professionals. Ryanair can fly the customers in with all the extra planes they'll be buying..

Become a sex tourist destination. Classy.:rolleyes:

Mark200

CDfm wrote: »

Well, would they say they will only go into government if their coallition partners sign up to their policies or will they turn into professional backsliders

So if you were running a political party, and you had a choice of going into Government with another party and getting some of your policies into law or staying in opposition and getting none of your policies into law, what would you do?

If you truly believed that your policies were the best policies for the country then it would be foolish to not pick the first option unless your Government partners would be someone that you could just not morally Govern with... eg Sinn Fein.

CDfm wrote: »

And political dynasts like Enda Kenny did not inherit their seats :rolleyes:

I must be missing something... what has that got to do with the civil war? The same thing happens in other countries. Eg the Clintons or Kennedys in the US.

CDfm wrote: »

That is fence sitting. They either sign up to the IMF/EU deal or they don't.

We don't need another politician who will lie their way into office, as we saw earlier in the thread, the unions appointees to the Central Bank, FAS and Aer Lingus all reverted to type.

First of all, the budget is not the same as the IMF/EU deal. I'd hope that they'd let the budget through whether we had applied for a bailout or not, as the country needs certainty at the moment. I don't completely agree that it's sitting on the fence. They don't agree with Fianna Fails budget, but they think their budget is better than no budget. So I think abstaining is the most reasonable way to 'vote' since they don't support the budget, but the country can't afford to go several months without one.

CDfm wrote: »

But with a whiff of power they would revert to it.

As I said already, it's not necessarily anything to do with power. If you believe your policies are right for the country then there's nothing wrong with compromising to get some of them into law instead of staying in opposition.

I do agree that they have too often resorted to politics as usual in how they go after the Government, but that is nothing more than a (poor) attempt to pander to the populist movement. That doesn't change their policies and all the good things that they will do if given the chance. Your main problem seems to be that they'd be willing to go into Government with Labour... yet you're planning on voting Labour (who would be willing to go into Government with FG). If Fine Gael get enough votes there will be no need for a coalition.

CDfm

prinz wrote: »

Become a sex tourist destination. Classy.:rolleyes:

Arcus's idea has some merit.

We have had no shame so far.

A new low I know -but an honest one.

sensibleken

prinz wrote: »

Become a sex tourist destination. Classy.:rolleyes:

feckin blatant exploitation!

de rich can den get de roid offa de classy birds while the pooer workin man has to make do with slappin his mickey off de lampost!

RISE FOR DE ROID COMRADES

Johro

sensibleken wrote: »

feckin blatant exploitation!

de rich can den get de roid offa de classy birds while the pooer workin man has to make do with slappin his mickey off de lampost!

RISE FOR DE ROID COMRADES

You can carry that banner on your own.

sensibleken

Johro wrote: »

You can carry that banner on your own.

I cant. me hands are too hairy

Dionysus

When is the next protest? I was there on Saturday and was very impressed with the turnout given the snow and cold. Fintan O'Toole spoke with great conviction and heart. I never had much time for him until last Saturday.

CDfm

Mark200 wrote: »

So if you were running a political party, and you had a choice of going into Government with another party and getting some of your policies into law or staying in opposition and getting none of your policies into law, what would you do?

Policies have nothing to do with it -it is what is best for the country.

If FG have a choice of going into government with Labour what will happen is that the fine policies will be thrown in the bin and they will be Fianna Fail over again.

If you truly believed that your policies were the best policies for the country then it would be foolish to not pick the first option unless your Government partners would be someone that you could just not morally Govern with... eg Sinn Fein.

I believe that there is very little room for discretion by any government.

I must be missing something... what has that got to do with the civil war? The same thing happens in other countries. Eg the Clintons or Kennedys in the US.

You know what I am talking about and we are not America but much smaller a country the size of Greater Manchester.Currently we have 6 or so teachers in the cabinet.

First of all, the budget is not the same as the IMF/EU deal. I'd hope that they'd let the budget through whether we had applied for a bailout or not, as the country needs certainty at the moment. I don't completely agree that it's sitting on the fence. They don't agree with Fianna Fails budget, but they think their budget is better than no budget. So I think abstaining is the most reasonable way to 'vote' since they don't support the budget, but the country can't afford to go several months without one.

OMG - I just don't believe this, having refused the opportunity to contribute on an agreed budget, the idea is power for FG irrespective of what it costs the country.

As I said already, it's not necessarily anything to do with power. If you believe your policies are right for the country then there's nothing wrong with compromising to get some of them into law instead of staying in opposition.

Tum te tum.

I do agree that they have too often resorted to politics as usual in how they go after the Government, but that is nothing more than a (poor) attempt to pander to the populist movement. That doesn't change their policies and all the good things that they will do if given the chance. Your main problem seems to be that they'd be willing to go into Government with Labour... yet you're planning on voting Labour (who would be willing to go into Government with FG). If Fine Gael get enough votes there will be no need for a coalition.

I dont know how I will vote but if a Blonde Party started I will vote for it.

All it would need to be able to say is that there is not enough money in the purse and anything else is too complicated.

Oh , and the ability to smile and say "No" would be a very good too.

I think for a small country like ours our system of government and the policies we adopt are far too complicated.
No disrespect to Blondes

Arcus Arrow

prinz wrote: »

Become a sex tourist destination. Classy.:rolleyes:

It would mean keeping at home all the money spent by Irishmen in the brothels of Europe while on "golf trips" and stag parties. And it would be another dent in the collective Irish hypocrisy industry.

Ireland is in hock to Germany. Brothels are legal in Germany.

Arcus Arrow

CDfm wrote: »

I like it Arcus - it should no problem - we have no shortage of pimps

We'd have an inbuilt advantage over any other country: this place is just crawlin' with cute hoors!

By the time the customers arrive and find out exactly what a cute hoor is in Irish terms it'll be too late, we'll already have their money. Given the divergent sexual tastes of humans it might even be a big revenue raiser to let our politicians get screwed by someone else instead of them screwing the rest of the country.

prinz

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

It would mean keeping at home all the money spent by Irishmen in the brothels of Europe while on "golf trips" and stag parties. And it would be another dent in the collective Irish hypocrisy industry..

All that money eh? Funny I've been on a few lads trips and stags... and nothing was spent on prostitution.

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Ireland is in hock to Germany. Brothels are legal in Germany.

We're not in hock to Germany, we're in hock to massive banks from a variety of countries. Ever been to a red light area in Germany btw?

Sonnenblumen

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

It would mean keeping at home all the money spent by Irishmen in the brothels of Europe while on "golf trips" and stag parties. And it would be another dent in the collective Irish hypocrisy industry.

Ireland is in hock to Germany. Brothels are legal in Germany.

...a race to the bottom or self flagellation?

Arcus Arrow

prinz wrote: »

All that money eh? Funny I've been on a few lads trips and stags... and nothing was spent on prostitution.

Therefore since you haven't seen it then it never happens....

prinz wrote: »

We're not in hock to Germany, we're in hock to massive banks from a variety of countries. Ever been to a red light area in Germany btw?

Figures from the Bank for International Settlements in Basel suggest Irish banks and companies owed $139bn (€104bn) to German banks in June and a further $132bn to British banks at the end of June.

Arcus Arrow

Stem Cell Research
Millions of dollars are pent up across the world because of irrational religious objections to stem cell research: so legalise it in Ireland with a 25% corporation tax.

Resident non-residents.
If you are born in Ireland and hold an Irish passport then you pay tax no matter where you live in the world: hello Denis O, Tony O and Mr Smurfit.

Fraud.
Make all political corruption retro to the foundation of the State. Have the CAB investigate every TD, Planner and developer, Traveller and anybody else who fits the bill.

Since previous laws providing tax amnesty's were put in place by a corrupt political system make all those who turned up smirking at the Revenue Commissioners liable to penalties.

Superstition Tax.
Tax every penny organised religions take in. Make the CCL provide audited accounts and tax them the same as any company minus what they can prove goes directly to no strings charity.

Euthanasia
By now people who are fatally incapacitated in the US, Europe and in other countries want the right to die: so legalise it.

Reefer Revenue.
Legalise marijuana and tax it like smokes. Amsterdam hasn't imploded as far as I know.

Lingo dosh.
Review the English language and add in accents, umlauts, fadas, cedillas (whatever you want to call them) Then we could fill all those empty ghost estates with foreign language students. That would take in a billion a year and thanks to NAMA we already own the properties.

There ought to be a few billion in that list. No march needed.

prinz

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Figures from the Bank for International Settlements in Basel suggest Irish banks and companies owed $139bn (€104bn) to German banks in June and a further $132bn to British banks at the end of June.

Yeah thanks for backing up my point. Banks being the operative word. You could throw French in there as well for a few billion. You didn't answer the question either..

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Stem Cell Research
Millions of dollars are pent up across the world because of irrational religious objections to stem cell research: so legalise it in Ireland with a 25% corporation tax..

Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with Research and Development tax breaks in this country. You don't tax money that is spent.

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Resident non-residents.
If you are born in Ireland and hold an Irish passport then you pay tax no matter where you live in the world: hello Denis O, Tony O and Mr Smurfit...

What happens Paddy who works in an Irish bar in Belgium and already pays high taxes to the Belgian state. He should be taxed again?

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Fraud.
Make all political corruption retro to the foundation of the State. Have the CAB investigate every TD, Planner and developer, Traveller and anybody else who fits the bill. Since previous laws providing tax amnesty's were put in place by a corrupt political system make all those who turned up smirking at the Revenue Commissioners liable to penalties....

Yay let's investigate a brown envelope passing hands, allegedly, in 1922. Then what?

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Superstition Tax.
Tax every penny organised religions take in. Make the CCL provide audited accounts and tax them the same as any company minus what they can prove goes directly to no strings charity.

If you are going to tax organised religions, you'd presumably have to give them the status of companies. This doesn't work, hence your plan doesn't work.

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Euthanasia
By now people who are fatally incapacitated in the US, Europe and in other countries want the right to die: so legalise it..

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Reefer Revenue.
Legalise marijuana and tax it like smokes. Amsterdam hasn't imploded as far as I know...

Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the laws surrounding marijuana in Amsterdam... and no it's not simply 'legalised' there... and some towns are starting to ban 'coffee shops' altogether.

Arcus Arrow wrote: »

Lingo dosh.
Review the English language and add in accents, umlauts, fadas, cedillas (whatever you want to call them) Then we could fill all those empty ghost estates with foreign language students. That would take in a billion a year and thanks to NAMA we already own the properties..

Seems you started on the mj early.

steddyeddy

prinz wrote: »

All that money eh? Funny I've been on a few lads trips and stags... and nothing was spent on prostitution.



We're not in hock to Germany, we're in hock to massive banks from a variety of countries. Ever been to a red light area in Germany btw?

our banks are in hock to germany

prinz

steddyeddy wrote: »

our banks are in hock to germany

German banks. They owe more to British banks and finance houses.

Arcus Arrow

In Ireland, no matter what, the root cause blocking any solution will always be the people who suffer a complete lack of original thinking. The ones who have a problem for every solution rather than a better or improved proposal.... People who hate change because they can't see beyond it. The Dail is full of them. The CCL has mastered the art of cloning them. That's why they run 92% of our schools.

prinz wrote: »

Yeah thanks for backing up my point. Banks being the operative word. You could throw French in there as well for a few billion. You didn't answer the question either..

It's like this: Joe is in hock to Bottler. He's in hock to Bottler even if he's also in hock to Scarface! Bottler still wants his money. Joe says "But I owe money to Frenchie as well"... Bottler still wants his money..

prinz wrote: »

Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with Research and Development tax breaks in this country. You don't tax money that is spent.

Corporation tax is levied on corporations. For example a corporation providing euthanasia services.

prinz wrote: »

What happens Paddy who works in an Irish bar in Belgium and already pays high taxes to the Belgian state. He should be taxed again?

A deliberate attempt to misunderstand there I'd say. Mick O'Brien, Smurfit and Co are hardly in the same league as a barman.

prinz wrote: »

Yay let's investigate a brown envelope passing hands, allegedly, in 1922. Then what?

Eh use the revenue, name the perpetrators, put the system in the spotlight, make people aware of how it works so every time it happens again the gombeen men reported.

prinz wrote: »

If you are going to tax organised religions, you'd presumably have to give them the status of companies. This doesn't work, hence your plan doesn't work.

You know already beforehand that something not being done doesn't work!

A man named Randi has a million dollars for you!

Better to give them the status of companies than allow them to freeload on the tax system.

The Catholic Church Limited: sounds rather appropriate I think.

prinz wrote: »

Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the laws surrounding marijuana in Amsterdam... and no it's not simply 'legalised' there... and some towns are starting to ban 'coffee shops' altogether.

Details, little details....

There are dry counties still in the US. So what?

prinz wrote: »

Seems you started on the mj early.

The one about language is way out in terms of originality to the average mind. Not so much that it's not easily possible, with a little effort, but in as much as short view thinkers couldn't even begin to see it.

But we won't be getting out of this economic hole any time soon. There won't be any significant amount of original thinking or imaginative solutions. Overall it's not that kind of country on the greater collective level.

The "No ya can't" "No, it won't" types are far too numerous.

I blame the CCL run school system.

Arcus Arrow

prinz wrote: »

German banks. They owe more to British banks and finance houses.

When one countries owes money to another country they owe it to its banks. You surely don't imagine that Angela Merkel would be arriving with a suitcase stuffed with banknotes if Ireland wanted to borrow from Germany. Governments don't keep stacks of money under ministers beds.